Study: Propecia Responders and Non-Responders

HairlossTalk

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New meaning 2004. What do you guys think about this?

Effectiveness of Finasteride on patients with male pattern baldness who have different Androgen Receptor Gene Polymorphism

Objectives:
Most of male pattern baldness (male pattern baldness) patients have androgen-dependent trait although it is under control of multiple genes, such as genes for androgen receptor (AR) IGF-1 and DHT (Dihydrotestosterone) regulations.

A 5alpha-reductase inhibitor, finasteride, is effective on male pattern baldness although there is a variation in the efficacy of this drug among the male pattern baldness patients. From the functional mechanism of this drug, it is thought to be effective on male pattern baldness caused by hyper-function of androgen receptors.

Association of polymorphism in the first exon of androgen receptor gene with male pattern baldness has been demonstrated by some authors (Marty Sawaya and Salita 1998, Ellis et al 2001). We have found that there is a correlation between the SYMPTOM level of male pattern baldness and the CAG and GGC repeat leength in the Androgen Receptor gene. We want to investigate relationship between the effectiveness of finasteride and the Androgen Receptor gene polymorphism, we determined the number of triplet repeats in Androgene Receptor gene of patients.

Methods:
Blood Cell DNA was extracted from 740 male pattern baldness patients (age 19 to 62) and 54 men who were not losing their hair (age 44 to 72). After PCR of the first exon of their Androgen Receptor gene, the number of CAG and GGC triplets was determined by conventional sequencing or transcriptional sequencing method. AGGCCT sequence was determined using two different Stul restriction enzymes.

Results and Conclusions:
Effectiveness of Finasteride in each patient was defined as showing improvement on the Norwood scale. Number of the triplet repeats (CAG+GGC) was plotted against the symptom points. There was a broad correlation between these variables.

Finasteride was more effective for patients who had shorter triplet regions of the androgen receptor gene. Therefore hair loss may be caused by a hyper-function of the androgen receptors in these people. On the other hand, Finasteride was LESS effective when we found longer triplet repeats. These people may be losing their hair due to a non-androgenic related mechanism. This sort of analysis may help people choose what treatment to use for their Male Pattern Baldness.

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Now I could be wrong but my understanding is that they established (1) A reason why some people do not respond to Propecia (Finasteride) and (2) That some male pattern baldness is not necessarily Androgenic in nature (DHT is not the culprit). Apparently the difference between responders and non-responders was a notable difference in what they call the "hyper-function" of the androgen receptors. Not sure what this means...

Bryan?
 
G

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Could someone translate or even just sum up the information into a small easily digested sentence with a crispy bread crumb batter.

Cheers

Ty
 

HairlossTalk

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Ty... read the last paragraph where I did that. And we need to get used to reading clinical studies. The important stuff is in the details, every single time. How many people were used, how long it lasted, exactly what they did to test their theory, and exactly what the results consisted of. Way more important than a summary conclusion, although admittedly harder to understand. You just have to read it very slowly, and it will make sense. Moderators can't be lazy. :p

Drink... I don't have it unfortunately.

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Buffboy

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Re: New Study on Propecia (Finasteride)

HairlossTalk said:
These people may be losing their hair due to a non-androgenic related mechanism. This sort of analysis may help people choose what treatment to use for their Male Pattern Baldness.
What kind of treatment would work for non-androgenic balding men?
 
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HairlossTalk said:
Ty... read the last paragraph where I did that. And we need to get used to reading clinical studies. The important stuff is in the details, every single time. How many people were used, how long it lasted, exactly what they did to test their theory, and exactly what the results consisted of. Way more important than a summary conclusion, although admittedly harder to understand. You just have to read it very slowly, and it will make sense. Moderators can't be lazy. :p

Drink... I don't have it unfortunately.

HairLossTalk.com

not for me, for the chilrun' I is saying it for the chilrun'
 

Trent

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that's kinda depressing :-( maybe i will be the unlucky one.

HairLossTalk.com how long did it take you to get some noticeable regrowth in the front. it seems a bit thinner these days for me, though i still have a lot of "half length" hairs in the front shorter than the rest, it just looks thinner to me, and i just finished month five.
 

BadHairDecade

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After PCR of the first exon of their Androgen Receptor gene, the number of CAG and GGC triplets was determined by conventional sequencing or transcriptional sequencing method.


I'll be in the corner with my playschool squeaky hammer :smash:
 

jason566

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Ok so this study concludes that dht may not be the cuplprit of hairloss in some men?..which is why they do not respond to propecia..so my question is..what is the other x factor that causing these men loss if it isnt the dht?..I dont follow that study..im very slowwwwwwwwww
 

Buffboy

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jason566 said:
Ok so this study concludes that dht may not be the cuplprit of hairloss in some men?..which is why they do not respond to propecia..so my question is..what is the other x factor that causing these men loss if it isnt the dht?..I dont follow that study..im very slowwwwwwwwww
I guess I asked the same above. :wink:
 

HairlossTalk

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What kind of treatment would work for non-androgenic balding men?
You'd have to default to growth stimulants, since there really is no other specific *type* of hair loss treatment than 5alpha reductase inhibitors/androgen blockers & growth stimulants. Since 5ar inhibitors (propecia) and androgen receptor blockers (topical spironolactone) both deal with hyper-androgen receptivity (is that the term they used for guys who had predisposition to Androgenetic Alopecia in the study above?) ... the only thing left out there would be a growth stimulant that just tries to make hair grow despite whatever the real cause is.

not for me, for the chilrun' I is saying it for the chilrun'
Actually its for both of us too. Id like to hear Bryan's assessment of this study before I assume too much.

that's kinda depressing maybe i will be the unlucky one.
Cmon Trent. Cup half full, man. Absolutely no reason for you to assume you're going to be one of the 17% nonresponders when there's an 83% chance you'll respond well. Bad bad logic my friend! Think positive.

