spironolactone/Ru Side Effects

[jmoss1982]

From April through November I used topical spironolactone (first 5% cream and then 2% solution). I then switched to topical RU (100 mg and then 20 mg) for two weeks.

I had side effects with both. Tho the side effects were more pronounced with the RU. ED, low libido and clear almost water like semen. Plus I'm pretty sure my testicles have gotten smaller.

I took 50-100 mg of zinc for a few weeks. No change. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Ende]

Do some blood work. You need to know what you're dealing with. Check at least LH, FSH, testosterone, estrogen, prolactin and SHBG.

 

[Primo]

I had similar side effects with topical spironolactone also. I only used it for a few weeks.

Some of it, however small the amount, still clearly gets absorbed into your system and if you've got sensitive hormones then it's still going to give you sides, even if it is topical.

Also I have heard people getting sides off RU too, there's a thread about it on another site, even the mighty El Duterino admitted to getting sides from this topical, not as bad as Finasteride obviously, but still very noticeable.

Take some Zinc like Enden says and your hormones should be okay again after a month or two, I fully recovered after 4 or 5 weeks.

 

[jmoss1982]

Do some blood work. You need to know what you're dealing with. Check at least LH, FSH, testosterone, estrogen, prolactin and SHBG.

Testosterone 460 (236-1076)
LH 2.7 (1.5-9.3)
FSH 6.7 (1.6-8.0)
DHT 38 (25-75)
Estradiol 25 (10-50)
SHBG 29 (7-50)
Prolactin 12.4 (2-18)


My libido is still low and I'm not getting frequent erections. My ejaculate is still clear.

 

[Ende]

Transparent prostate fluid indicates DHT deficiency. As you see, all of your hormones are in range, but the ratios are probably bad. Are you able to convert your testosterone and estrogen result to nmol/l? We have discussed the problem a lot lately, and I would recommend using an aromatase inhibitor like Arimidex, to create an androgenic enviroment and give the DHT level a chance to raise, if estrogen is the problem.

Typically, after using finasteride with severe side effects, we're dealing with increased estrogen-, prolactin- and SHBG level, and suppressed DHT, testosterone and dopamine level. However, you've not been using a reductase inhibitor. Both of the drugs block AR receptors locally on your scalp, with supposedly low systemic absorption. Low libido and frequency of erections may be related to increased prolactin level/suppressed dopamine level.

You could try creatine monohydrate, 25 g a day for one week. It'll increase your DHT level by 50% without affecting the testosterone level. Read more about it in my thread.

It sounds like you're dealing with some sort of suppression according to your symptoms, and I assume estrogen, which usually is the problem, after using anti-androgens. My guess is that those drugs bound to AR receptors on your HPTA, and thereby increased testosterone production for a while, which then shifted your ratios by increased aromatase activity. Estrogen is very suppressive to your testosterone production.

 

[jmoss1982]

Sorry Enden I can't convert the T and E into nmol/l.

Do you really think that my DHT levels are too low? They're well in the normal range and seemingly on par with my T levels. As for the E I also see the following in the report:

Estradiol, Free 0.48 (0.30-0.90 pg/mL)
Estradiol, % Free 1.93 (1.66-2.11 %)

As shown before:

Estradiol 25 (10-50 pg/mL)

Also I've begun using 5 mg of Selegiline 2-3 times/week. I do this every winter as I feel it boosts my immune system. Last winter, after taking the Selegiline I would get a nice boost to my libido. However now when I take it, the libido boosting effect is not evident whatsoever. Strange don't you think?

As for reducing prolactin, I only know of using Cabergoline but I'm not sure if that's safe.

 

[Mens Rea]

LH and Testosterone is low buddy.

It will hopefully recover naturally. Certainly i would start working out , maybe take some L-arginine.

Your estrogen, DHT, FSH etc seem to be ok but these could be negatively affected if your tesosterone production remains low...

Reducing prolactin? Your readings are fine, no cause for concern. Not to mention these levels vary drastically.

 

[jmoss1982]

Thanks Colin.

I've been working out since 10/8. Low weights/high reps have lead to defined muscles and leaner build. Is the theory behind L-Arginine that it will boost NO and therefore better erections?

As for enhancing LH & T what should I do? I definitely don't want exogenous T or HCG to stimulate LH production. Anything I could do to naturally nudge all of my hormones back to their normal state?

LH and Testosterone is low buddy.

It will hopefully recover naturally. Certainly i would start working out , maybe take some L-arginine.

Your estrogen, DHT, FSH etc seem to be ok but these could be negatively affected if your tesosterone production remains low...

Reducing prolactin? Your readings are fine, no cause for concern. Not to mention these levels vary drastically.

 

[Mens Rea]

Thanks Colin.

I've been working out since 10/8. Low weights/high reps have lead to defined muscles and leaner build. Is the theory behind L-Arginine that it will boost NO and therefore better erections?

