Regimen Suggestions -- Open to anything

[brodieman04]

I'm 22 years old, been (noticeably) diffuse thinning for about two years. I first noticed my thinning when I contracted pneumonia that, due to a misdiagnosis, plagued me for 10 weeks before I finally saw a doctor who knew what he was talking about. At first I thought that my hair loss might have been induced by the shock and stress to my system, but it's continued progression far past my renewed good health debunked that theory. Also, my grandfather on my mom's side had significant hairloss, and my brother, 6 years older than me, was a diffuse thinner who is now completely bald up top.

I immediately went on Propecia, which I took for 10 months, but quit because I didn't see any improvement, I continued to shed just as before, and, perhaps most startling, I experienced significant "brain fog" -- I found it difficult to concentrate, my memory suffered, I'd read paragraphs and then realize I had retained nothing, etc. These symptoms all appeared shortly after taking the drug, and tapered off when I ceased treatment.

After getting off propecia my hairloss predictably continued, until I was forced to shave my head because the thinning was so noticeable. About two months ago I decided to go on propecia again, this time using Minoxidil as well, but the "brain fog" symptoms reappeared just as before.

I've recently been reading about the effect of DHT on the brain, and these studies seem to provide a possible explanation for my adverse reaction to propecia. So now I'm left wondering what's next.

Assuming I continue to use Minoxidil, what else can I add to my regimen that can possibly be as effective as Propecia? Dutasteride is out of the question, as the symptoms I experience on Propecia would probably increase exponentially. I'm not an impatient person, and I'm willing to give treatments a year or more to see results, provided there is sound science behind them, but prescription treatments would be difficult for me to obtain due to the fact that I am set to embark shortly on a year-long adventure around the world.



TOO LONG DIDN'T READ VERSION:

Can't take propecia/dutasteride. Need advice on what to take next for regrowth/maintenance. Already using minoxidil.

Things I'm considering - Prox-N, Nano Shampoo, ???

 

[Thinning]

If you dont take propecia or dutasteride you will go bald in a few years. People who start balding in their early 20s have a huge uphill battle to maintain their hair, and without a strong anti-dht regimen no topical will keep it around for long.

Sorry, but its the truth.

 

[ceee]

What a helpful post!

 

[Bertie]

The best known, most respected poster on this and other hair loss sites does in fact believe that effective, all-topical treatment plans do exist. Three products he likes are Proxiphen, Revivogen, and (topical) Spironolactone. The first is a kitchen sink of agents, the second has fatty acids which may inhibit the formation of DHT by 5AR, and the latter may block DHT and another androgens from binding in the places in the hair folicle where they do damage.

On the other hand, it must be said that while spironolactone is moderately popular in these parts, Proxiphen and Revivogen do not have very widespread support. And they are expensive (which might be part of the reason for their comparative unpopularity. Scientific support for these agents in human trials is of course low, as is the case for anything except minoxidil and finasteride (and duteseride via a small logical leap from finasterdie).

Probably the most recommended topicals after minoxidil are Nizoral shampoo, spironolactone, and Folligen/Tricomin (pick one).

If you weren't about to go travelling, you might have a look at the wild, wierd world of the natural hair loss plans. But those that (might) work involve quite a few pills (think big GNC size vitamin jars). And in so far as natural plans have a DHT effect, you might end up with the same type of sides as on finasteride. Among the most popular supplements are MSM, Green Tea extract, Flax Lignans, Biotin, fish oil, Beta Sistosterol and probably a dozen others I'm forgetting.

One more option -- 0.2mg Finasteride a day (cut the pill into fifths). If you look around you can find a few testimonials from people who had side effects on the regular dose but none at this one, a dose which may still work for your hair.

 

[Thinning]

What a joke, that guy will go bald in 5 years on that topical only regimen and everyone knows it.

At least I had the balls to tell him the truth, you go get his hopes up with a lie to get him to think more of you.

Go ahead and try that crap kid, and in a year when your hair is even worse come back here and tell everyone.

 

[Thinning]

Look here, 2 posts up...

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions ... hp?t=29945

Guy says he made a bad mistake for not running finasteride.

Dont lie to people and say its not necessary, especially a 22 year old with agressive male pattern baldness.

 

[brodieman04]

What a joke, that guy will go bald in 5 years on that topical only regimen and everyone knows it.

At least I had the balls to tell him the truth, you go get his hopes up with a lie to get him to think more of you.

Go ahead and try that crap kid, and in a year when your hair is even worse come back here and tell everyone.

There's no need to be condescending. I asked for regimen suggestions given that I can no longer taken propecia. It isn't that I doubt it's efficacy -- the sides I'm experiencing are a testament to it -- it's that I don't want my hair at the expense of my mind.

I understand that, at this point in time, the general consensus is that DHT blockers (or whatever the correct terminology may be) are the most effective treatment. I one of the unlucky people who experiences adverse sides on propecia, and therefore can't use it. I'm asking for suggestions on what else I should try in light of my situation. There's no need to be a jerk about it.

One thing I hadn't asked that I meant to -- if I do experience these sides on propecia, would I just experience them even more so on dutasteride?

 

[ceee]

You might have to draw him a picture to help him understand.

