Retinoic Acid Question

[Better Off Dead]

Hey, I had heard of people adding retinoic acid 0.025 or 0.050 to their minoxidil. I was wanting to know about how much you all have been putting in?

I am thinking about buying Dr Lee's Xandrox 15% Plus and splitting it in half along with Standardized Liquid Saw Palmetto and Retin-A.

Something along these lines:
30ml of Xandrox 15% Plus (making it 7.5% | 0.50mg/ml finasteride | 2.5% AA)
15ml of Standardized Liquid Saw Palmetto (0.25mg/ml beta sitestorel)
15ml of Retin-A (I dunno if this is to much, but I am thinking of using 0.050)

and I might throw in a L-Lysine 500mg capsule since I saw a study that said it helps minoxidil and finasteride to work more efficiently. Don't know if it's actually true though, but I've seen a few minoxidil brands with L-Lysine in it, so it must be a stable component to add.

I had thought of throwing in some DMSO, as I have no adverse reaction to it so whatever, but I am not sure at what strength percentage wise DMSO has to be hit the bloodstream.

Opinions?

I had posted this on another hairloss forum, but thus far have received no response, and I have been meaning to make a account here forever. So two birds, one stone. :whistle:

 

[Bryan]

Hey, I had heard of people adding retinoic acid 0.025 or 0.050 to their minoxidil. I was wanting to know about how much you all have been putting in?

I don't think it's a good idea to add Retin-A to minoxidil. Drs. Price and Shapiro once made a claim in a medical journal article that minoxidil and Retin-A supposedly aren't "stable" when mixed together in the same solution. Now, they didn't bother to include a reference in support of that claim, and I haven't seen it in any other scientific or medical literature; but I figure, why not play it safe and not mix them together?

Another reason not to mix them together is that out of all the common substances that are used to fight balding, Retin-A is probably the one that causes the most serious irritation, if used excessively. If you mix it with minoxidil, you sort of "lock-in" the Retin-A dose, and you can't easily change it without also changing the minoxidil dose. I strongly recommend that you use minoxidil and Retin-A separately (notice the second line of my signature file! ). That way, you can titrate the Retin-A dose up or down as necessary, without simultaneously affecting the minoxidil dose.

and I might throw in a L-Lysine 500mg capsule since I saw a study that said it helps minoxidil and finasteride to work more efficiently. Don't know if it's actually true though, but I've seen a few minoxidil brands with L-Lysine in it, so it must be a stable component to add.

There is not so much as a shred of evidence in the medical or scientific literature that lysine helps minoxidil or finasteride. It's just a claim made on a stupid Web site, in a cynical effort to make money. Don't believe it.

 

[pproctor]

I don't think it's a good idea to add Retin-A to minoxidil. Drs. Price and Shapiro once made a claim in a medical journal article that minoxidil and Retin-A supposedly aren't "stable" when mixed together in the same solution. Now, they didn't bother to include a reference in support of that claim, and I haven't seen it in any other scientific or medical literature; but I figure, why not play it safe and not mix them together?
.

L'Oreal has a patent on the use of Retin-A separately from minoxidil. They claim it works a lot better. This may be where Price and Shapiro got their information from. Allegedly, minoxidil fairly quickly destroys Retina-A in solution.

This likely explains the early controversy among dermatologists (including myself) about whether Retin-A helps at all. On rexamination, the early studies were done with low concentration (0.2%) minoxidil solutions made up freshly every few weeks.

Under these conditions, Retin-A breakdown was probably slow enough and the formulations fresh enough that patients got some benefit. But when used with 10-fold higher 2% or greater minoxidil solutions, breakdown is likely pretty quick, at least in the absence of stabilizing agents.

Peter H Proctor, PhD,MD

Here is the abstract from the L'Oreal patent. BTW, this patent is still current. So it is for academic interest only.

-------------------------------------
United States Patent 5,567,702
Grollier October 22, 1996

Combination of pyrimidine derivatives and retinoids, as separate components, for inducing and stimulating hair growth and reducing its loss

Abstract
Combination of pyrimidine derivatives and retinoids, as separate components, for inducing and stimulating hair growth and reducing its loss. Combination designed to induce and stimulate hair growth and reduce its loss, characterized in that it comprises in separated form: a) a component (A) containing at least one retinoid in a physiologically acceptable medium, and b) a component (B) containing at least one pyrimidine derivative in a physiologically acceptable medium.

 

[Better Off Dead]

So with 2% retin-a was stable, but at higher percents it can make it unstable? Hmmm, I suppose I could just apply it with a applicator before I use minoxidil.

What about DMSO, I heard about OZ Brew. Did that ever show any promise? I ask only because DMSO has no negative affect on me. I add about 15ml to my Super Zix II.

 

[Bryan]

So with 2% retin-a was stable, but at higher percents it can make it unstable?

Re-read what Dr. Proctor said.