Testosterone and DHT

[Robuk]

How come Testosterone declines as we age yet baldness increases with age.This seems confusing as DHT is formed from T.Also in the confusing mix are SHBG,IGF-1,HGH all of which vary with age yet also vary with each other sometimes inversely.It's no surprise a cure hasn't been found
Any explanations welcomed
Rob

 

[Bryan]

How come Testosterone declines as we age yet baldness increases with age.This seems confusing as DHT is formed from T.

I don't think anybody knows for sure, but it's probably a CUMULATIVE effect of damage to the hair follicles over the years, even though androgens start to decline with age.

Bryan

 

[Guest]

How come Testosterone declines as we age yet baldness increases with age.This seems confusing as DHT is formed from T.

I don't think anybody knows for sure, but it's probably a CUMULATIVE effect of damage to the hair follicles over the years, even though androgens start to decline with age.

Bryan

I have also read that the altering ratios of estrogen to test in aging males MIGHT have someting to do with it and of course, this is just theory.

 

[Stingray]

The production of testosterone declines, however the amount of the enzymes that create DHT probably don't decrease proportionately. Therefore the production of DHT won't decrease as significantly as testosterone.

Just a guess though. I don't know how it works exactly. But it sounds plausible.

 

[zak84]

stingray hit the nail on the head, however, im not sure testosterone levels decline so much, i think more testosterone is converted to estrogen, any way you slice it though, the amount of free testosterone converted to dihydrotestosterone remains constant

 

[Guest]

stingray hit the nail on the head, however, im not sure testosterone levels decline so much, i think more testosterone is converted to estrogen, any way you slice it though, the amount of free testosterone converted to dihydrotestosterone remains constant

Actually, the data I have seen suggests that most men have T levels that decline sharply over the years from say 700 to 200.

That plus increases in estrogen tied to ingestion wreck havoc with the T/E ratio. At least this is what I have read.

 

[Mraish]

I don't think any one has explained it right....its confusing even for me. lets take a look at people who start loosing their hair at 28 as an example, using a simplified math, lets say before they start loosing their hair they had T=10, E=3, DHT=5, as we know T level goes down with age, this mean at age 28 T=7 (decrease with age), E=4 (increase with age), DHT=less than 5. DHT should go down because its related to T level. but WHY WE LOOSE HAIR?.............NO ONE CAN EXPLAIN THIS.

 

[zak84]

bruce, listen old man, i thought i told you not to argue with me :lol:

dht levels don't drop because it doen't matter how much testosterone you have, it matters how much 5 alpha reductase you have. free testosterone is all throughout your body, it only synthesizes in one area to form DHT and the there's MUCH more free testosterone in that area that is not converted than is converted

 

[okok]

Androgen level

I observed that my body hair on the hand is longer and dense than few months before. As I started propecia and regaine in Aug. Are they related?
I read some Doctor saying that the androgen promote boty hair growth but not the hair on the head.
Anyone have similar experience??

 

[Guest]

bruce, listen old man, i thought i told you not to argue with me :lol:

dht levels don't drop because it doen't matter how much testosterone you have, it matters how much 5 alpha reductase you have. free testosterone is all throughout your body, it only synthesizes in one area to form DHT and the there's MUCH more free testosterone in that area that is not converted than is converted

Look carefully at my posts. I don't think I said that DHT levels drop and that was not the point I was trying to make. I was saying that the T to E ratio changes as we age. We know that feminizes men (softer muscless less strength) and I SPECULATED that this process MAY explain why men also lose more hair as they age, irrespective of male pattern baldness (in other words, long slow gradual hair thinning).

RE: DHT levels as we age, I don't know, haven't seen any data on that.

It is also possible that the aging hair cells are simply more sensitive to DHT than younger ones. Again, speculation.

 

[OverMachoGrande]

How come Testosterone declines as we age yet baldness increases with age.This seems confusing as DHT is formed from T.

Because D.H.T. is still stuck to S.H.B.G.

 

[Todd]

T levels increases through puberty and peaks at about 24-25. Then it gradually declines. This is a natural, healthy, declining process.
Now, unfortunately, in some old men increased aromatase activity messes up the system a bit. Aromatase is the enzyme that converts T into estradiol (wich is an estrogen). So the ratio between T and E gets skewed, and we get what is commonly known as andropause. In some cases this is treated with injection of T, in other cases it passes naturally.

DHT is made from T, as you all know, by the alpha reductase family of enzymes.
Depending on your genetic make up, the alpha reductase activity can be high, low or whatever. Obviously, T decreases as DHT increases (since DHT is made from T). A high alpha reductase activity, combined with a high aromatase activity would result in a plummet of T values, but relatively high DHT and estrogen levels.

