The "Big Three", Their Correlated Diseases, and Natures Cure

[OverMachoGrande]

Lord_Justin13 wrote:
Bryan wrote:
Lord_Justin13 wrote:
Bryan wrote:
You're claiming that 5a-reductase binds to SHBG? Really?

Please note:
http://www.androgeneticalopecia.com/hai ... ness.shtml

...Additionally, in humans Ketoconazole has also been shown to inhibit the binding of 5 -reductase to sex hormone globulins.[...]


Quote:
I'll have to let you off the hook for that, since you were only quoting the link above. However, what they say is ridiculous. SHBG doesn't bind to 5a-reductase! What they probably MEANT to say is that ketoconazole inhibits the binding of SHBG to sex hormones, which is obviously quite another matter. They got their facts all screwed-up!


Is that your opinion?
How is what they say ridiculous?
Please provide evidence to support your claim.


I don't think SHBG even enters cells, so there's no way it can bind with 5a-reductase. If you know otherwise, cite the evidence from a medical journal article or study.

I cited the website above, if that's not enough for you, too bad.

from their site;

Androgenetic alopecia . com provides the most important information you need to know about androgen induced hair loss, but much more information is available on other sites. Sometimes our viewpoint differs from other web sites and it is worth reviewing several sites to get a rounded view of hair loss and the treatments available.

They said, a new school of thought, you know, maybe that means they are breaking the barrier on older, more linear ways of medical research.

You know, the earth was flat once too....

Lord_Justin13 wrote:
Bryan wrote:
Lord_Justin13 wrote:
Quote:
After being processed by the liver, Finasteride makes it's way to the 'water' system, where it moves into the prostate and prevents an important natural enzyme from being created, through the unnatural down regulation of the 5-alpha reductase.

AGAIN: give us a medical reference or citation for that.

10th grade, Human Biology, But hey, maybe I'm wrong, I mean it could be eaten by the liver, then moved to the lungs where you exhale the drug.

What the hell is THAT supposed to mean? Do you have a medical reference, or not?

It means what I said, it's in regards to how the human body naturally functions, I can't help how food/water is processed.


"It means what I said"?? Is that the best you can do?

Okay, again, let's try to finish the sentance,

It means what I said, it's in regards to how the human body naturally functions, I can't help how food/water is processed.

Come on Bryan, there's this thing called evolution. These days we speak in complete sentences.

Lord_Justin13 wrote:
Bryan wrote:
Lord_Justin13 wrote:
Quote:
Lord_Justin13 wrote:
This is what Finasteride mainly assists with, Through halting the 5-alpha enzyme from being created, thus, there is no catalyst for tesosterone to become DHT.

Again, please give us a medical reference or citation that supports that claim.

http://www.ftmguide.org/hairloss.html#finasteride

There is nothing at that link which supports your claim.


let's take another look shall we?

from the website cited above....,

The drug Finasteride was initially prescribed to men in the United States under the drug name "Proscar" to treat enlarged prostate glands. A side effect of the medication was that it caused hair growth in a significant number of the patients. It is now marketed in the U.S. as "Propecia" to treat mild to moderate hair loss in men.

Ok, ready to read the words with me?

Finasteride is a type II 5-alpha reductase inhibitor. Type II 5-alpha reductase (type II 5aR) is an enzyme that is responsible for converting testosterone into DHT (described in detail above). Finasteride blocks the action of type II 5aR, thereby inhibiting DHT production in the hair follicles. A daily dose of 1mg can effectively lower DHT levels by as much as 60%.

Let me repeat that,

Finasteride is a type II 5-alpha reductase inhibitor.

Finasteride blocks the action of type II 5aR.


Finasteride keeps 5a-reductase from producing DHT by BINDING to it (also known as INHIBITING it). In that way it "blocks" the action of type II 5a-reductase. But it doesn't stop the enzyme from being created. I'm shocked that you don't know that! Anybody who spends any time at all on hairloss sites knows that, probably even most complete newbies.

I do know it, your just upset on how it's presented.

I'll re-quote myself, again, I made a grammatical error, in fact, I'll go back and change it, to something that better suites your English.

The fact is, no matter how I type it, it doesn't change the fact that your penis shrivels after 3 months, PERMANENTLY!

I quote the following website;

http://www.propeciasideeffects.com/

Propecia Side Effects
Propeciasideeffects.com was formed to spread the word about the undocumented potentially irreversible side effects caused by using Propecia (finasteride) 1mg each day. A number of males have suffered erectile dysfunction, impotence, low libido and gynecomestica after using Propecia. The shattering truth for these males is that the side effects did not disappear after ceasing finasteride. The shattering truth is that years later these individuals are still suffering in silence with a seriously reduced quality of life due to erectile dysfunction and impotence. It is not know exactly what causes these changes and how to screen individuals before treatment.

The purpose of this site is to spread the word to others considering using Propecia and also to provide as an informational exchange and gathering place for those who are already suffering.

--They created their own website for men with ruined lives.

LONG TERM SIDE EFFECTS OFFICIAL

January 2009 (Links fixed)

A special investigation of Propecia led by the Swedish Medical Products Agency has resulted in changes to the Prescription Information for Propecia:

Investigation of Propecia by Swedish MPA (Link is in Swedish for English information see link at the end of this article.)

