RU makes you go bald faster long term? A theory

[Abomination]

When I say RU I also mean CB and spironolactone.

The theory is that as you go and chronically inhibit a receptor, in this case androgenic receptors, the body will eventually find a way to up-regulate them, which means that you'll go bald faster as the sensitivity goes up and smaller amounts of androgens are required for the follicles to miniaturize.

I haven't seen evidence that proves this isn't the case and I reckon we are going to see a lot of RU/CB/spironolactone users going bald within the next 1-3 years. Im following MoreDatesMorePlates guy for instance since he still had hairloss with 0 DHT with using dutasteride, but found a way to stabilize it and even regrowth with RU (assuming he isn't frauding with hair makeup to sell affiliate links.. but let's assume he's legit.)

We'll see what happens to the chronic androgen receptor blocker users. So far, im not convinced to use them. Not only it's dodgy as hell that you have to trust some chinese guy selling you research stuff, but the theory proposed here makes me hesitant to incorporate it in my portfolio.

I would like to know how many people here is using RU/CB/spironolactone for years with good results and no increased baldness.

 

[Ausgebombt]

Never really understood this logic.

If saturating the scalp with an antagonist like RU causes AR to upregulate, then wouldn’t stopping RU cause AR to downregulate again?

If something can upregulate, it can also downregulate

 

[Dasjes]

I agree with Ausgebombt. Furthermore, there is only a finite amount of androgen receptors a hair follicle can develop. If a 5ARI + Topical AA combo is sufficient to surpass that protection "threshold", you can (in theory) maintain indefinitely.

 

[jazz1]

I think the guys legit.

 

[Abomination]

I agree with Ausgebombt. Furthermore, there is only a finite amount of androgen receptors a hair follicle can develop. If a 5ARI + Topical AA combo is sufficient to surpass that protection "threshold", you can (in theory) maintain indefinitely.

Im talking about higher sensitivity of said number of androgen receptors. The idea is that by using RU/CB you tell your body "stop being sensitive to androgens" by blocking the receptors, and that the body eventually finds a way to make the receptors more sensitive which means the same amount of exposure to androgens would now make you go bald faster. Im sure there's some studies regarding blockage of androgen receptors and sensitivity but I dont have he time to look it up.

 

[Illusion]

This actually happens to AR in the prostate I believe. I think I've read somewhere that AR become more sensitive (aka upregulation) to androgens when prostate cancer is treated with AA medication (such as bicalutamide etc) but don't quote me on that. Should be easy to find though. I also believe that regarding AR in the scalp, not a lot of research has been done. Scalp AR and prostate AR are different from each other so you can't say that upregulation happens in the scalp AR because it happens in prostate AR, but it seems likely.

There are anecdotal reports of people needing to keep increasing their RU dosage because their current dosage stops working, I'm guessing you're hinting at those reports?

 

[Dasjes]

Im talking about higher sensitivity of said number of androgen receptors. The idea is that by using RU/CB you tell your body "stop being sensitive to androgens" by blocking the receptors, and that the body eventually finds a way to make the receptors more sensitive which means the same amount of exposure to androgens would now make you go bald faster. Im sure there's some studies regarding blockage of androgen receptors and sensitivity but I dont have he time to look it up.

"Androgen receptor upregulation" means more target receptors being created at the site. So even if chronic topical AA use induces upregulation, a strong enough dose (combined with a favorable environment created by taking a 5ARI) can "overpower" your natural androgens indefinitely.

 

[Abomination]

This actually happens to AR in the prostate I believe. I think I've read somewhere that AR become more sensitive (aka upregulation) to androgens when prostate cancer is treated with AA medication (such as bicalutamide etc) but don't quote me on that. Should be easy to find though. I also believe that regarding AR in the scalp, not a lot of research has been done. Scalp AR and prostate AR are different from each other so you can't say that upregulation happens in the scalp AR because it happens in prostate AR, but it seems likely.

There are anecdotal reports of people needing to keep increasing their RU dosage because their current dosage stops working, I'm guessing you're hinting at those reports?

I haven't seen these specific reports. Im just making a general thesis on androgen receptor upregulation and how it would make sense to consider this problem, and how could make use of AR blockers for hairloss in order to block testosterone, if that is even possible to begin with, because I can't think of a way were if this is correct you wouldn't upregulate and thus go bald faster.

We definitely need ways to block more androgens than DHT. The guy from the video had 0 DHT (at least in serum, but I would assume scalp DHT was low too) and he was still balding until he added RU, so if he is legit, it would mean that androgens that aren't DHT are still powerful enough to continue causing baldness. The main problem is once again: How the f*** do we get rid of the rest of androgens when all we have is 5ar inhibitors or the nukes (AR blockers)

 

[Abomination]

"Androgen receptor upregulation" means more target receptors being created at the site. So even if chronic topical AA use induces upregulation, a strong enough dose (combined with a favorable environment created by taking a 5ARI) can "overpower" your natural androgens indefinitely.

So what you are saying is that you have to increase your RU dosage ad infinitum. Doesn't seem like a good idea, specially considering you are using dodgy chinese stuff that's expensive. It's also not clear to me this would work since the more you block the androgens the higher the upregulation so you could create a cascade effect that upregulates exponentially. We would need studies done with actual male pattern baldness sufferers using RU with a good sample but unfortunately we've got nothing. And as far as CB I can't find any broad sample long term (+2 years) usage study on male pattern baldness sufferers.

Also, are you sure upregulation means more receptors being created locally and not that (or also) the receptors become more sensitive? (the same receptor binds easier to the androgens)

 

[Dasjes]

What i'm getting to is that there is a max in so said "upregulation". Just like you can only carry a finite amount of muscle mass and cannot train to grow indefinitely, your hair follicles can only support a finite amount of androgen receptors. If your topical AA dose is large enough to overpower your natural androgens in an environment with a maximized receptor upregulation, it should be possible to maintain indefinitely. Most stories of guys where it stops working after 2 years were using 100 grams at most and no oral 5ARI. The combo is golden.

Furthermore, two things about MPMD's dutasteride blood tests.
First, scalp DHT is always less inhibited than serum DHT. When his blood tests show he has undetectable serum DHT levels, there could still be 5% - 15% scalp DHT left.
Secondly, and more importantly, the guy runs T. And not a normal range dose, judging by the look of his shoulders (which were probably built on heavier steroids, but are impossible to maintain with normal range T levels). The guy probably had 4 - 5 times as much testosterone as we do. This leads to receptor activation that is not seen in men with regular T levels. Look at the pseudo hermaphrodites that led to the discovery of finasteride. They don't have hairloss. But they do have regular testosterone levels.
Baseline testosterone is in most cases not enough to significantly contribute to hairloss.
Superpyhsiological T levels induced by injecting exogenous testosterone are though.