Ok so this study concludes that dht may not be the cuplprit of hairloss in some men?
To be more accurate, I'd say this study adds evidence to that theory. Wouldn't say it concludes it, however ... 17% of Propecia users don't respond to Propecia, so ... there's always been that group that just plain doesn't respond to 5ar inhibitors (DHT blockers), and I think this study sought to start finding reasons *why* that is.

They found differences in the structure of the Androgen Receptors, or fewer of them, or ... a difference in the genes that are expressed in non-responders.

They mentioned the polymorphism of androgen receptors. Im guessing again but I think this refers to the *change* we go through when our hairs become sensitive to DHT. What is actually happening is an increased sensitivity of the androgen receptors to DHT. So thats the polymorphism they're referring to I think.

So they found a difference in the genes that cause that process to occur. As if in fact for some guys, androgens and DHT are not even a factor.

my question is..what is the other x factor that causing these men loss if it isnt the dht?
This study didn't seek to determine what causes hair loss in those other men, only to try and find out what might be different about the nonresponders. They found a trait common in the non responders and a trait common in the responders. Its a small step forward in understanding it. Figuring out what the real cause is for the nonresponders, Id say, would be way harder.

HairLossTalk.com
 

Petchsky

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Does that mean then....If you are not sensitive to DHT and you use minoxidil, would minoxidil work for a great number of years as opposed to 4/5 ????

Where's Bryan when you need him :ermm:
 

hairface

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with yer mom d00od!

just joking! 8)
 

moegreen

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Wow, explains why finis isn't working very well for me (althought it has definitely fucked with my libido and prostate).
 

elguapo

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Why are we getting this NOW, HairLossTalk.com!?! Is it not 2005?

I agree- moderators should not be lazy. =)

In all seriousness, thank you for the article. Good stuff!
 

HairlossTalk

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I want to state very clearly that this study would NOT APPLY to someone who hasn't been on Propecia religiously, daily, for a full 12 months and still seen zero results. Even then you may still have Androgenetic Alopecia but other factors may be coming into play. Like who knows .. maybe you have more DHT than most guys. Maybe Propecia didn't work as well in you at doing its job. So three factors here:

1) This doesn't apply unless you've been on it a full year with zero results.

2) If you've maintained your hair, you HAVE had results. Results does not mean regrowth, necessarily.

3) You may still have Androgenetic Alopecia and further DHT inhibition (with additional products) may be called for simply because of factors yet undiscovered like DHT loads or decreased effectiveness of Propecia in the particular person, etc etc ...

4) This study only showed that some non responders may not have Androgenetic Alopecia as their type of hair loss. Doesn't mean all non responders are hopeless. I would try adding spironolactone or Revivogen or both, to Propecia, to double the effectiveness. Who knows.

Im tired. Gnight

HairLossTalk.com
 

S Foote.

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I don't think this study is correct in proposing an alternative `non DHT' pathway for male pattern baldness in some individuals. I think it is well established that rising levels of DHT in the individual male, `trigger' a process that leads to male pattern baldness.

I think what this study shows is that some people just have more `efficient' androgen receptors than others, that more easily `take up' circulating DHT, and it is the total systematic levels of DHT that are significant in creating male pattern baldness in the individual.

The current `direct' theory of male pattern baldness, states that it is the DHT produced within the follicle cells that interacts with the genes within these cells to produce male pattern baldness. This is primarily type 2 5AR produced DHT, that Finasteride reduces. However, Finasteride does not effect the type 1 5Ar produced DHT levels in the body.

I think it is the `total' systematic level of DHT in the individual that effect hair growth `indirectly'. and i think this study supports this. An `indirect' effect of DHT on hair growth, would still have to be mediated via androgen receptors!

If it is the systematic levels of both types of enzyme produced DHT that are important, an individual with these more `efficient' receptors would require more DHT reduction for the same `effect' on male pattern baldness than others with less efficient receptors. This is the simple `odds' principle. More efficient receptors are more likely to `hook up' with the available DHT.


I think the vast body of available evidence, supports the theory that the effect is `systematic' and not local within the follicle as is currently thought. I suggest this study is yet another nail in the coffin of the current `direct' theory.

Come on Bryan, chime in anytime!

S Foote.
 

Petchsky

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I have come across a few posters who said propecia did nothing for them, but then went on dutasteride and saw good results.. thats kind of weird. I'm no scientist but grand theories taking the blanket approach always have a big margin of error.

Bryan - Stop humping my mum in get your bum in here...its getting scientific and we need a translator. :lol:
 

mvpsoft

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Petchsky said:
I have come across a few posters who said propecia did nothing for them, but then went on dutasteride and saw good results.. thats kind of weird. I'm no scientist but grand theories taking the blanket approach always have a big margin of error.
I don't see why this is mysterious. Dutasteride inbibits the formation of DHT to a much greater extent than finasteride does. If DHT plays a role at all in male pattern baldness, which it obviously does, then it is not only possible but likely that for some people finasteride will not be sufficient to generate results but dutasteride will.

What would be weird is that if people saw results with finasteride but not with dutasteride.
 

HairlossTalk

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I was on AIM today and made sure Bryan saw this very thread. I told him "S FOOTE CALLED YOU OUT!!!" and he laughed. He'll get around to responding. After all .. he is BRYAN ... one cannot rush bryan!

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