Among the most important changes are (in section 4, "Possible Side Effects"):

"* Persistent difficulty having an erection after discontinuation of treatment.

* Infertility has been reported in men who took finasteride for long time and had other risk factors that may affect fertility. Normalisation or improvement of seminal quality has been reported after discontinuation of finasteride. Long-term clinical studies about the effect of finasteride on fertility in men have not been conducted."


http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2002

Possible CLASS ACTION LAW SUIT (Canada)

October 2008

If you live in Canada and are suffering from unresolved Finasteride side effects despite quitting Propecia or Proscar, CLICK HERE TO REGISTER for a possible class action lawsuit.

Your contact information will be forwarded to a lawyer who may be in touch should the case proceed in the future. http://www.propeciaclassaction.com

more from wikipedia;

Side effects

Side effects of finasteride include impotence (1.1% to 18.5%), abnormal ejaculation (7.2%), decreased ejaculatory volume (0.9% to 2.8%), abnormal sexual function (2.5%), gynecomastia (2.2%), erectile dysfunction (1.3%), ejaculation disorder (1.2%) and testicular pain. Resolution occurred in men who discontinued therapy with finasteride due to these side effects and in most of those who continued therapy.[10]
In December 2008, the Swedish Medical Products agency concluded a safety investigation of Propecia and subsequently advised that the use of Propecia may result in irreversible sexual dysfunction. The Agency's updated safety information lists difficulty in obtaining an erection that persists indefinitely, even after the discontinuation of Propecia, as a possible side effect of the drug.[11] The United Kingdom's Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency also now warn against persistent erectile dysfunction after use of Propecia.[citation needed]
Finasteride is not indicated for use by women. Finasteride is in the FDA pregnancy category X. This means that it is known to cause birth defects in an unborn baby. Women who are or who may become pregnant must not handle crushed or broken finasteride tablets, because the medication could be absorbed through the skin. Finasteride is known to cause birth defects in a developing male baby. Exposure to whole tablets should be avoided whenever possible, however exposure to whole tablets is not expected to be harmful as long as the tablets are not swallowed. It is not known whether finasteride passes into breast milk, and thus should not be taken by breastfeeding women. Finasteride may pass into the semen of men, but Merck states that a pregnant woman's contact with the semen of a man taking finasteride is not an issue for concern.[12] Finasteride is known to affect blood donations, and potential donors are typically restricted for at least a month after their most recent dose.[13]
Finasteride has been linked with depression.[14] The drug also caused reductions in allopregnanolone, a potent, endogenous positive modulator of the GABAA receptor, in very large doses in rodent studies.[15]
Many sports organizations have banned finasteride because it can be used to mask steroid abuse.[16] Since 2005, finasteride has been on the World Anti-Doping Agency's list of banned substances. However, it was removed from the list in 2009.[17] Notable athletes who used finasteride for hair loss and were banned from international competition include skeleton racer Zach Lund, bobsledder Sebastien Gattuso, footballer Romário and ice hockey goaltender José Théodore.[18]
Possible health concerns
The UC Berkeley Wellness Letter expressed concern in March 2003 about the unproven long-term safety of Propecia and recommended cutting a standard 1-milligram dose of Propecia into quarters to reduce the cost without reducing its effectiveness. This claim appears to be supported by clinical pharmacological data reviewed by the FDA during Propecia's approval process that suggested that the advantage of taking 1 mg per day over 0.2 mg per day is statistically small.[19] Some people have unsuccessfully petitioned the FDA to re-examine the approved dosage in light of the statistical evidence and unknown long-term risks.[20] The FDA responded and said that just because the level of DHT found in the scalp was not significantly different does not mean there is a correlation with hair loss. A study would have to show that the benefits of using 0.2 mg and 1 mg were not statistically different. According to the FDA, such a study has been performed, and a 1 mg dose has a greater benefit whilst remaining equally safe. The same study also concluded that doses of 0.01 mg per day were found to be ineffective in treating hair loss.[20]
In December 2009, the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency in the UK announced new drug safety advice on finasteride and the potential risk of male breast cancer. The agency concluded that, although overall incidence of male breast cancer in clinical trials for finasteride 5mg was not significantly increased, a higher risk of male breast cancer with finasteride use cannot be excluded. A warning on this risk will be included in the product information.[21]
:nono:

So...
Canada class action lawsuit, finasteride is banned.
UK, possible ban, warns citizens of high risk side effects.


impotence (1.1% to 18.5%), abnormal ejaculation (7.2%), decreased ejaculatory volume (0.9% to 2.8%), abnormal sexual function (2.5%), gynecomastia (2.2%), erectile dysfunction (1.3%), ejaculation disorder (1.2%) and testicular pain

And how many men have never reported side effects?
How many didn't realize these side effects happened to them while on propecia?
No 'side effect' should be anywhere NEAR 18.5, REPORTED.

