Rogaine losses effectiveness after a year or so?

[Life_sucks]

Well, in theory, if other factors are helping and dht is blocked 80-90% (like dutasteride) then the chart for Rogaine should reach a peak but then remain horizontal from that point onward. (well almost horizontal)

Am I right...somewhat?

 

[Bryan]

I think you misinterepreted what I wrote. I was talking about creating a chart that shows the effectiveness of using minoxidil simultaneously with Ketoconazole and adding it to the existing chart to compare it to just using minoxidil alone and minoxidil with finasteride. I think if that chart showed a combined use of the two or three, it would paint a very different picture of minoxidil.

Don't put so much emphasis on one specific drug in particular (ketoconazole). I was talking about using minoxidil alone, compared to using it together with another drug which does interfere with the fundamental balding process (finasteride).

 

[jksl]

What do you guys think the "stop finasteride" line looks like?

 

[ripple-effect]

I agree with you that it does inform people that using minoxidil will lead to the same offset of growth as people who don't use it. But what it doesn't do is inform people that keto should be used in conjunction with minoxidil. To the newbie who has just started his hairloss, you're "assuming" that he understands this just by looking at the chart, which is difficult since there is no mention of Keto.

So you're basically arguing that this chart means nothing because they didn't use Keto? You know Keto by itself won't stop hair loss, so why do you keep emphasizing that? The chart shows minoxidil + finasteride(stronger than keto) combined still ended up losing effectiveness over time. It is not as fast as the 2 separately, but it still loses effectiveness. This chart is speaking in general terms. Just because you had a friend that hasn't responded accordingly doesn't mean that this means this chart is wrong and you shouldn't pay any attention to it. Individual responses can vary because no two human biological make-ups are the same.

 

[Rashan]

I didn't know Ketoconazole was that big of a factor to be mentioned instead other dht stoppers.

I use Regenepure DR 3/4 times a week, but in all honestly, I just think it plays a very minor role.

You agree?

Well, Keto (or in your case Regenepure which has the same ingredient) isn't a DHT stopper, its an androgen blocker so it plays a completely different role. The problem is this drug hasn't been FDA approved for hair loss (only for dandruff and dermatitis), so their isn't as much research as minoxidil or finasteride which are FDA approved to support its claims for how effective it is.

The general perception of the drug is that is it reduces inflamation from fungus on the scalp having an anti-inflammatory effect and therefor preventing the further activation of androgen receptors which is needed to further stimulate hair growth. So to say that it play a "minor role" couldn't be further from the truth.

 

[Nene]

I didn't know Ketoconazole was that big of a factor to be mentioned instead other dht stoppers.

I use Regenepure DR 3/4 times a week, but in all honestly, I just think it plays a very minor role.

You agree?

Well, Keto (or in your case Regenepure which has the same ingredient) isn't a DHT stopper, its an androgen blocker so it plays a completely different role. The problem is this drug hasn't been FDA approved for hair loss (only for dandruff and dermatitis), so their isn't as much research as minoxidil or finasteride which are FDA approved to support its claims for how effective it is.

The general perception of the drug is that is it reduces inflamation from fungus on the scalp having an anti-inflammatory effect and therefor preventing the further activation of androgen receptors which is needed to further stimulate hair growth. So to say that it play a "minor role" couldn't be further from the truth.

BS. Keto plays a minor roll.

 

[Rashan]

Don't put so much emphasis on one specific drug in particular (ketoconazole). I was talking about using minoxidil alone, compared to using it together with another drug which does interfere with the fundamental balding process (finasteride).

I have to disagree with you. I think there needs to be just as much emphasis on keto as there is on minoxidil and finasteride since they all perform different functions. finasteride being a DHT blocker, minoxidil being a growth stimulant, and Keto being and androgen blocker. The only reason I'm assuming keto (or another adrogen blocker for that matter) is not on that list is because its not FDA approved for hair loss. There haven't been too many studies done with the drug for hair loss, so we really dont know its true effectiveness.

 

[Rashan]

So you're basically arguing that this chart means nothing because they didn't use Keto? You know Keto by itself won't stop hair loss, so why do you keep emphasizing that? The chart shows minoxidil + finasteride(stronger than keto) combined still ended up losing effectiveness over time. It is not as fast as the 2 separately, but it still loses effectiveness. This chart is speaking in general terms. Just because you had a friend that hasn't responded accordingly doesn't mean that this means this chart is wrong and you shouldn't pay any attention to it. Individual responses can vary because no two human biological make-ups are the same.

