Summing up, is DHT the main reason of male pattern baldness?

[sphlanx2006]

So i am confused. I dont have the scientific backroung to understand most of the studies out there. (I always sucked at chemistry)

When i first began doing my research over hair loss, i was condifent that the reason causing male pattern baldness was solid and named DHT. I also thought that all i had to do was to keep it away of my hair follicles in any possible way.

But then i read a lot of other stuff, also some threads on this forum, that really confused me. It was mentioned (if i am sure i figured it out correctly) that blocking DHT was a double edge knife since there was more free testosterone, that can also kill hair.

Also a lot of stuff about the immunity system, fungus responsible for hair loss and a lot of other.

My question is: Is at last, DHT the real reason of hair loss? And if it isnt, what are the other reasons we have found this far?
Sorry for the long post

 

[Guest]

TYPE 2 DHT is the real main reason behind male pattern baldness. If you block a lot of DHT from being created, then you are protecting your hair. Avodart for example will stop production of 98.5% of TYPE 2 DHT in the FOLLICLE. This will stop your hair loss in most instances and slow it down in others, meaning that if you start it early enough then you will not progress past probably a Norwood 3, ever.

 

[KiLLuMiNaTi]

man f*** playing with your hormones and loosing muscle and being impotent just get a hair transplant and use topical treatments

 

[Guest]

man f****ing playing with your hormones just get a hair transplant and use topical treatments

nice recipe for going bald.

sphlanx, don't listen to him. he's trying to scare you about his sides. perhaps he's just a BIT bitter about how the drugs gave him sides so he had to stop them and may now be balding. don't let that happen to you, don't let him make you do that.

 

[KiLLuMiNaTi]

if you think propecia or dutasteride have no side effects i dare any of you to stop it for a month and watch how the mental fog disapears also the anxiety they cause and watch your dick wake up again...those tablets are poison

 

[KiLLuMiNaTi]

there bad man doctors have told me how bad they are..do you know more then a doctor jayman..DR WOODS from thewoodstechnique.com told me when i seen him for a consiltation that prolonged use of systemic dht inhibitors will in alot of cases cause oesteopherosis

 

[KiLLuMiNaTi]

jayman are you telling me you have no side effects from dutasteride?? or are you just willing to sacrifice your dick for hair??

 

[Guest]

jayman are you telling me you have no side effects from dutasteride?? or are you just willing to sacrifice your dick for hair??

NO SIDES. How do you like that buddy? And I've been on it for over 3 months.

 

[KiLLuMiNaTi]

how do i like that?? man why are you so defensive?? im happy for you man f*** me dead take it easy

 

[KiLLuMiNaTi]

im just giving people advice that i have been getting from doctors who would know a little more then you about dht

 

[Guest]

im just giving people advice that i have been getting from doctors who would know a little more then you about dht

i doubt that most dermatologists know more than i do about dht. and if they aren't dermatologists then they probably know very little about it. my general doctor didn't even know what propecia was, so i doubt that they do. your advice sucks. you're trying to scare people into "not taking that poison".

 

[KiLLuMiNaTi]

http://www.thewoodstechnique.com yeah i bet you know more about it then this guy

 

[KiLLuMiNaTi]

yeah id trust a guy that uses cocaine aswell :roll:

 

[Guest]

www.thewoodstechnique.com yeah i bet you know more about it then this guy

Biggest, did i ever say i knew more about it than him? Please don't put words in my mouth. But many other hair transplant surgeons and doctors in general disagree with him if he said that propecia will cause osteoperosis down the line.

As for the cocaine comment, it's a JOKE, Largest.

 

[docj077]

there bad man doctors have told me how bad they are..do you know more then a doctor jayman..DR WOODS from thewoodstechnique.com told me when i seen him for a consiltation that prolonged use of systemic dht inhibitors will in alot of cases cause oesteopherosis

Hate to say it, but that Dr. is actually wrong. DHT is not the hormone response for bone homeostasis. Estrogen, however, is responsible and its precursor hormone is testosterone. Aromatase mediates the conversion from testosterone to estrogen and 5AR inhibitors have no part in the overall process as they raise testosterone levels instead of lowering them.

 

[sphlanx2006]

I dont trust all doctors. Some think that hair doesnt worth taking even a little risk. Plus some derms dont know a lot of stuff about hair loss since they have other things to focus like skin cancer and other important skin diseases. I consider finasteride a very small risk since it has rare sides and even when they occure they go away when you quit. Jayman i am a little scared to use Avodart since the sides(if they occur) will stay longer plus its very expensive. I will though if finasteride doesnt have the expected results.(maintainance and y not some regrowth )

Also jayman on the same thread i read about testosterone, i also read that dutasteride has reverse effect for some people(actually causes more hair loss). Do you have any info on that?

I think i have a NW2 hairline but hair behind it has become real thin. I would love some regrowth but just maintainance is acceptable since considering my family history i would go bald by 25-26(i am 19 atm)

 

[Guest]

Jayman i am a little scared to use Avodart since the sides(if they occur) will stay longer plus its very expensive. I will though if finasteride doesnt have the expected results.(maintainance and y not some regrowth )

So the sides stay longer. They occur in very few people, I've never had sides from it, and if they occur then you can stop and go back to finasteride. As for it being expensive, you can get a year's supply of real generic dutasteride (assuming you take one pill a day) for $360 from InHouse Pharmacy. If you're using genuine Proscar tablets then you're spending $270 a year anyway, so it's only $90 a year more.

Also jayman on the same thread i read about testosterone, i also read that dutasteride has reverse effect for some people(actually causes more hair loss). Do you have any info on that?