Lord_Justin13 wrote:
Quote:
Below are a couple of posts (made on two different occasions) by Jonathon Fromme, over on HLH a few years ago. He is a doctor (pathologist), and wrote these things in support of what I'd been saying over there about the popular Urban Myth that finasteride was supposedly an "accidental discovery":

"Bryan is right--finasteride was CLEARLY designed to treat male pattern baldness. I wrote about this 5 years ago on this site, but I'm not sure the record is available.


I'm sorry, without any medical record, this 'doctor' and you, have no valid proof on the discovery of Finasteride. Consequently, the information I have found shows that Finasteride, was originally treated for enlarged prostate, and upon their use, discovered it's hair growth side effects.


LOL!! You're just going to ignore the evidence that Dr. Fromme presented?

I'm sorry, without any medical record, this 'doctor' and you, have no valid proof on the discovery of Finasteride. Not that I care much anyways.

Lord_Justin13 wrote:
Bryan wrote:
"Sebum secretion and sebaceous lipids." - published in Dermatologic Clinics, Vol. 1, No. 3, July 1983.


This was nearly 30 years ago.
Are you claiming that scientific medical research has reached it's peak, and no new discoveries can be made?!


For a more complete discussion of all the medical evidence against the "feedback theory", read the following threads over on acne.org that I created:

more you created, or your company?

Lord_Justin13 wrote:
Listen shills, first, this forum wasn't created for a debate on the discovery of Finasteride, or whether you can't understand what the post means.
Let me help you understand something, after sifting through your companies 5,000 websites, reading on how propecia so wonderful, I continued writing, and made a grammatical error, that's it, a grammatical error. After seeing (INHIBIT), (RENDERS USELESS) etc.. I just worte down what they said, what YOUR companies said.


I've demonstrated to you that YOU made a completely FALSE claim about finasteride, one that you cannot prove. Let this be a lesson to you to be very very careful what you post on sites like this.

No Bryan, I didn't produce any false claim, please reference back to the original post.

A lesson to me? lol, the only lesson to be learned is to you, The fact is, 'expression' is used in place of 'action' "the enzymes expression".

In 'modern' english, this term is easily understood, as I'm sure post readers have understood it just fine.

Lord_Justin13 wrote:
Sir, I am compelled to ask exactly what it is you do? nearly 6,000 posts, continuous nay-saying of modern research, this bothers me, I suppose only the research you find is valid then?

Oh, and I believe I saw your same name (spelled exactly the same), at another hair loss website.


I post on several hairloss Web sites. That acne site, too.

Oh...You must have a lot of free time to be out defending propecia. Out of curiosity, has your treatment actually worked?

Lord_Justin13 wrote:
Oh yea, and there's an ongoing suspicion that you may be creating several screen names, and flooding this good informative website with more propoganda, and posing to be others, though, I hope that's not true!


LOL!! Is that REALLY what you think, or are you just embarrassed by the errors I brought to your attention, and the new information you got about the development of finasteride, and the properties of sebum?

No, I don't have other screen names. "Bryan Shelton" is my real name, and the only one I've ever used while posting on the Internet.

I could care less about how you view my writing, especially when others could grasp it in one read.

the information I show, is not about the development of finasteride. It's about diseases correlation to male pattern baldness, and how these drugs 'play' along the same route as the manifested disease.

Bryan, I don't care about the sebum. Unless your upset, cause no evidence can be shown for it?

i didn't ask for your "Name", (if that is your realname, who knows, and if it is, and you were indeed shilling, I doubt the company would put you on their "official" records.

 

[OverMachoGrande]

the information I show, is not about the development of finasteride. It's about diseases correlation to male pattern baldness, and how these drugs 'play' along the same route as the manifested disease.

You make a very very good point, I never noticed how the "big three" correlate with atherosclerosis, diabetes, and prostate enlargement a.k.a. "the big three diseases associated with male pattern baldness. You make very interesting points, not only are they interesting, they're true!

 

[Bryan]

I don't think SHBG even enters cells, so there's no way it can bind with 5a-reductase. If you know otherwise, cite the evidence from a medical journal article or study.

I cited the website above, if that's not enough for you, too bad.

The website you cited above isn't necessarily a legitimate medical source, and it sure as hell isn't what I asked for (a medical journal article or study). No, it is NOT good enough for me! I think it's pretty obvious that whoever wrote that part about ketoconazole supposedly inhibiting the binding of SHBG to 5a-reductase simply got confused in the way I described in a previous post.

Again, I challenge you to find a medical journal article or study that says that same thing. Try using PubMed for that. If you can find anything supporting that claim, I'll freely admit that you are correct.

"It means what I said"?? Is that the best you can do?

Okay, again, let's try to finish the sentance,

[quote:1u2ybzde]It means what I said, it's in regards to how the human body naturally functions, I can't help how food/water is processed.

Come on Bryan, there's this thing called evolution. These days we speak in complete sentences. [/quote:1u2ybzde]

Whatever the hell all THAT means! Don't you realize you're just making it worse by not biting the bullet and admitting the mistake you made?

I'll re-quote myself, again, I made a grammatical error, in fact, I'll go back and change it, to something that better suites your English.