I never said keto by itself will stop hair loss. I have used finasteride for over 13 years (started in May of 98) and there are many others on here who have used it for 10+ years who can say its hasn't lost its effectiveness. I still have close to 90% of my hair since my late teens/early twenties and have seen greater improvements after adding minoxidil and nizoral still after 3 years.

My only concern with the chart is why would anyone use minoxidil without using an anti-androgen?

 

[ripple-effect]

Don't put so much emphasis on one specific drug in particular (ketoconazole). I was talking about using minoxidil alone, compared to using it together with another drug which does interfere with the fundamental balding process (finasteride).

I have to disagree with you. I think there needs to be just as much emphasis on keto as there is on minoxidil and finasteride since they all perform different functions. finasteride being a DHT blocker, minoxidil being a growth stimulant, and Keto being and androgen blocker. The only reason I'm assuming keto (or another adrogen blocker for that matter) is not on that list is because its not FDA approved for hair loss. There haven't been too many studies done with the drug for hair loss, so we really dont know its true effectiveness.

Well that's the point we're trying to make Rashan. Using minoxidil/finasteride isn't enough. You need to incorporate other things to stave off hair loss as long as possible. You have to remember that Nizoral is a mild anti-androgen. If you can incorporate a stronger version into you're regimen you can bet that you won't also suffer the same fate as users who only use minoxidil or propecia.

I never said keto by itself will stop hair loss.

I never said that you did. I just said you obviously know that it doesn't so why are you bringing it up with the discussion of the chart?

I have used finasteride for over 13 years (started in May of 98) and there are many others on here who have used it for 10+ years who can say its hasn't lost its effectiveness. I still have close to 90% of my hair since my late teens/early twenties and have seen greater improvements after adding minoxidil and nizoral still after 3 years.

I'm happy that you have seen long term success with Finasteride, but like I said earlier everyone is different. You have to also remember that the hair count represents the Average Change from Baseline. While you and others have long term succuess there have been other reports on these forums where they have reported a loss of effectiveness in the drug and are now looking for something else. Another chart study that confirms this:
http://www.regrowshair.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/mean_change_crossover_data_chart.gif

My only concern with the chart is why would anyone use minoxidil without using an anti-androgen?

I don't understand your concern with the chart? Are you talking about the minoxidil line? That is just to show how effective minoxidil by itself is on the hair count.

 

[Bryan]

My only concern with the chart is why would anyone use minoxidil without using an anti-androgen?

As has already been explained to you earlier in this thread, nobody should use topical minoxidil alone. The purpose of the fellow who made that chart was simply to demonstrate clearly to people what happens if that's ALL that you use (ninoxidil); to actually slow or stop the further progression of baldness over a long period pf time, you need to use other things along with it (5a-reductase inhibitors, antiandrogens, SODs, etc.).

 

[Rashan]

I'm happy that you have seen long term success with Finasteride, but like I said earlier everyone is different. You have to also remember that the hair count represents the Average Change from Baseline. While you and others have long term succuess there have been other reports on these forums where they have reported a loss of effectiveness in the drug and are now looking for something else. Another chart study that confirms this:

While I do agree with you that the consenses is there is a "loss of effectiveness" in the drug from a general standpoint, you have to consider all the facts here. The two major factors relative to hair loss are an increase in DHT production and androgen receptor activation. Unfortunately, there aren't enough clinical studies to show how retalitve anti-androgens are to hair growth stimulation. This is why I believe this "loss of effectiveness" can sometimes be attributed to a steady lack of degeneration of androgen receptors.

 

[jksl]

What do you guys think the "stop finasteride" line looks like?

Probably the same as the "stop minoxidil" line. Is anyone gonna argue against that?

 

[jksl]

What do you guys think the "stop finasteride" line looks like?

Probably the same as the "stop minoxidil" line. Is anyone gonna argue against that?

I guess, not.

 

[zb00st]

I can only say Bryan is the guy here who had explained things perfectly clear. Based on my experience everything is exactly as mentioned by him.
When I started using minoxidil 3 years ago, I was already on finasteride 5 months with not much noticable effect. Started minoxidil, by the 6 month my head was FULL of hair. I couldn't believe it. No notice of hairloss anywhere. But with the time going after that it gradually started to thin in the problem spots (front for me) in the baseline pattern. I'm still on the Big 3, and I'm better than baseline but I will never be as good as I was 5-6 months after I added minoxidil. I tried to experiment with other stuff, stoped finasteride for a while, stopped minoxidil for a while, restarted, did everything just to bring back that effect, when I realized I just can't it's how it is.
Now I'm still on the big 3, just added retin-a.