 

[Harie]

Since you haven't tried dutasteride, I say give it a go. There are many stories of people that couldn't tolerate finasteride due to brain fog, no libido etc, but could use dutasteride every day without problems.

To start, you could use dutasteride 2x/week to see if you experience brain fog. I don't think that buying 100 generic dutasteride capsules would be too much financial strain.

 

[IBM]

a

 

[brodieman04]

I one of the unlucky people who experiences adverse sides on propecia, and therefore can't use it.

What side effects you had with finasteride?

Terrible brain fog. Inability to concentrate, focus, and so forth. Getting song lyrics repeatedly stuck in my head, feeling like I have ADHD all the time. Loss of motivation, mild depression. These symptoms all appeared shortly after I went on the drug, and tapered off when I quit. They then reappeared recently when I went back on the drug.

I don't understand how people could have symtpoms on finasteride, but not on dutasteride? Also, I recently read a study about how finasteride and dutasteride lower allopregnenolone levels in the brain, which results in a neurodegeneration over time similar to that in Alzheimers patients.

 

[NYVic20]

I also read about that in an article and it said that only type 1 5ar enzyme is present in the brain which in theory shouldn't be a problem for finasteride users. Although; Im not sure why people are experiencing these probems if that was the case.

 

[NYVic20]

Here's the link I found it at http://www.bio.net/bionet/mm/neur-sci/2004-August/058929.html I don't know how this would fare for Dutas users in the long run.

 

[Harie]

I one of the unlucky people who experiences adverse sides on propecia, and therefore can't use it.

What side effects you had with finasteride?

I don't understand how people could have symtpoms on finasteride, but not on dutasteride? Also, I recently read a study about how finasteride and dutasteride lower allopregnenolone levels in the brain, which results in a neurodegeneration over time similar to that in Alzheimers patients.

It's true. There are a few people that have posted the inability to take finasteride, but handled dutasteride just fine. If you only take dutasteride 2 or 3x a week, it basically leaves 5ar1 alone. I think the article you are in reference to was talking about taking dutasteride 7x/week which inhibits something like 50% of 5ar1.

I still say you should try dutasteride but only use 2x a week, maybe 3x a week.

 

[Harie]

NYVic20 - good find. Best quote IMO -

"If 5AR inhibitors do pose long term risks and you absolutely have to
take them, it may be possible to lessen the neurological damage with
things like acetyl-l-carnitine, minocycline, l-theanine, taurine,
curcumin, green tea (EGCG), CoQ10, nicotinamide/niacinamide, creatine,
ketogenic diets, so on and so forth (each of which carries with it its
own complicating factors)."

That's what I've been saying all along. And it's why I take so many herbs, Omega 3/6/9 & vitamins. Believe me, if there were something else besides finasteride or dutasteride that worked, I'd use it. Since finasteride/dutasteride are the best chances we have currently, that has a price within reach for most people, *cough RU cough*, my goal is to lessen any potential damage long term use of finasteride/dutasteride will cause.

 

[IBM]

a

 

[docj077]

I also read about that in an article and it said that only type 1 5ar enzyme is present in the brain which in theory shouldn't be a problem for finasteride users. Although; Im not sure why people are experiencing these probems if that was the case.

It doesn't matter which 5AR enzyme it is and that it's located in the brain. Inhibing it anywhere in the body will cause a reduction of the neuroactive steroid allopregnanolone systemwide. Steroid hormones can cross the blood brain barrier, so even though you might not do anything in the brain through 5AR type II inhibition with propecia, you're still removing the supply of neuroactive steroids in the periphery, which is where the brain gets them in the first place, since they have to move across the blood brain barrier from the general circulation.

 

[docj077]

NYVic20 - good find. Best quote IMO -

"If 5AR inhibitors do pose long term risks and you absolutely have to
take them, it may be possible to lessen the neurological damage with
things like acetyl-l-carnitine, minocycline, l-theanine, taurine,
curcumin, green tea (EGCG), CoQ10, nicotinamide/niacinamide, creatine,
ketogenic diets, so on and so forth (each of which carries with it its
own complicating factors)."

That's what I've been saying all along. And it's why I take so many herbs, Omega 3/6/9 & vitamins. Believe me, if there were something else besides finasteride or dutasteride that worked, I'd use it. Since finasteride/dutasteride are the best chances we have currently, that has a price within reach for most people, *cough RU cough*, my goal is to lessen any potential damage long term use of finasteride/dutasteride will cause.

Curcumin is listed there, because it increases serotonin, dopamine and norepinephrine levels in the brain...at least in vivo in mice. It basically acts like an antidepressant.

- Eur J Pharmacol. 2005 Jul 25;518(1):40-6. -- The effects of curcumin on depressive-like behaviors in mice. -- Xu Y, Ku BS, Yao HY, Lin YH, Ma X, Zhang YH, Li XJ.

 

[CCS]

haire,

how do we know 5ar inhibitors damage the brain?

 

[Harie]

haire,

how do we know 5ar inhibitors damage the brain?

We don't know that for sure yet. The entire rational behind what I take is to lessen or completely eliminate any sides from finasteride, short and long term. Not that I ever thought I'd get sides, but an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

If you read my regemin, there are specific reasons what I take is there.