You didn't make a grammatical error, you made a FACTUAL ERROR by claiming that finasteride stops the creation of the 5a-reductase enzyme. It doesn't do that. It inhibits the 5a-reductase enzyme, without having any effect on its actual production. The more you try to "spin" your way out of this, the more foolish it makes you look.

Lord_Justin13 wrote:
Quote:
Below are a couple of posts (made on two different occasions) by Jonathon Fromme, over on HLH a few years ago. He is a doctor (pathologist), and wrote these things in support of what I'd been saying over there about the popular Urban Myth that finasteride was supposedly an "accidental discovery":

"Bryan is right--finasteride was CLEARLY designed to treat male pattern baldness. I wrote about this 5 years ago on this site, but I'm not sure the record is available.

I'm sorry, without any medical record, this 'doctor' and you, have no valid proof on the discovery of Finasteride...

Huh? There IS a medical record! The appropriate studies are listed in Dr. Fromme's two posts. Why haven't you commented on them? Is it because you're too embarrassed to do that?

Consequently, the information I have found shows that Finasteride, was originally treated for enlarged prostate, and upon their use, discovered it's hair growth side effects.

All you did was find a couple of sites where somebody repeated the same misinformation as you. They had no knowledge whatsoever of the evidence presented by Dr. Fromme.

For a more complete discussion of all the medical evidence against the "feedback theory", read the following threads over on acne.org that I created:

more you created, or your company?

More _I_ created. I don't have a company.

Oh...You must have a lot of free time to be out defending propecia.

Yes, I do have a lot of free time.

Out of curiosity, has your treatment actually worked?

I've never used finasteride; but yes, my treatments (when I use them) have worked.

I could care less about how you view my writing, especially when others could grasp it in one read.

How would YOU know what they could grasp? Hell, even YOU weren't able to grasp the significance of what you mistakenly wrote! I had to explain your errors to you! :laugh:

Bryan, I don't care about the sebum.

Then why did you ask me about it?

 

[keephair]

Right I can see that you guys are very much obsessed with these things and I really do understand. However I must once again say that your treatment results for hair loss are purely subjective and you don't even have any before/after pictures to back up your arguments. Where's the objective science in that? As a man of science you must believe in objectivity? Also western medicine saves more lives and improves more lives than any other type of medicine, because it is based on the objective scientific method. Also fellas do not live under the misconception that western medicine is out to pump you full of drugs to make a profit from your health, I don't know how it is in the US, but in the EU many doctors quite often don't even prescribe drugs, but recommend exercise and physiotherapy in many instances. But I can see arguing this with you guys is like beating a dead horse. Kudos to Bryan for actually trying to argue with you so tenaciously.

Balding is genetic, yes. It is something one ancestor of ours had and the trait got passed on to the rest of us. In general baldness is not thought of as an indicator of health in grown up men. I know plenty of strong balding/bald men who are otherwise disease free and healthier/manlier than other men with a full heads of hair. Baldness is also more common in certain populations than others. For example native american and south east asian populations have a very low incidence of male pattern baldness. Sure baldness can indicate an underlying disease not so much male pattern baldness though, but it doesn't mean that all people with a Norwood 1 hairline are automatically healthier.

As for doctors making profits from drug companies. I am totally against it and when I graduate I will certainly not be bought into it. I see that the health of my patients is more important than money, so you will not get me to defend the people that try to make a profit from giving patients drugs they don't need. Also you won't get me to defend negative attitudes. I don't have a negative attitude, I'm just very much into proving things and also skepticism much like you guys are. I just have a different background and perhaps a different knowledge of how things work.


Guys don't obsess about this it doesn't help. Do your exercising, eat fresh veggies, eat less meat, etc (you guys seems to have a good knowledge of this) but more importantly get out into the world and try to focus on other things in life.
Baldness is not a disease, it's been around since the dawn of man and just makes you look older which is why we wanna prevent it.

Just remember opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one, but true knowledge is hard to find especially on the internet where often opinions become "fact".

Go to pubmed.gov they have many genuine independent medical articles/studies there on propecia and minoxidil and also their side effects. However the facts still are that the only objectively proven treatments that can be used to reverse or prevent male pattern baldness are minoxidil and propecia. I'm sorry, but that's just how it is at the moment.
Believe me if there was something with less risk proven to actually work properly I'd be on it as well.

 

[OverMachoGrande]

Quote:
It means what I said, it's in regards to how the human body naturally functions, I can't help how food/water is processed.


Come on Bryan, there's this thing called evolution. These days we speak in complete sentences.


Whatever the hell all THAT means! Don't you realize you're just making it worse by not biting the bullet and admitting the mistake you made?

I am referencing to how the body processes nutrition, there's no bullet, no mistake. If you can hardly understand what I say, I'm afraid it would be 'unwise' to participate in my post.

Lord_Justin13 wrote:
I'll re-quote myself, again, I made a grammatical error, in fact, I'll go back and change it, to something that better suites your English.


You didn't make a grammatical error, you made a FACTUAL ERROR by claiming that finasteride stops the creation of the 5a-reductase enzyme. It doesn't do that. It inhibits the 5a-reductase enzyme, without having any effect on its actual production. The more you try to "spin" your way out of this, the more foolish it makes you look.

