spironolactone or fluridil?

[Steven85]

Thanks again for the thorough reply. I think Im a nw2/2,5 btw, not really sure.

Im sure your advice on starting spironolactone before finasteride is good, but seeing as I have already been on finasteride for 7 weeks now and feeling confident about using it, I want to continue that. And you asked about baldness in my family - my dad is pretty bald.

So I guess I pretty much have decided which route Im gonna take from here. Ill continue with finasteride, then add rogaine/spironolactone when I'm starting to lose ground. At the point where I'm starting to lose ground again Ill think about RU and all that other stuff (hoping a real cure has come out by that time).

I still want to use keto shampoo alongside finasteride though and here is the only thing that I have left to decide. Im pretty sure revita contains 1% keto, as I have seen that been confirmed by a lot of people on different forums (I have emailed the manufacturer myself, but have not got a reply). So if it contains 1% (I will get that positively confirmed), and at the same time all that other stuff, it has to be at least as good as nizoral 1% right - and most likely slightly better?

So with that in mind - and knowing that revita is supposed to be applied everyday - I'm thinking that I should stick with revita for now (perhaps complement it with nizoral 2% once in a while). Then when Im losing ground I can start with the 2% nizoral regularly. What do you think about that?

Oh, and the reason I was researching spironolactone and fluridil was all the horror finasteride stories I read on these forum saying finasteride made hair worse or definitely not improve. That made me think I should add a topical antiandrogen to minimize the risk of that happening to me.

Your photos before and after the big 3 show great improvement btw. Congratulations on achieving that!

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Darn.. Just when I had it all (almost) mapped out I remember reading something about rogaine suggesting I should start using it now, and not later on. It was something about rogaine only having an effect as long as the hair follicles (or something like that) are still alive. And that although you have lost hair the follicles are still alive for a couple of years or something. When that time has passed and the follicles are dead, rogaine has little chance of regrowing anything.

According to this theory I definitely should start rogaine now. Whats your take on that?

Sorry about all the questions.

 

[TheLastHairbender]

Thanks for the positive comments Steven! I didn't realize you've already been on finasteride for almost 2 months - I need to start re-reading OPs! It's actually that I'm talking to a few different people at length right now in different threads and it's hard to keep it all straight.

Regarding minoxidil, that's generally true. It doesn't seem to be able to regrow hair that has been lost for a long time, outside of a year by my estimation but that certainly varies greatly with peoples' individual responses to minoxidil. And yes, the manufacturer definitely wants you to start using it as soon as possible. Looking at my before pictures, I had a lot of dead/missing follicles on the direct top of my head which I was able to recover with minoxidil. I had only lost that hair within the previous year, though. Even after 14 months, it hasn't been able to regrow much of the crown in the back, where I had been rocking a growing bald spot for 2-3 years. It seems to have shrunk from the outside a bit, indicating that it's worked better the more recently the hair had fallen out. I think everyone agrees that this feature of minoxidil is true.

To digress for a second to provide you some other relevant information: so far there really isn't any solid way to regrow hair on a slick bald scalp once the follicles have been dead for too long. That's exactly where I'm at now on the vertex. I've had that bald spot for a few years and all the finasteride, spironolactone, and minoxidil I could apply over the past year haven't done much to sprout hair in the eye of that storm. I think bimatoprost and miconazole nitrate hold the most promise for this purpose, and now that my growth everywhere else has leveled off and I'm completely happy with it, I'm embarking on a mission to get new hair to grow on that long-dead vertex. I'm trying 2.5% - 5% topical AHK-Cu bombed directly onto the skin there for the next five months (although my belief is that AHK-Cu isn't going to make new hairs sprout up, rather its effectiveness is more likely in improving the quality of the scalp and thus benefiting existing hair growth all over). Then I'm doing a 6 week round of Aminexil, a treatment to reduce perifollicular fibrosis, improving the quality of the skin on the scalp in preparation a month-long run at 15% minoxidil for one of my daily applications. If improved scalp conditions and 15% minoxidil don't get those follicles in gear again, I'm going with miconazole nitrate 4% for the following six months. If things aren't looking better after month 3 I'm including a daily rub of .05% Retin-A to increase cellular turnover and improve absorption of the miconazole. If none of that can get it done, then I'm willing to start testing out some of the new stuff, probably bimatoprost since it looks to be a strong growth promoter and its safety has been established by the FDA. But the story for me at present is all about growth promoters, growth promoters, growth promoters, all to overcome the issue you're trying to avoid right now.


