T/Gel effects on 5ar

CCS

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I heard one of the smaller finasteride studies had T/Gel in the placebo group, and they did not lose any hair during that 6 months or several months afterwards. Anyone got more info? I heard it gets ride of the proton donor that 5ar uses to put a proton on testosterone to make DHT.

Bryan? Old Baldy? Anyone know more about this?
 

CCS

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hair today gone tomorrow said:
ccs how many shampoos do you plan on using
--------------
nizoral 3-4x per week (main one)
Licorice or spironolactone (might just put licorice in my other shampoos)
PO 2-3x per week
nano (on days I want to look my best and not use minoxidil)
T/Gel (twice per week)

h&s (not going to use)
-------------

anything else?

I'm getting rid of the H&S. It is a growth stimulant, but it also has androgenic activity. The growth stimulant factors are not additive to minoxidil, so it has no place in my regimen.

On some days I wash my hair twice. My scalp is not irritated.

If I can get the licorice, I'll skip the spironolactone. I'm only grinding up those pills if I can't get the licorice. I just use the Regrowth shampoo on days when I want to skip minoxidil.
 

hair today gone tomorrow

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collegechemistrystudent said:
hair today gone tomorrow said:
ccs how many shampoos do you plan on using
--------------
nizoral 3-4x per week (main one)
Licorice or spironolactone (might just put licorice in my other shampoos)
PO 2-3x per week
nano (on days I want to look my best and not use minoxidil)
T/Gel (twice per week)

h&s (not going to use)
-------------

anything else?

I'm getting rid of the H&S. It is a growth stimulant, but it also has androgenic activity. The growth stimulant factors are not additive to minoxidil, so it has no place in my regimen.

On some days I wash my hair twice. My scalp is not irritated.

If I can get the licorice, I'll skip the spironolactone. I'm only grinding up those pills if I can't get the licorice. I just use the Regrowth shampoo on days when I want to skip minoxidil.

keep in mind that nano and minoxidil are 2 different compounts...so to get the positive effects of nano you need to be using it on a regular basis. they are not interchangeable.
 

CCS

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Hey, this is better than having many topicals. My only topicals will be

at night after shower:
minoxidil 4% with 0.01% retin-A
0.5% licorice

Morning
0.2% licorice with 0.5% white curcumin and 1% apple poly
Old version AC spray every other day till gone

A little bit of Dermmatch after my shower. And some Avida Pure Abundance to the shafts at the end of the shower.


I have a very cheap regimen.
 

CCS

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Back to the T-Gel. Anyone know more about that study?


I heard that the 5 year propecia trial used T-Gel. But if that is the case, it does not look like it helped the placebo group much.
 

CCS

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e reed

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I just used t-gel for the first time, I bought it because I have a bad reaction to Nizoral. Do you have a link for the study you mentioned? Also, you said the placebo group used the t gel and didn't lose ANY hair?
 

CCS

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e reed said:
I just used t-gel for the first time, I bought it because I have a bad reaction to Nizoral. Do you have a link for the study you mentioned? Also, you said the placebo group used the t gel and didn't lose ANY hair?

I was asking the same question.
 

Strat54

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Here's an excerpt taken from study:

Clinical Studies
Studies in Men
The efficacy of PROPECIA was demonstrated in men (88% Caucasian) with mild to moderate
androgenetic alopecia (male pattern hair loss) between 18 and 41 years of age. In order to prevent seborrheic dermatitis which might confound the assessment of hair growth in these studies, all men, whether treated with finasteride or placebo, were instructed to use a specified, medicated, tar-based shampoo (Neutrogena T/Gel®** Shampoo) during the first 2 years of the studies.

Studies in Men with Vertex Baldness
Of the men who completed the first 12 months of the two vertex baldness trials, 1215 elected to
continue in double-blind, placebo-controlled, 12-month extension studies. There were 547 men receiving PROPECIA for both the initial study and first extension periods (up to 2 years of treatment) and 60 men receiving placebo for the same periods. The extension studies were continued for 3 additional years, with 323 men on PROPECIA and 23 on placebo entering the fifth year of the study.