Actually, I made a grammatical error, resulting in (you), in specific, who took it as a factual error. I'm not 'spinning' anything, shills. It is somewhat lunacy to try and make me concur with what you think that I meant, rather than what I know I meant.

Are you gonna tell me now how many meals I eat daily too?

Perhaps you look foolish attacking people's writing, and trying to inflate a couple of words way out of proportion.

Huh? There IS a medical record! The appropriate studies are listed in Dr. Fromme's two posts. Why haven't you commented on them? Is it because you're too embarrassed to do that?

No, because it's off topic, I really don't care, and I was trying to show you how ridiculous you look, responding in the same fashion you used, with my question.

Anyways, why does it matter if propecia was "accidental" or not. It still causes very dangerous side-effects in a large percentage of who use it.

All you did was find a couple of sites where somebody repeated the same misinformation as you. They had no knowledge whatsoever of the evidence presented by Dr. Fromme

At this point, I would like an official claim from Merck, admitting what you say here is true, that Finasteride was a multi-purpose medication, and pre-meditated to be so, and signed and dated.

Lord_Justin13 wrote:
Out of curiosity, has your treatment actually worked?


I've never used finasteride; but yes, my treatments (when I use them) have worked.

Have, being the keyword, so past tense then, why'd you stop, did it shrival up?

How would YOU know what they could grasp? Hell, even YOU weren't able to grasp the significance of what you mistakenly wrote! I had to explain your errors to you!

I knew exactly what you meant when you started attacking a few words. It was clear after I told you what i meant, and went as far as to changing it to a word you seldom understand, (expression), refer back to my original post.

No, you had to explain why you believed what I said were errors.

Lord_Justin13 wrote:
Bryan, I don't care about the sebum.


Then why did you ask me about it?

As a joke, I thought you would get it, but I guess I was over-estimating you.

Seriously though, do you have anything to say about the post topic? When the post I have provided is obvious that we don't need this crap, and that there are natural cures, affecting male pattern baldness, and these three diseases, which are correlated to initiate the process of male pattern baldness and vice-versa.

 

[OverMachoGrande]

However I must once again say that your treatment results for hair loss are purely subjective and you don't even have any before/after pictures to back up your arguments.

I have a before set of pictures from Jan.1st 2010, I am seeing improvment sor far with a couple of dietary changes, meditation, and supplementing vitamins. I will have after photos latest of Jan.1st next year

Oh, and if that's how you want to view it, then perhaps every medical study done, must have before and after photos to validate them to figure if they are real?

Also western medicine saves more lives and improves more lives than any other type of medicine

I know, I agreed western medicine is important, and I realize we have the best treatments for advanced conditions, but most of the time, they have a price. This is why alternative medicine is so great, to prevent the onset of a disease, safely, and healthily.

Also fellas do not live under the misconception that western medicine is out to pump you full of drugs to make a profit from your health, I don't know how it is in the US, but in the EU many doctors quite often don't even prescribe drugs, but recommend exercise and physiotherapy in many instances.

Perhaps you haven't lived in the states to see the scandals, and the advantage that money has over influencing our medical system and government agencies.

Hundreds of companies here continue to thrive, even if they are releasing poor products (in food, retail, medicine etc...) to the public, because they have enough money to buy off politicians, and further, they take advantage of some great freedom laws here to do so.

But I can see arguing this with you guys is like beating a dead horse. Kudos to Bryan for actually trying to argue with you so tenaciously.

This isn't odd... :whistle:

Guys don't obsess about this it doesn't help. Do your exercising, eat fresh veggies, eat less meat, etc (you guys seems to have a good knowledge of this) but more importantly get out into the world and try to focus on other things in life.

I beg to differ.

From Gary Null;

Hair Study: 1996

The following study was performed by Gary Null & Associates with conclusions and evaluations by various independent analysts.

In June of 1995 a study of the effects of nutrition, exercise, stress management and environmental adjustments upon the growth of human hair was announced to the general public: this study was entitled "The Hair Study." By March of 1996, 703 people had been selected to participate in the study. They were of different nationalities and backgrounds with ages ranging from 21 to 87 (the average age being 46.6 years). Some had been smokers, drinkers, meat eaters, overweight and obese, in short, a good cross section of our population. The first major study period was nine months, with adjustments every three months. Participants kept diaries and took notes of any changes in health, e.g. energy levels, sleep patterns, gastrointestinal changes, allergy responses, patterns of colds, flu, infections and sick days. Photos of the hair and scalp were taken and detailed objective and subjective analyses were recorded at the study sessions.

The criteria for participation in the study were as follows:

The participant had to have been balding for at least three years or thinning for at least five years and/or graying for at least five years. A protocol was suggested within the study, designed to initially detoxify and subsequently enhance overall health in order to efficiently metabolize nutrients for the hair follicles of a whole, healthfully functioning human system.

The following is a breakdown of the four points within the protocol:

Exercise
This was to consist of: 5 minutes of warming up, 45 minutes of exercise and 5 minutes of cooling down. Participants were to do any aerobic activity to 75% of optimal aerobic capacity 5 days per week. They were to also do cross training exercises, three days per week for 45 minutes.