As for enhancing LH & T what should I do? I definitely don't want exogenous T or HCG to stimulate LH production. Anything I could do to naturally nudge all of my hormones back to their normal state?

LH and Testosterone is low buddy.

It will hopefully recover naturally. Certainly i would start working out , maybe take some L-arginine.

Your estrogen, DHT, FSH etc seem to be ok but these could be negatively affected if your tesosterone production remains low...

Reducing prolactin? Your readings are fine, no cause for concern. Not to mention these levels vary drastically.

Well if you were using HCG you'd prob need to use an AI like arimidex to ensure that wasn't the case.

Yes the connection with Nitric Oxide is an important one but I believe it should also help testosterone (marginally i would imagine)

Zinc. It is said zinc is responsible for up to 30% of our natural T production so take it.

Vitamin D3 might help in larger doses if you were interested in that.

DIM/Brocolli can help rid your body of "bad" estrogens.

Exercise should help. Heavier weight lifting and lower reps would help better than what you're doing.

http://www.nowloss.com/ways-to-increase ... eroids.htm


.....I wouldn't take any drugs because i would expect you to recover naturally. The semen is an annoying one, it may indicate prostrate changes.

 

[Ende]

Colin, I've yet to see evidence that prolactin fluctuates in males. It's linked to the amount of estrogen. Prolactin is high enough to be causing problems. Without baseline values, you should deplete the level. I've heard about guys having trouble if their prolactin level raises a bit, even on a single digit amount. Your levels doesn't matter. You need to focus on ratios. According to symptoms, you're DHT deficient.

Dostinex is safe. 0.25 mg twice a week, for a couple of weeks, should deplete your level.

 

[Mens Rea]

Colin, I've yet to see evidence that prolactin fluctuates in males. It's linked to the amount of estrogen. Prolactin is high enough to be causing problems. Without baseline values, you should deplete the level. I've heard about guys having trouble if their prolactin level raises a bit, even on a single digit amount. Your levels doesn't matter. You need to focus on ratios. According to symptoms, you're DHT deficient.

Dostinex is safe. 0.25 mg twice a week, for a couple of weeks, should deplete your level.

My endo deals with this on a daily basis so ive accepted what he told me. Not to mention that prolactin goes down and up like a yo yo before and after sex You'd need a few readings of it to base any judgements.

As for his....its mid range, how you can say its high enough to cause problems, particularly in light of the above, I'm not sure. As you say though, ratios are important but we don't have baselines so we can't conclude either way with any real degress of certainty.

If he's DHT deficient its because his LH and Testosterone is low. That's the root problem imo.

 

[Ende]

My endo deals with this on a daily basis so ive accepted what he told me. Not to mention that prolactin goes down and up like a yo yo before and after sex You'd need a few readings of it to base any judgements.

As for his....its mid range, how you can say its high enough to cause problems, particularly in light of the above, I'm not sure. As you say though, ratios are important but we don't have baselines so we can't conclude either way with any real degress of certainty.

If he's DHT deficient its because his LH and Testosterone is low. That's the root problem imo.

Sure, it changes a bit in relation to sexual activity, but you make it sound like it bounces in the whole range, which it doesn't as far as I know. Prolactin is linked to estrogen. I've a couple of readings myself, and it's slowly upregulating itself.

Prolactin isn't important, but it messes with your sexual function. He doesn't know his baseline value, and everyone who doesn't, should deplete the prolactin level if they're having sexual problems.

The root of the problem is probably estrogen, like in every other case on this board.

 

[Mens Rea]

It mightn't bounce from low to high but it can certainly bouce around.

You shouldn't just go around depleting mid-range prolactin on a whim at any rate (imo).

Given T and E offset one another you're right, but in his cause its his testosterone production that is compromised hence the low T and low LH.

IMO what has happened here is that the after going off the spironolactone, TS DHT's levels rose again which reduces testosterone levels. His levels didn't reset to the prior levels - they went lower. The 15% (this is what finasteride does anyway) increase in estrogen whilst on the drug seems to have unbalanced T/LH even after cessation and he hasn't recovered since going off it.

Just like estrogen isn't the root problem for where steroid users have degraded testosterone production, i think it isnt the root problem here. The debate is rather academic though given the connection.

Anyway, Merry Christmas mate we shouldn't be discussing this crap on Christmas

 

[Ende]

Yes, I believe that the testosterone production is compromised as you put it, too, but in case of drug use, it's because of suppression. The drugs he has used, blocks androgen receptors. They were both used as topicals on the scalp, but systemic absorption is possible with any drug. I think that they bound to his HPTA, and that way manipulated the negative feedback mechanism, like in the case with SERM's, only you've a lot more testosterone, and those drugs probably would increase the testosterone production a lot more than a SERM.

On the other hand, since they block androgen receptors, maybe it's possible that they bind to reducatse enzymes too, since testosterone does. Maybe his case isn't any different from those with finasteride, after all.