...In order to evaluate the effect of discontinuation of therapy, there were 65 men who received
PROPECIA for the initial 12 months followed by placebo in the first 12-month extension period. Some of these men continued in additional extension studies and were switched back to treatment with PROPECIA, with 32 men entering the fifth year of the study. Lastly, there were 543 men who received placebo for the initial 12 months followed by PROPECIA in the first 12-month extension period. Some of these men continued in additional extension studies receiving PROPECIA, with 290 men entering the fifth year of the study.

...Hair counts were assessed by photographic enlargements of a representative area of active hair loss. In these two studies in men with vertex baldness, significant increases in hair count were demonstrated at 6 and 12 months in men treated with PROPECIA, while significant hair loss from baseline was demonstrated in those treated with placebo. At 12 months there was a 107-hair difference from placebo (p<0.001, PROPECIA [n=679] vs placebo [n=672]) within a 1-inch diameter circle (5.1 cm2). Hair count was maintained in those men taking PROPECIA for up to 2 years, resulting in a 138-hair difference between treatment groups (p<0.001, PROPECIA [n=433] vs placebo [n=47]) within the same area. In men treated with PROPECIA, the maximum improvement in hair count compared to baseline was achieved during the first 2 years. Although the initial improvement was followed by a slow decline, hair count was maintained above baseline throughout the 5 years of the studies. Furthermore, because the decline in the placebo group was more rapid, the difference between treatment groups also continued to increase
throughout the studies, resulting in a 277-hair difference (p<0.001, PROPECIA [n=219] vs placebo [n=15]) at 5 years.

...Patients who switched from placebo to PROPECIA (n=425) had a decrease in hair count at the end of the initial 12-month placebo period, followed by an increase in hair count after 1 year of treatment with PROPECIA. This increase in hair count was less (56 hairs above original baseline) than the increase (91 hairs above original baseline) observed after 1 year of treatment in men initially randomized to PROPECIA. Although the increase in hair count, relative to when therapy was initiated, was comparable between these two groups, a higher absolute hair count was achieved in patients who were started on treatment with PROPECIA in the initial study. This advantage was maintained through the remaining 3 years of the studies. A change of treatment from PROPECIA to placebo (n=48) at the end of the initial 12 months resulted in reversal of the increase in hair count 12 months later, at 24 months.

...At 12 months, 58% of men in the placebo group had further hair loss (defined as any decrease in hair count from baseline), compared with 14% of men treated with PROPECIA. In men treated for up to 2 years, 72% of men in the placebo group demonstrated hair loss, compared with 17% of men treated with PROPECIA. At 5 years, 100% of men in the placebo group demonstrated hair loss, compared with 35% of men treated with PROPECIA.

Summary of Clinical Studies in Men
Clinical studies were conducted in men aged 18 to 41 with mild to moderate degrees of androgenetic alopecia. All men treated with PROPECIA or placebo received a tar-based shampoo
(Neutrogena T/Gel®** Shampoo) during the first 2 years of the studies. Clinical improvement was seen as early as 3 months in the patients treated with PROPECIA and led to a net increase in scalp hair count and hair regrowth. In clinical studies for up to 5 years, treatment with PROPECIA slowed the further progression of hair loss observed in the placebo group. In general, the difference between treatment groups continued to increase throughout the 5 years of the studies.

I could send you the complete study If you send me a PM with your email.
 

kilgore

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collegechemistrystudent said:
I heard one of the smaller finasteride studies had T/Gel in the placebo group, and they did not lose any hair during that 6 months or several months afterwards.

That doesn't make any sense CCS. If the placebo group in the propecia trials only used t/gel and they didn't lose any hair, the conclusion from such a study would have been that propecia is useless.
 

CCS

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The propecia group regrew hair. The placebo group did not regrow hair. But normally in other studies the placebo group loses a lot of hair. I did not see the study. MB just told me about it. He does not remember more than that.
 