Stress Management.
Participants were to do one hour per day of meditation and/or prayer and/or guided visualizations. These were to be broken into two half hour segments.

Environmental Adjustments.
Participants were to clean up their personal environment, including drinking only filtered water, removing fluorides, industrial solvents, parasites and pesticides. They were permitted to drink bottled spring water as well. The participants were asked to put air purifiers in their rooms and offices and to minimize electro-magnetic radiation.

Diet
This included elimination of the following, caffeine, dairy, wheat, yeast, red meat, pork, chicken, artificial sweeteners and artificial preservatives. 55% of the diet was to consist of complex carbohydrates and 30% from vegetable or fish protein. Fat was not to exceed 15% of total daily caloric intake, of which 75% was to come from omega 3 and omega 6 fatty acids. Each participant was to have 50 grams of fiber per day.

Conclusion:

To this date the study concludes that 96% of the participants have a higher level of consistent energy within their waking hours and less sleep required per night. This information is taken from diaries which were kept on a daily basis by the participants. Out of 703 "Hair Study" participants 549 have become controls. These respondents did not adhere to the protocol and reported no changes in hair growth, darkened hair color or being stabilized.

The remaining 154 in treated group completing the 9 month study had the following results: 63% had falling hair stabilization, 9% had darkened hair color or less graying and 26% exhibited hair growth while 2% were non responsive.

Just remember opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one, but true knowledge is hard to find especially on the internet where often opinions become "fact".

Yea, and remember what I said about the medical system here, everyone who has half a brain understands the significance of how these companies operate, with their protected laws.

 

[dpdr]

I went back to drinking Aloe Vera, and my dandruff and inflammation are gone, I have a plantation of Aloe Vera in my house :woot:

http://www.aloe-vera.org/top_10_reasons ... e_vera.htm

 

[Bryan]

Lord_Justin13 wrote:
I'll re-quote myself, again, I made a grammatical error, in fact, I'll go back and change it, to something that better suites your English.

You didn't make a grammatical error, you made a FACTUAL ERROR by claiming that finasteride stops the creation of the 5a-reductase enzyme. It doesn't do that. It inhibits the 5a-reductase enzyme, without having any effect on its actual production. The more you try to "spin" your way out of this, the more foolish it makes you look.

Actually, I made a grammatical error, resulting in (you), in specific, who took it as a factual error. I'm not 'spinning' anything, shills. It is somewhat lunacy to try and make me concur with what you think that I meant, rather than what I know I meant.

Oh, NOW I'm finally beginning to understand! When you made the following statement:

"This is what Finasteride mainly assists with, Through halting the 5-alpha enzyme from being created, thus, there is no catalyst for tesosterone to become DHT."

You didn't REALLY mean that finasteride halts that enzyme from being created, what you actually meant is that finasteride binds irreversibly to the 5a-reductase molecule, altering its chemical function and preventing it from converting testosterone to DHT! Now how on earth could I have so utterly misunderstood what you actually MEANT?? ROTFLMAO!!!

No, you had to explain why you believed what I said were errors.

LOL!! This is getting funnier all the time. You're starting to make misterE look like an intellectual! :laugh:

 

[guitar66]

ok, there is entirely to much on the thread to quote and respond to every point that was made. Regardless, theres lots of useful substance in here.

basically (short summary here), Team Brian suggests that FDA approved treatments, and concise documented medical literature is the only legitimate form of resources in terms of battling male pattern baldness.

Team Justin simply attempts a more progressive thought, suggesting that there are other various treatments/discoveries/experiments worth pursuing. Some of this info comes from concise studies, however in some cases there can be a question of validity (source of info, citations etc).

Obviously that summary is a bit limiting, and i understand there is much left to be said for each side. However, i would prefer to put the nit picking and grammatical errors aside, and continue on with the good stuff.

Personally, I really dig Justin's combination of Western/Eastern medicine principals that he mentioned previously in this thread. Western medicine always seems to focus on treating the symptoms, where as Eastern medicine attempts to get to the root of the problem, usually through holistic approaches. Justin's attempt to reconcile the two in a synergistic approach is certainly worthwhile.

As far as the studies go (or lack there of) in regards to alternative approaches, the argument comes up time and time again. Pharm. companies have much to gain by pushing medicine into the market. In order to do so, it must filter through FDA channels. I personally feel that both the pharm industry and FDA are corrupt to some degree (more so in some cases than others).

Conversely, theres not as much funding behind experiments testing holistic approaches, especially for experiments that would be the size and magnitude of those conducted by the pharm companies and the FDA. Similarly, theres no clear financial benefactor if/when holistic approaches prove to be effective.

This results in the following trend- it is much easier to find numerous sources of info containing experiments with finasteride, minoxidil etc. There are much less in regards to holistic approaches.

With that in mind, lets attempt to fix that. I personally think Justin's remedies are worth a try. There are certain parts that I agree with, certain parts I don't, and there are certain things I would personally choose to add in addition to that regimen. finasteride however, is NOT one of them. There are certainly enough people on here that are either completely holistic in their approach, or, only use holistic methods in terms of internal treatments but also choose to use non holistic topicals that have no systemic absorption.