Some body builders struggle to recover because of an imbalance offset during their cycle, and in some cases because of a certain amount of steroids which keeps suppressing their testosterone production long after the cycle. Nandrolone decanoate, "Deca", is a good example. It's traceable in serum for up to 18 months after use, and it's notorius for raising progesterone and prolactin, according to BB's, and a PCT with a SERM won't solve this.

You don't get secondary hypogonadism without imbalance, which causes suppression because of the negative feedback mechanism. Drugs or prolactinomas are usually the cause.

Do you have a good reason for not depleting the prolactin level?

Merry christmas to you too, mate

 

[Mens Rea]

Yes, I believe that the testosterone production is compromised as you put it, too, but in case of drug use, it's because of suppression. The drugs he has used, blocks androgen receptors. They were both used as topicals on the scalp, but systemic absorption is possible with any drug. I think that they bound to his HPTA, and that way manipulated the negative feedback mechanism, like in the case with SERM's, only you've a lot more testosterone, and those drugs probably would increase the testosterone production a lot more than a SERM.

On the other hand, since they block androgen receptors, maybe it's possible that they bind to reducatse enzymes too, since testosterone does. Maybe his case isn't any different from those with finasteride, after all.

Some body builders struggle to recover because of an imbalance offset during their cycle, and in some cases because of a certain amount of steroids which keeps suppressing their testosterone production long after the cycle. Nandrolone decanoate, "Deca", is a good example. It's traceable in serum for up to 18 months after use, and it's notorius for raising progesterone and prolactin, according to BB's, and a PCT with a SERM won't solve this.

You don't get secondary hypogonadism without imbalance, which causes suppression because of the negative feedback mechanism. Drugs or prolactinomas are usually the cause.

Do you have a good reason for not depleting the prolactin level?

Merry christmas to you too, mate

Simply that doing so involves taking drugs and TS wishes to avoid this route intially. Secondary, because from personal experience it didn't help me (and i had top range prolactin) so i imagine the effects on TS who already has mid-range prolactin would be extremely minimal.

Thirdly because my endo told me people's prolactin's are all over the place so taking it upon yourself to deplete a mid-range reading seems a little premature and probably, misguided and unnecessary given it wouldn't really address any root causes anyway.

 

[Ende]

Thirdly because my endo told me people's prolactin's are all over the place so taking it upon yourself to deplete a mid-range reading seems a little premature and probably, misguided and unnecessary given it wouldn't really address any root causes anyway.

Yeah, before you're closing in on the optimum testosterone/estrogen ratio, and still not feel recovered...

 

[Mens Rea]

Yeah, perhaps.

The preferred option, imo, would be to fix the root cause. When you're happy with your T and E levels etc and you think Prolactin is or is still a problem, then it may be worth experimenting with. Because lets be honest, it is experimenting and doesn't seem to be something the top endo's have as a part of their protocols either....

 

[Ende]

You won't feel recovered, when you hit the spot, if your prolactin level is too high. It'll interfere. How are you supposed to know when the ratio is optimum? Depleting the prolactin level doesn't have any negative consequenses. Ignoring it, does. Endocrinologists doesn't know sh*t about finasteride.

 

[Mens Rea]

How are you supposed to know when the ratio is optimum? Depleting the prolactin level doesn't have any negative consequenses. Ignoring it, does. Endocrinologists doesn't know sh*t about finasteride.

But they know plenty about prolactin levels. He spoke about them for a good 5 minutes when i mentioned my levels.

His level doesn't appear high. If you took a measurement of most people's prolactin levels they'd probably be similar or higher.

Enden, lets be honest here. Most people with soley prolactin problems are people who develop pertuity tumors. They have problems because their levels can be like 5 times the range, often even crazier.

You won't feel recovered, when you hit the spot, if your prolactin level is too high. It'll interfere.

Do you have any evidence that a mid-range prolactin level would interfere with someone who has perfect ratios elsewhere?

Given that prolactin varies and we only have one mid-range reading i don't see the issue to be frank.

As you say though, it's not a big deal as cabergoline is relatively safe. I'm just saying it's probably not a big deal for someone not displaying high prolactin. To be honest you're the only person that's ever told me otherwise.

 

[Ende]

You find some stories in the body building community, as some of them use steroids which is able to increase your prolactin level. Prolactin and dopamine affects your sexual function. I noticed a large improvement in refraction period and libido after dropping my prolactin level from 650 mIE/l to zero.

A producer of generic finasteride, said that hyperprolactinaemia is a common cause for sexual side effects from finasteride. A guy at propeciahelp contacted the producer by e-mail, and posted the response. Prolactin is linked to estrogen, and we're having trouble with estrogen. If your level is supposed to be at 100 mIE/l, 300 is too much, even though it's still in "normal" range. Prolactin varies a bit, but it doesn't fluctuate in the whole range. I know. Like I said, I depleted my prolactin level, and I've had a couple of readings afterwards, which shows that the prolactin level increases slowly.

Why take the chance?