Test. / DHT are not to culprit

[dpdr]

I never believed that much testosterone and DHT are the real culprits, see this article by Dr. Nick Delgado he explains how estrogen may be the real culprit for all this

http://www.antiagingdoctor.co.za/?p=283

http://nickdelgado.blogspot.com/2008/01 ... state.html

Immortalhair also points to estrogen as the culprit
http://www.immortalhair.org/

Finasteride prevents the formation of DHT by reducing inhibiting 5-alpha-reductase enzyme, while testosterone levels do increase as a result (a good thing), so does excess estrogen. In fact, the problem Finasteride was originally intended to treat; BPH (prostate enlargement) misses the true culprit, estrogen!

More about Estrogen here

http://www.hairloss-research.org/ProtocolMen08.html

Look, if DHT was really the problem, the cure would Avodart

 

[TheGrayMan2001]

It makes no sense. Removing DHT helps and reverses it in some people.

The problem is every person has different sensitivity to DHT. For instance, some people's hairlines are going to recede no matter how much DHT you remove. You can't get rid of 100% of it, so even just the smallest amount means their hairline is still going to go back. Some people are destined to be a NW7 by the time they're 25 years old. Almost nothing can save these people because their hair is so sensitive to DHT.

Most people fall somewhere in the middle range, so depending on where they are and their "pattern" then removing a decent amount of DHT will help them.

 

[Bryan]

I never believed that much testosterone and DHT are the real culprits, see this article by Dr. Nick Delgado he explains how estrogen may be the real culprit for all this

http://www.antiagingdoctor.co.za/?p=283

"Most people have excess levels of estrogen that are created by various metabolic processes. These harmful estrogens accelerate the aging process; worsen prostate disorders, hair loss and sexual dysfunction."

Why doesn't he provide a medical reference or citation to support his silly claim that estrogen worsens hair loss?

"In fact, testosterone actually can assist or enhance hair growth on top of the head provided the estrogen levels are management."

LOL!! What a quack.

Immortalhair also points to estrogen as the culprit
http://www.immortalhair.org/

Finasteride prevents the formation of DHT by reducing inhibiting 5-alpha-reductase enzyme, while testosterone levels do increase as a result (a good thing), so does excess estrogen. In fact, the problem Finasteride was originally intended to treat; BPH (prostate enlargement) misses the true culprit, estrogen!

Immortalhair points to estrogen as the culprit for WHAT? Please be specific when you make statements like that. He seems to be acknowledging that estrogen is a factor in BPH (I don't really have a problem with that), but I don't see anything at his site where he claims that estrogen is a factor in male pattern baldness. Quite to the contrary, estrogen has been shown to actually stimulate the growth of balding scalp hair follicles.

More about Estrogen here

http://www.hairloss-research.org/ProtocolMen08.html

You have now scraped the very bottom of the barrel by citing male pattern baldness Research!

 

[dpdr]

Ok Bryan :whistle:

 

[Bryan]

Ok Bryan :whistle:

That's all you're going to say? So what does "Immortalhair" think about the role of estrogen in male pattern baldness? Has he said anything about that?

 

[Jocko59]

dpdr:

Didn't you post that exact same thing on IH's site the other day? Why are you spamming hair loss sites with this BS? Do you get a commission? Now, run away spammer.

 

[jackjones]

If estrogen is the culprit, those of us using topical spironolactone are making matters much worse then???......

hmmm?

any thruth in these claims you think lads?,
should we stop our topical spironolactone then?

 

[Hoppi]

Heya duuuude

This is one area where my research and knowledge is quite limited, I just kinda know enough to know that healthy, strong T levels (but not excessive) and healthy, low E levels (but not excessively low) seems to be the absolute optimum for a man (including a man with hair loss).

I'll have more of a look into this later (I'm spent for now.. lol) but I am with you in pinpointing estrogen as largely a bad thing for men.

Curcumin and Resveratrol is an internal male pattern baldness treatment that has worked on people, and the hormonal shift it triggers increases T, decreases E and slightly decreases 5ar.

I did want to include something in my regimen for reducing estrogen but I'm not really sure it's necessary tbh. Reducing insulin and cortisol, improving my thyroid, ashwagandha, all that kind of stuff should improve my T production, which will in turn reduce E

I believe curcumin also inhibits the "bad" estrogen

 

[dpdr]

For peoples this forum, download this .PDF of this link

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=55807

It is an article from "Men's Healt" where talk of estrogen and its relationship with MBP and other things


Hoppi:

Broccoli, Cauliflower and cabbage are great for removing the bad estrogen

 

[Bryan]

This is one area where my research and knowledge is quite limited...

No kidding?

...I just kinda know enough to know that healthy, strong T levels (but not excessive) and healthy, low E levels (but not excessively low) seems to be the absolute optimum for a man (including a man with hair loss).

I'll have more of a look into this later (I'm spent for now.. lol) but I am with you in pinpointing estrogen as largely a bad thing for men.

I don't think you'll get any argument from anybody that estrogen (in general) is a bad thing for men. As we get older, we make too much of it, and it can cause or contribute to certain other health problems.

What you need to do now (what you haven't done at all) is provide any scientific evidence that estrogen is bad for a man's hair, and is involved in a negative way in male pattern baldness. You haven't provided an iota of such evidence.

 

[Bryan]

For peoples this forum, download this .PDF of this link

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=55807

It is an article from "Men's Healt" where talk of estrogen and its relationship with MBP and other things

I'll repeat what others in this thread have said: where in that PDF are hair and male pattern baldness even mentioned?