So starting next month, I plan on starting a regimen based on, but not identical to the one Justin suggests. I will also add a few things. finasteride will not be one of them. Neither will minoxidil. I plan on taking pictures, and documenting the results (6 months, 1 year etc) I honestly think it would be beneficial if more people did the same (how about possibly starting a new thread for such results?)

 

[OverMachoGrande]

[quote="use your head":sr6sbygx]But I can see arguing this with you guys is like beating a dead horse. Kudos to Bryan for actually trying to argue with you so tenaciously.

This isn't odd... :whistle:

[/quote:sr6sbygx]

Very odd indeed, this is what makes me think that bryan has more than one screen name...even thou he will deny it.

 

[OverMachoGrande]

Personally, I really dig Justin's combination of Western/Eastern medicine principals that he mentioned previously in this thread. Western medicine always seems to focus on treating the symptoms, where as Eastern medicine attempts to get to the root of the problem, usually through holistic approaches. Justin's attempt to reconcile the two in a synergistic approach is certainly worthwhile.

Me too. We haven't had a member of this website contribute so much valuable information in such little time like Justin has! This is without-a-doubt one of the best posts I've read in a long-long time. This post really opens you eyes to see how the "big three" correlate with the three diseases associated with male pattern baldness. I couldn't make the connection between the two until now.

Western medicine focuses on the symptoms and not the "root of the problem" due to money. If you cure a patient of a disease, you stop making money off them. This should seem like a top priority, but it is not unfortunately. The doctors here in the USA, would rather have you buy "medicine" month after month, year after year, because they profit from it. This is why many people (here in the USA) think diet isn't an important factor, because diet change is not profitable to drug companies.

Eastern medicine focuses on the root of the problem, in many eastern medicines, they look to purify the blood, reduce stresses, detoxify the body and mind, have a healthy diet, have plenty of exercise, etc. These are all very beneficial not only to the hair but also the body and mind...but, they are also unprofitable, therefor this kind of thinking is "covered up" and slandered here is the USA.

 

[Nickel]

Lord_Justin13 interesting stuff there,

could you tell us more about how to make this big 3 into real treatment,

1. Polyphenols - could you specify a product

2. Lycopene - this should be supplemented with extract in pills?

3. Aloe vera - i should buy aloa vera juice?

Thanks

1. Polyphenols, the highest source is Pomegranate, POM drinks are goods, and any organic, glass bottled poure pomegranate juice is good as well. I've been using POM with great success so far.

2. Lycopene, don't go for extract or supplements, you generally don't know how good the ingrediants are, and if it's exact to the label, since there are no strict laws on these items. Watermelon in season is awesome for this, otherwise tomatoes and ketchup are also good.

3. Aloe Vera, absolutley go buy a couple of gallons, unsweetened, and further, I also use aloe vera gel to rub on my scalp, rub it in and leaves it for 5-10 mins, then rinse it out. It is very cooling and a powerful anti-inflammatory.

Your Welcome!

I have few more questions about this

1. What dosage of pomegranate would be enough. And as you compare it with minoxidil is there any use of topical application, i know it sounds funny
2. Same question how much of for example tomatoe juice or similar
3. No questions

What your doing here is very much appreciated. Its always good to view problems from different perspectives and by this kind of discussion, debates we can always learn something new and make our life-styles healthier.

 

[OverMachoGrande]

I went back to drinking Aloe Vera, and my dandruff and inflammation are gone, I have a plantation of Aloe Vera in my house :woot:

http://www.aloe-vera.org/top_10_reasons ... e_vera.htm

dpdr,

Hey man, I'm glad to hear your finding benefit with Aloe Vera, how long did it take for it to stop inflammation and dandruff?

Thanks for the link!

Bryan/Shills,

Lord_Justin13 wrote:
No, you had to explain why you believed what I said were errors.


LOL!! This is getting funnier all the time. You're starting to make misterE look like an intellectual!

Your constant attempt to make misterE and I look bad, won't help your cause. Stop nit-picking at what already has been solved, it's a waste of time.


guitar66,

However, i would prefer to put the nit picking and grammatical errors aside, and continue on with the good stuff.

I agree, let's keep this post moving so we can have an informative discussion on these diseases and how we can use nature to fix their ailments.

So starting next month, I plan on starting a regimen based on, but not identical to the one Justin suggests. I will also add a few things. finasteride will not be one of them. Neither will minoxidil. I plan on taking pictures, and documenting the results (6 months, 1 year etc) I honestly think it would be beneficial if more people did the same (how about possibly starting a new thread for such results?)

Sounds good man, I can start a new form based around a number of ideas, (exercising, diet related changes and supplements, and TCM), and people can pick a number of them to attempt, documenting results. great idea!


MisterE,

Me too. We haven't had a member of this website contribute so much valuable information in such little time like Justin has! This is without-a-doubt one of the best posts I've read in a long-long time. This post really opens you eyes to see how the "big three" correlate with the three diseases associated with male pattern baldness. I couldn't make the connection between the two until now.

Thank you friend!