There's never been studies and that's the problem. We know that DHT has a greater affinity for the androgen receptor , and so it's thought to be 30 times as potent as plain old testosterone. I know that my hair loss is not getting worse. I suspect that some people who are having hair loss on it are actually experiencing sheds and if they give the drug time, they will get their hair count back that they had before the drug took effect, and possibly some more on top of it. Unfortunately, some of these people panic when they start shedding, and stop the drug, which only results in more shedding and more hair loss.

This is just my opinion but i don't think that it can have a reverse effect. I think that by 0.5 mg a day of Avodart blocking 98.5% of follicular DHT, thta even when all that T isn't converted into DHT and remains T, that it is not even close to being as bad had that all been converted to the DHT which is far worse for your hair. Some people could have weird medical reactions to the drug I guess because everyone responds differently, but that's true for any drug.

I think i have a NW2 hairline but hair behind it has become real thin. I would love some regrowth but just maintainance is acceptable since considering my family history i would go bald by 25-26(i am 19 atm)

I'd just stay on finasteride I guess if I were you, but talk to your doctor about Avodart for now or for the future. Who am I to talk though? I'm NW1.5 and only gave finasteride a month and a half before going to avodart. Lol.

But you should see all the new terminal hairs I'm getting along my hairline and temples, and my temples are covered in little vellus hairs as well. And my crown is filling in marvelously. Avodart really is the sh*t. DocJ077, the guy who posted above in this thread, and Aplunk as well, think that even though my dad is NW5 at 50, that I'll probably never get worse than NW3 simply by staying on Avodart. Wouldn't that be something? I'm a young kid(22) and that's also assuming that nothing better comes out in the next 20 years which of course is very unlikely. Refined hair transplant techniques, Propecia and Avodart have all come out within the past 10 years, so in 20 more years we will probably have refined Hair cloning as well which would be the closest thing to a cure.

 

[michael barry]

Docj077,

Ive done a little tooling around on google looking for "collagen deposition" and TGF-beta 1. I definitely can see why you are interested in this.


Doctor, Im sure youve noticed over the years that older balding men, and extensively younger balding men, have that "shiny" baldness where their scalps look like there is pressure built up underneath or that their skin has gotten thick and hard up there. Its a different appearance of the scalp skin vs. a man with hair who has just shaved his head.


Im assuming its your contention that this is due to excessive collagen being depositied in the area of the upper scalp. Stephen Foote, the guy you were vigorously arguing with, believes its excessive lymphatic fluids stuck up there due to a back up in lymph drainage. In those barley proanthocyanidn experiments I posted that took place in mice, the scientists determined the barley inhibited the expression of TGF-beta 1 both in the mice and in test tubes with the hair cells present.

You know Doctor,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Apple B-2 proanthocyandins, barley B-3 proanthocyanidins, and grape seed B-1 proanthocyandins may not really be "hair stimulants" but merely inhibitors of negative growth factors alone. The anti-growth factorws being Protien Kinease C, TGF beta, and TNF-alpha.

Whats so interesting about this is that beer and egg shampoos, grape pulp (native Americans used that for luxuriant hair growth), apple cider vinegar, pine bark (not only is beta sis in pine bark, but there are some kind of proanthocyandin in that also), and blueberries (anthocyanidns) have been used in old herbal concoctions for hair for hundreds of years. Interesting that.


If you think there is some other reason for that "shiny" appearance of the scalp, please let us know your thoughts on the matter if you have the time. Best of luck, M

 

[docj077]

Michael Barry,

What you posted is really what interests me about hair loss at this point in time. The link between androgens, TGF-beta, and TNF-alpha is very fascinating to me, but I don't think that science understands how they communicate, yet.

My hair loss has completely stopped (it seems) by simply taking curcumin morning and night, green tea at the same time, and a shower morning and night with baby shampoo containing vitamin E and Honey.

Will I regrow my hair that I've lost? I don't know. I can see the little guys poking through where my hairline is and I've only been doing this treatment for a couple of months. I'm going to see where things are at after 6 months. My hair feels great, so even if it does all fall out I don't feel cheated right now.

Using this shampoo and not using any products in my hair whatsoever has helped me a lot. I've tried every shampoo on the market and nothing compares to hypoallergenic baby shampoo. This combined with apple cidar vinegar or simply homemade apple cider rubbed in my hair at the first sign of irritation has helped a lot. Both for the soothing effect and for making me feel like maybe I'm making some progress.

 

[michael barry]

Doctor,

When Ive pondered it, it really "isn't" DHT that is the difference between men who lose hair and those that dont, its the hairs/scalps response to it. Brad Pitt has DHT and so do I, but his hair doesn't seem to mind in his early/mid 40's.


Question. I know tocopherol (vitamin E) inhibits either PKC or TNF alpha (I'd have to look up exactly which). What does honey do specifically? I wouldn't be suprised if honey were good for skin and hair, its good for alot of things.

Doctor, by the way.............if you DID wanna add somethin' anti-androgenic to that shampoo........you could add beta sitosterol gel calps or lavendar oil to it. They both behave like estrogens. Lavendar is somewhat pro-inflammatory though.



Did you have time to consider my question about those "shiny, tight" scalps? I was wondering if you thought that was excessvie collagen build-up or something else? The L'Oreal researchers seemed to believe that excessive collagen deposited around the root sheath and connective tissue sheath makes the hair roots stiff and less able to enlarge. I was assuming that this was due to TGF-beta and THAT got the immune system interested in the hair in some folks. But as you say, not everyone with baldness has inflammation. Ive seen this myself as Ive seen some balding guys whose scalps arent pinkinsh up there. Then again Ive seen some pale balding men whose scalps are hot pink upstairs (hope they didnt notice me furtiveley lookin' at their heads).

Ah, well............SOMEDAY they are gonna figure it out (haven't we all heard that before-LOL). Have a great football day.