Whether that means you should start minoxidil immediately is up to you. Starting now will give you the best chances to regrow anything you've lost so far. But it doesn't sound like additional regrowth is a big priority though. While always nice, it would mean committing to twice daily applications of minoxidil for the next 5, 10, 15? years or more. It can definitely be worth it, for me it certainly was because I had a ton of upside to capture, I was nearly slick bald all across the top, but doing all that just to keep looking roughly the same as today can get old after awhile. If you're happy with your current look and the finasteride demonstrates that its doing its job over the next couple months, the limited potential upside may not be worth the cost, hassle, and accelerating the date that minoxidil stops working for you.

What you're asking is completely a personal preference though. Do you want slightly better hair from year 0 to 1 or to keep that hair from year T-1 to T, whether that be year 5 to year 6 or year 10 to year 11 from now? Don't discount that your thirties will someday come. Plus minoxidil is just a pain in the ***, next to sides from finasteride the inconvenience of minoxidil is probably the next biggest reason people drop their regimen and lose everything. Sleepovers at gf's? You'll be bringing your bottle of minoxidil and sneaking off to rub it in before bed (and trying to use the vent to make it dry faster, which doesn't work by the way) and doing the same thing in the morning. Vacation? Better bring a bottle of minoxidil. Night at the clubs or bars? Better get home and apply that minoxidil! It's a commitment. Ever pass out on the couch at night before brushing your teeth? Can't do that anymore, gotta get to the bathroom and apply that minoxidil. And no swimming, showering, or getting stuck in the rain for the first four hours after you apply it. Depending on the humidity it can take an hour or two to feel dry after each application. If you're awake for 16 hours a day then you're talking about spending almost a quarter of your waking life with a wet scalp. The possibility of reducing that burden for another year or two while extending the life of your hair for awhile longer at the end might be worth giving up the potential gains at the moment. You could be happy with the way you look now and just let the weakest of those soldiers die, even if permanently. On the other hand if those things aren't that discouraging then you absolutely can start minoxidil now. I don't really think it's a question anyone can answer but you though. Israelite, bless his heart, will come tell you to get on every treatment available, right now, for the best chances of regrowing anything you've lost. And he's right, with a ridiculously hairy dome to prove it. But he's not happy with a head of hair that would make most of us proud...I think he's trying to make his hairline connect to his eyebrows now...but his regimen is probably a lot more taxing than most, although it does seem like he has it down to a science by now. (Mark you know I've got tons of respect for you buddy, just illustrating the differences between the extremes here, and you are definitely an extreme.) So it's fact that starting now gives you the best chance of regrowth. Is making that commitment so early worth a little regrowth? That's up to you. You shouldn't have to worry about the follicles dying permanently though, the finasteride is meant to stop exactly that process, preserving your hair's ability to successfully accept minoxidil for longer down the road. It might even reverse some miniaturization and make your existing hair thicker without minoxidil.