And why haven't you answered the other question I asked you earlier? (What is Immortalhair's opinion of estrogen and hair loss?)

 

[dpdr]

For peoples this forum, download this .PDF of this link

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=55807

It is an article from "Men's Healt" where talk of estrogen and its relationship with MBP and other things

I'll repeat what others in this thread have said: where in that PDF are hair and male pattern baldness even mentioned?

And why haven't you answered the other question I asked you earlier? (What is Immortalhair's opinion of estrogen and hair loss?)

I'll keep ignoring you Bryan, even if I show you some argument you will always ignore them (As you did with misterE), Do you think that estrogen is good ? Start using female hormones and depart for a castration

 

[Jocko59]

Go away spammer. There is already enough trash floating around the various hair loss boards.

 

[Hoppi]

Just because he is expressing a uncommon view does not make him a spammer.

 

[docj077]

Br J Dermatol. 2008 Jan;158(1):109-15. Epub 2007 Nov 6.

Topical fulvestrant solution has no effect on male and postmenopausal female androgenetic alopecia: results from two randomized, proof-of-concept studies.
Gassmueller J, Hoffmann R, Webster A.

Bioskin Institute for Dermatological Research and Development GmbH, Poppenbuetteler Bogen 25, Hamburg, Germany. johannes.gassmueller@bioskin.de

Abstract
BACKGROUND: Androgenetic alopecia (pattern baldness) affects approximately half of all white-skinned men and women over the age of 40 years. Based on preclinical studies in mice in which topical fulvestrant (ICI182,780, an anti-oestrogen) caused telogen hair follicles to enter anagen, thereby causing hair growth, a topical formulation of fulvestrant was developed for the potential treatment of androgenetic alopecia. OBJECTIVES: To evaluate the efficacy of fulvestrant solution in stimulating hair growth in men and postmenopausal women with androgenetic alopecia in two randomized, phase II, minoxidil- and/or vehicle-controlled studies. METHODS: One hundred and two white-skinned men aged 18-50 years with Norwood/Hamilton grades III, IIIv, IV, V or Va androgenetic alopecia received topical fulvestrant 70 mg mL(-1) solution, vehicle or minoxidil 2% solution twice daily for 16 weeks. Seventy postmenopausal women with Ludwig grade 1 or 2 androgenetic alopecia received topical fulvestrant 70 mg mL(-1) solution or vehicle twice daily for 16 weeks. The endpoints in both studies were hair density, cumulative hair thickness and hair growth rate, measured by TrichoScan analysis of digital images. RESULTS: There were no statistically significant differences favouring fulvestrant over vehicle at study end (day 113) for any of the efficacy parameters in men or women. Statistically significant differences in favour of minoxidil over fulvestrant were seen from day 57 onwards for hair density, cumulative hair thickness and hair growth rate in men. CONCLUSIONS: These results indicate a lack of effect of topical fulvestrant in the treatment of subjects with androgenetic alopecia. The reasons for this lack of effect remain unclear.

 

[Jocko59]

Yeah right. He did the exact same thing and linked the same scam website on IH's page. Don't be so naive Hoppi.

 

[Bryan]

I'll keep ignoring you Bryan, even if I show you some argument you will always ignore them (As you did with misterE),

I don't "ignore arguments". I bet I know more about estrogen and hairloss than you do! You and misterE are the ones who are ignoring arguments.

Are you going to answer the questions I asked you, or not? By the way, the questions I asked you didn't have anything to do with the theory behind estrogen and hairloss. They were simple, straightforward questions about what other people say about it, and I expect you to give me simple, straightforward answers. Or are you too embarrassed to admit that (as I and the other posters pointed out to you) there wasn't even any mention of hair and male pattern baldness in that one PDF file you linked? And did you not answer my other question about Immortalhair simply because you don't KNOW what he thinks? Hint: it's always okay for you simply to say "I don't know", when you're stumped like that. It goes over a lot better when you tell the truth than when you make up silly statements about how I supposedly "ignore arguments".

Do you think that estrogen is good ?

It's good for scalp hair, but bad for other areas of the male body. Have you ever heard the old expression "two-edged sword"?

 

[purecontrol]

I believe the problem a lot of people are having here is the belief that estrogen is 100% good for hair.

1) Estrogen can cuase inflamation and oxidants (Free-Radicals) = hair loss
2) Women can also have male pattern baldness and diffuse thining
3) AOs such as SOD, res, etc can act as anti-estrogen yet they help to re-grow hair
4) If estrogen is the cure, why no topical or pill that will address this issue
5) How could finasteride not work for everyone when it both reduces DHT and increases estrogen?


You see, there are just as many loop holes in both theories.

IMO there is something going on with the type of estrogen, the levels of the estrogen, etc. Otherwise finasteride would work for everyone and topical estrogen would be the cure.

 

[Bryan]

4) If estrogen is the cure, why no topical or pill that will address this issue

Nobody thinks that estrogen is "the cure". In fact, I've never recommended estrogen to help fight male pattern baldness (topically or otherwise) for the simple reason that it goes systemic much too easily.

5) How could finasteride not work for everyone when it both reduces DHT and increases estrogen?

For the reasons that have already been discussed umpteen different times.

You see, there are just as many loop holes in both theories.

No, not at all.

 

[mykal_P]

Answer this then dpdr, why do men who have sex changes and start on estrogen pills not all horribly lose their hair after ????