CCS

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Strat54 said:
Here's an excerpt taken from study:

Clinical Studies
Studies in Men
The efficacy of PROPECIA was demonstrated in men (88% Caucasian) with mild to moderate
androgenetic alopecia (male pattern hair loss) between 18 and 41 years of age. In order to prevent seborrheic dermatitis which might confound the assessment of hair growth in these studies, all men, whether treated with finasteride or placebo, were instructed to use a specified, medicated, tar-based shampoo (Neutrogena T/Gel®** Shampoo) during the first 2 years of the studies.
.

Thanks Strat54!

Look at my avatar. Why does the placebo group drop only slightly the first year, then take off downhill. Do you think the tar shampoo stank to bad for them to bother with it the second year? And coincidentally, the propecia group declines after 2 years, when they are no longer using the coal tar. Remember this is a cross section of ages, not just a group of 25 year old twins who all got worse faster. Why the steeper drop off later? I bet the coal tar explains it.
 

CCS

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I think coal tar is about half as strong as Propecia, and the combo is about as strong as dutasteride 2.5mg. No internal side effects, just a bad smell.

Stat54, do you know how many times per week they washed with that shampoo? My guess is not that many because of the smell. They probably followed the directions on the bottle.
 

blaze

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Nice one CCS.

T/Gel from what you have said could very well played a bigger part than some think.

I dont know about it being equivalant to 2.5mg of dutas though...
 

kilgore

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The reason why they used t/gel in the propecia trials was because they wanted everybody on the clinical trial to be using the same shampoo and to take care of the possible seb derm some of the volunteers in the study may or may not have had.
Here, from this very same site:

Anti Inflammatory in the Propecia Trials

When studies on Propecia were conducted, the drug users were all asked to wash their scalps with Tgel shampoo. The reasoning behind this was two fold. First, cosmetic hair products do affect the look or hair and the trial investigators were going to take global photographs so they wanted the volunteers to all be using the same shampoo product throughout the study. Second, the issue of whether dermatitis could influence the hair growth response to Propecia needed to be minimized. Tgel is a reasonably effective treatment for dermatitis (seborrheic or contact) while at the same time it has no known direct stimulation or inhibition of hair growth. By using Tgel the investigators could remove the question of whether scalp dermatitis was influencing any hair growth response to the Propecia use from the clinical trial. Some think the investigators were worried that Propecia might stimulate dermatitis itself hence the use of Tgel, but there has never been any official word to confirm or deny this, and at least to my knowledge there has been no reporting of dermatitis exacerbation with the use of Propecia.

That thing Bryan mentioned about coal tar reducing the size of the sebaceous gland and decreasing the production of sebum sounds interesting though. Maybe it doesn't have a direct antiandrogenic effect like ketoconazole but by reducing the sebum you reduce dht just the same. That german doctor Bryan mentioned conducted a study to prove this? It would be interesting to see that study if Bryan or someone else could post it.

One thing I'll tell you: if t/gel is good or not for hairloss I don't know but of all the shampoos I use, coal tar t/gel is the one that leaves my hair looking the best. I only use it once a week though.
 

CCS

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when I used it tonight, it smelled like a chemical from my organic chemistry lab. I think naphalene, or one of the other crystaline hydrocarbons. It does not smell like asphalt.

the smell was not overpowering. I tolerated it OK. But the hot water over time made the fumes get to me a bit. I can handle this stuff, but I want to mix it in my hand with nizoral next time.
 

Strat54

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I don’t know if hits a coincidence or not, but I grew more hair using just Propecia and T-gel (daily) than with Avodart, Nano shampoo, Revita, a 1000 supplements, copper peptides, emu oil…….

The only two shampoos I used from 1991-2005 were Head & shoulders and T-gel, and I didn’t lose any hair during that time.
I don’t know if I suddenly I stopped loosing hair or the shampoos really helped.
 

hairsucks

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Intresting stuff, I use T/Gel everyday at the moment, do you think that is too much?

I like the smell, it smells like dog shampoo.
 

Chemical J

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hairsucks said:
Intresting stuff, I use T/Gel everyday at the moment, do you think that is too much?

I like the smell, it smells like dog shampoo.


Wayyy too much buddy 2 times a week and if you feel so inclined 3 times, but would only recommend two times.
 
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