When it comes to hairloss; DHT levels doesn´t really need to be that high. Sure, there are a correlation between alpha reductase activity, DHT levels and hairloss, but that doesn´t mean high DHT ALONE causes hair loss. How sensitive the follicles are, and the amount of androgen receptors on the scalp, also play a crucial role.
I´ve seen bloodwork of people with sky high DHT and relatively good hair. A signalling molecule needs a receptor in order to work. DHT doesn´t wreck your hair if your hair doesn´t respond to DHT.

We are taught that DHT really only is a more potent version of T, that is, higher affinity for the androgen receptor. That may be true for some tissues, but not all.
For the majority of men, libido DOES NOT increase when DHT levels go down (by taking, let´s say dutasteride), but it does decrease when T levels go down. Also, libido increases greatly with a surge in T, but remains unaffected by increases in DHT. This suggests that T plays a bigger role than DHT in male libido.

 

[wannakeepitall]

I thought hairloss becomes less aggressive as you get older. When it first starts it's pretty aggressive and after several years it slows down naturally. But this could be because there isn't as much hair to lose after a while so it looks like it slowed down.

 

[Bryan]

I thought hairloss becomes less aggressive as you get older. When it first starts it's pretty aggressive and after several years it slows down naturally.

So how would you explain those guys who only start balding later in life? I personally didn't even begin to show any balding until I was in my early to mid-40's.

I think it's pretty clear (based largely on that experiment with stumptailed macaques, which I'd certainly like to see duplicated in humans) that scalp hair follicles get more sensitive to androgens with age.

 

[OverMachoGrande]

I think it's pretty clear (based largely on that experiment with stumptailed macaques, which I'd certainly like to see duplicated in humans) that scalp hair follicles get more sensitive to androgens with age.

Bryan, why would hair get more sensitive to androgens/D.H.T. when the production of both goes down as you age? I think it could be that D.H.T. is still stuck to S.H.B.G., considering it's high ligand affinity to S.H.B.G.?

Ketoconazole (the active ingredient in Nizoral shampoo) selectively displaces both D.H.T. and estradiol from S.H.B.G. same with zinc, phytosterols, phytoestrogens, nettle root extract, and 2-methoxyestradiol...you do know that, right?

 

[Bryan]

Bryan, why would hair get more sensitive to androgens/D.H.T. when the production of both goes down as you age?

I'll give you a two-part answer:

1) There are obviously genetic reasons for why hair follicles become more sensitive to androgens over time. I can't get any more detailed than that, because I simply don't the specifics of how/why that happens. Nobody does.

2) Your attempt to link that increasing sensitivity to androgens with the level of androgens is irrelevant. I have no reason to think that they are connected in any way, shape, or fashion.

 

[OverMachoGrande]

Bryan, why would hair get more sensitive to androgens/D.H.T. when the production of both goes down as you age?

I'll give you a two-part answer:

1) There are obviously genetic reasons for why hair follicles become more sensitive to androgens over time. I can't get any more detailed than that, because I simply don't the specifics of how/why that happens. Nobody does.

2) Your attempt to link that increasing sensitivity to androgens with the level of androgens is irrelevant. I have no reason to think that they are connected in any way, shape, or fashion.

Then why are lignans, nettle root extract, phytosterols, zinc and ketoconazole shampoo good for the hair when they displace both D.H.T. and estradiol off of S.H.B.G.?

 

[Bryan]

Then why are lignans, nettle root extract, phytosterols, zinc and ketoconazole shampoo good for the hair when they displace both D.H.T. and estradiol off of S.H.B.G.?

What does that have to do with the question you asked before?

 

[OverMachoGrande]

What does that have to do with the question you asked before?

Absolutely nothing.

So are you going to answer this question: Why are lignans, nettle root extract, phytosterols, zinc, ketoconazole shampoo and not to mention topical spironolactone good for the hair when they displace both D.H.T. and estradiol off of S.H.B.G.?

 

[Bryan]

What does that have to do with the question you asked before?

Absolutely nothing.

So why do you do that? Why do you quote something that somebody else said, then go on to ask something completely unrelated? It's as if I were to say something about the increasing sensitivity of hair follicles to androgens, and you quote that and then say, "So why did the price of tea in China go up 10% last month?" When you do that, it shows a scatter-brained quality that you have.

So are you going to answer this question: Why are lignans, nettle root extract, phytosterols, zinc, ketoconazole shampoo and not to mention topical spironolactone good for the hair when they displace both D.H.T. and estradiol off of S.H.B.G.?

I don't know anything about the first four. I feel the last two are effective because they are antiandrogens. I don't happen to share your interest in SHBG, so I won't bother to comment on that specific angle.