The possibility of waiting on minoxidil though is completely dependent on your response to finasteride. If your progression isn't sufficiently halted by finasteride over the next several months, then definitely start with the minoxidil to get them while they're still alive and give spironolactone another look too for extra protection. You don't have to answer all these questions today though. You know what you're looking at; be patient and evaluate your response to finasteride and that will help you make better decisions about when to start using minoxidil and whether spironolactone needs to be part of your regimen right away. Hope that info helps, and man I need to stop writing so much. You better read all of that because I haven't got a lick of work done in almost 3 hours now! Best wishes bud

 

[sxyhairwatch]

spironolactone doesn't have systemic effects ? I would say it does from personal experience. Anything you put on your skin is absorbed. Anything. How well and how much depend on the concentration, delivery agents and other factors, but yes some spironolactone will get where it isn't wanted. The effects are not particularly severe, and miniscule compared to toxic anti-man crap like Finastride or its herbal equivalent Saw Palmetto, they are they are there.

 

[Steven85]

TheLastHairbender I can assure I have read every word you have written in this tread, and I really appreciate your response.

I have decided to continue just finasteride (and nizoral/revita) for a few months more at least, then make a new consideration about starting rogaine (applying it once a day). Thank you for making me come to that conclusion.

Now the only thing I have left to decide is whether I should continue nizoral 2% or revita or both (ref. my last post about revita containing 1 % keto), but Im not even gonna ask you to answer that. My conscience is guilty enough as it is, knowing you spend hours writing dissertations to answer my questions (OK, if you really want to you can answer it, but i understand perfectly well if enough is enough).

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I have made a new thread under Men's General Hair Loss Discussions with my revita views and questions.

 

[TheLastHairbender]

spironolactone doesn't have systemic effects ? I would say it does from personal experience. Anything you put on your skin is absorbed. Anything. How well and how much depend on the concentration, delivery agents and other factors, but yes some spironolactone will get where it isn't wanted. The effects are not particularly severe, and miniscule compared to toxic anti-man crap like Finastride or its herbal equivalent Saw Palmetto, they are they are there.

Is this belief in spite of the cited clinical research to the contrary?

Anything you put on your skin is absorbed. Anything.

In fact, only molecules smaller than 41.67 times the mass of an unbound, resting carbon-12 atom will be absorbed by the skin.

Now the only thing I have left to decide is whether I should continue nizoral 2% or revita or both (ref. my last post about revita containing 1 % keto), but Im not even gonna ask you to answer that. My conscience is guilty enough as it is, knowing you spend hours writing dissertations to answer my questions (OK, if you really want to you can answer it, but i understand perfectly well if enough is enough).

I'd love to answer that for you Steven but I really don't have an indication one way or the other. Fortunately, I believe it's a question of little import. ...What would I do personally? Well I continue to use 2% keto and Aveda pure abundance and have not switched to Revita despite awareness of the product. (I also wouldn't throw it away if I had already bought it though). Good luck!

 

[Harry S Truman]

I love how people dismiss others personal experiences regarding sides.... To anyone who's considering taking a drug, know your body, if something is off, its prob best to stop or at least investigated the source...

Its those who disregard the signs and kept continuing use (on back of some random board a**h** who sited a study from 15 years ago) who unfortunately have long/longer lasting side effects.... (not always the case)

Listen to what your body is telling you...

 

[TheLastHairbender]

Still, there has been a non-negligible number of reports of gynecomastia from topical spironolactone use, which seem to follow the discontinuation of oral anti-androgens for the same reason. It's possible that individuals exist in the hair loss community with sensitivities to estrogen that were not well-represented in the small N studies referenced.

That side of the story was also presented, in post #20 ITT.

And I think your summary of my contribution here is a bit uncouth - I've spent nigh 20 hours this week addressing our brother's questions in turn, responding from my own experience and known research results. That those results have not been formally discredited in, I believe you meant, twenty-five years is testament to their robustness.

But hey

 

[Steven85]

Thanks alot for all your help lasthairbender! And good luck with all the regrowth projects you got going on. You'll be a nw1 again some day I bet. Keep up the good attitude and the constructive posting

 

[TheLastHairbender]

No problem Steven, your hair is going to be awesome! And not looking for NW1 here, I'm so happy with where I'm at I'd just like to keep it for l o n g e r ​!