 

[OverMachoGrande]

I have few more questions about this

1. What dosage of pomegranate would be enough. And as you compare it with minoxidil is there any use of topical application, i know it sounds funny
2. Same question how much of for example tomatoe juice or similar
3. No questions

What your doing here is very much appreciated. Its always good to view problems from different perspectives and by this kind of discussion, debates we can always learn something new and make our life-styles healthier.

Nickel,

1. I drink 1-5 servings a day depending on my wallet, but no matter what I at least drink large cup full (before or after running). Regarding topical application, there is one that has had rigorous testing done, Apple polyphenols.

http://www.applepolyphenols.com/

http://www.applepoly.com/procyanidin-b-2/

Actually funny you ask, several studies at these sites confirm the effectiveness of polyphenols, with topical use. I myself would use it right now if I had the cash.

2. The issue here is tomatoes conflicting with Ayuverdic medicine, and TCM.
In Indian texts, tomatoes act further to aggravate the pitta dosha, (pitta dosha excess is what they claim is responsible for hair loss) In TCM tomatoes are more cool in nature, and great for the blood. So what I do is drink some V-8 or tomato juice once a day, or cut up a tomato into my lunch salad. What's really great to focus on here is melons, especially watermelon in the summer, consume everyday after working out, or in the heat.

but all in all, a small can of v-8 a day, or a glass of Tomato juice, or one tomato. Consume less if you develop and inflammation, as this will be an indicator of excess heat. Or consume regularly with cooling foods.

Hope this helps nickel

 

[abcdv12]

Lord_Justin13 .
Good article, enjoyed reading it.

 

[dpdr]

I went back to drinking Aloe Vera, and my dandruff and inflammation are gone, I have a plantation of Aloe Vera in my house :woot:

http://www.aloe-vera.org/top_10_reasons ... e_vera.htm

dpdr,

Hey man, I'm glad to hear your finding benefit with Aloe Vera, how long did it take for it to stop inflammation and dandruff?

Thanks for the link!

At 1 month, I had problem of gastritis, due to poor diet that I had, after I started drinking Aloe Vera seems that the inflammation is gone, Next week I start to pass the gel in my head, maybe I do not have a regrowth :woot:

 

[Bryan]

Your constant attempt to make misterE and I look bad, won't help your cause. Stop nit-picking at what already has been solved, it's a waste of time.

You are the most brazenly dishonest person on this forum. I'm not going to let you forget it. You should be ashamed of yourself. (Nice grammar, by the way.)

 

[OverMachoGrande]

Your constant attempt to make misterE and I look bad, won't help your cause. Stop nit-picking at what already has been solved, it's a waste of time.

You are the most brazenly dishonest person on this forum. I'm not going to let you forget it. You should be ashamed of yourself. (Nice grammar, by the way.)

LOL!! Are you kidding?? I'm not a 'dishonest' person Bryan, in fact I can't stand liars, anyways, you should be ashamed if you get caught post under more than one screen name.

Stop attacking people with a different point of view!

There ARE natural treatments.

 

[OverMachoGrande]

Lord_Justin13 .
Good article, enjoyed reading it.

Thanks

Lord_Justin13 wrote:
dpdr wrote:
I went back to drinking Aloe Vera, and my dandruff and inflammation are gone, I have a plantation of Aloe Vera in my house

http://www.aloe-vera.org/top_10_reasons ... e_vera.htm

dpdr,

Hey man, I'm glad to hear your finding benefit with Aloe Vera, how long did it take for it to stop inflammation and dandruff?

Thanks for the link!


At 1 month, I had problem of gastritis, due to poor diet that I had, after I started drinking Aloe Vera seems that the inflammation is gone, Next week I start to pass the gel in my head, maybe I do not have a regrowth

Okay, let me know!

 

[OverMachoGrande]

I can't stand tomato juice/watermelon but i guess i have no choice for that portion.

Would you have any other good options for polyphenols? the apple polyphenols site is pretty cool looking just wish i could hear some reviews from people here that used it.

[/quote]

Yes, as far as topical application goes, grape seed extract has polyphenols and resveratrol, green apples have a higher amount, yet most if not all apples have some. (Though, In alternative medicine, with excess heat symptoms, sour fruits are said to be avoided). This is why I drink POM daily, it's sweet, cooling, and loaded with more polyphenols than the other two.

The second highest content comes from French red wine, generally from southern France. It is loaded with many other anti-oxidents as well, including resveratrol. The issue with red wine, is regular consumption can lead to liver damage, causing a further disruption in hormones, and could potentially worsen hair loss after repeated use. In TCM, alcohol works to seperate 'Yang', or 'Heat', a male energy, from the liver, spreading it throughout the body, this is not technically bad (occasionally or rarely), though after repeated use, causes a disruption in the liver's balance, resulting in mis-function. TCM regards the livers external opening the eyes, so when you see many alcoholics (or someone who has been drinking), they're eyes are usually bloodshot.

Besides that alcohol brings more heat to the body, and, works in creating more toxicity in the blood, due to harming the function of the liver and heat should generally be avoided in hair loss, as most of the time, excess heat is causing further harm.

You should also consume green tea with your polyphenols to increase absorption, up to three times.