Reading Dr. Lee's comments, I wonder why finasteride at all ?

[hairhaircomeagain]

Drl Lee says

"Although Finasteride may lower the serum level of DHT by 60-80%., the DHT reduction at the actual follicle is far less than 60%-80% because the predominant enzyme that converts testosterone to DHT in the scalp is type 1, 5-alpha reductase, which is not affected by finasteride.
On the other hand, the 5% concentration of azelaic acid in Xandrox will inhibit virtually all synthesis of DHT in the scalp where applied. It does this by inhibiting the synthesis of testosterone into DHT of both type 1 and type 2, 5-alpha reductase enzymes. The extra reduction of DHT via azelaic acid helps many patients grow hair who would not otherwise be able to do so. "

So our main aim is not to reduce DHT, but to reduce DHT at the scalp. If XANDROX does exactly that, why have finasteride at all ? I am sure people on the Forum and everyone using finasteride are not fools to spend money on finasteride if Xandrox would have done the trick. Then, Is Dr. Lee making a false claim or I am reading something wrong ? Must be the later ?

Inputs guys ?

 

[Goingat20]

I think dr lee is getting a bit carried away with those statements on azelic acid, it hasnt got much of a strong back ground.

 

[Bryan]

Dr. Lee has a vivid imagination!

Bryan

 

[socks]

I think I've heard that reducing DHT in the scalp doesn't matter because it is in the hair follicles -- is that correct?

Ding ding ding ding ding!!!

By God, he's got it!

 

[Thinning]

Also, how does topical spironolactone work in reference to that?

It probably doesent. I may just have an anti-inflammitory effect. I know when I put cortisone lotion on my scalp for a month to combat some irritation, my hair look a hell of a lot better.

 

[Bryan]

I think I've heard that reducing DHT in the scalp doesn't matter because it is in the hair follicles -- is that correct?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that.

Bryan

 

[Rage]

I think he is suggesting that hair does not reside on the scalp..

 

[socks]

:roll:

Type I 5 alpha-reductase is predominant in the sebaceous glands of most regions of skin, including scalp and liver.

Next

The Type II 5 alpha-reductase isozyme is primarily found in prostate, seminal vesicles, epididymides and hair follicles as well as liver, and is responsible for two-thirds of circulating DHT.

I didnt have a problem understanding where scribe99 was coming from. What technicality did he fail to specify?

 

[michael barry]

Knowing what I do now, I believe topical green tea extract that is high in polyphenols would be a great addition to propecia. It inhibits type one.


If you guys think about it, you have testosterone circulating in the scalp (and other tissues all over the bod). The type two alpha five reductase enzyme located in the hair follicle is bound chemically by propecia, but the testoserone just floats on when it cant bind with it............more of it (free testosterone) almost inevitably finds its way into the sebaceous glands and sebocytes of the skin where it WILL find type one alpha five reductase availble to convert the free T to DHT. The extra free T available because of propecia will also up the production of the sebaceous glands to make more sebum, which has DHT molecules in it, that can be reabsorbed back into the scalp. DHT is DHT.


As Bryan has posted before, azelaic acid doesnt seem to effect sebaceous gland production in tests on hamster flank organs. It might inhibit alpha five in a test tube, but it doesnt seem to work on type one at all in the body. I'd keep that in mind. If Lee felt that it POSITIVELY does, he can buy some syrian hamsters pretty cheap, and run a test, and post photos of the results. Or come to think of it, any of you guys wanting to get off Propecia, buy some azelaic acid, and put it on your forearm or wrists and see if it decreases you body hair growth vs. the other arm in a couple of months. Revivogen passed this test with me. Azelaic acid should if it really works ( I bet it doesnt though )

 

[Bryan]

I thought I remembed reading something you wrote in reference to azelic acid -- saying that reducing DHT in the scalp doesn't matter. Does that ring a bell?

What bothers me about what you said is that whether or not reducing DHT "in the scalp" helps hairloss depends mostly on how you go about doing that.

If you take a 5a-reductase type 1 inhibitor, you will reduce DHT "in the scalp". If you take a 5a-reductase type 2 inhibitor, you will reduce DHT "in the scalp". But doing it the first way probably won't have any noticeable effect on balding, but the second way will. So it's rather pointless to talk about reducing DHT "in the scalp" without specifying HOW you do it.

I'm also wondering how topical spironolactone works in that regard. I think it antagonizes the receptor cites of the hair follices ... Therefore it would stand a chance at being effective.

Sure. Topical spironolactone should be effective to some extent. It's already been successfully tested in some small studies. It's an androgen receptor blocker (antiandrogen).

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

The extra free T available because of propecia will also up the production of the sebaceous glands to make more sebum, which has DHT molecules in it, that can be reabsorbed back into the scalp. DHT is DHT.

That's the general theory floating around, but I have three serious problems with it:

1) Imperato-McGinley (the researcher who did the early testing on the pseudohermaphrodites in the Dominican Republic) tested finasteride users, and found no change in sebum production before-and-after using the drug.

2) Kligman found in an early study that giving as much as 300 mg of methyl testosterone every day to healthy male subjects had no effect on their sebum production.

3) It seems very unlikely to me that the DHT in sebum ever makes its way back into hair follicles, anyway, so I can't believe that increased sebum (even if it DID occur) would have any real effect on hair follicles.

Or come to think of it, any of you guys wanting to get off Propecia, buy some azelaic acid, and put it on your forearm or wrists and see if it decreases you body hair growth vs. the other arm in a couple of months. Revivogen passed this test with me. Azelaic acid should if it really works ( I bet it doesnt though )

Michael, I'd be fascinated to hear all the details of that test you did with Revivogen. Can you describe to me exactly what you did?

Bryan

 

[VWdude]

What about the people who are seeing results on finasteride alone.... Good one Lee.

 

[Bryan]

Just out of curiousity, why isn't azelic acid effective?

Dunno for sure. Maybe it just doesn't penetrate well into the hair follicles or sebaceous glands for some reason when you apply it topically. Or maybe it's some other reason entirely.

It claims to reduce like 98% of DHT in the scalp ...

Dr. Lee makes that claim. Nobody else does! :wink:

Assuming for a second that claim is true, would that even be an effective way of combatting hairloss?

Sure. Sounds like a very good thing, IF it were true!

The reason I ask is because I thought I remembered you writing something to the contrary.

I've mainly questioned the "98%" claim itself. I think we can pretty well rule that out. All the evidence is against it.

Bryan

 

[Aplunk1]

Thank you, Bryan, for your advice.

I am just going to stick with minoxidil and avoid the extra $13 for the Xandrox.

 

[michael barry]

Bryan

With the revivogen...............I put it on my right wrist (about where you'd wear a watch) for a couple of months, and put crinagen on my left. Crinagen basically did nothing except make the skin red and peel a little bit. No effect on the hair. The revivogen however, did decrease the wrist hair on the right. Hair was thinner, shorter, and lighter. I keep in mind that revivogen and crinagen both have proanthocyandrins in them also. Revivogen was the clear winner between the two.

If I get around to it (life is busy as all get out man), trying sprio with a couple of applications a day, perhaps a little fluridil, and maybe even topical green tea extract at various places on one forearm vs. the other for comparison (my arms are basically the same in hairyness) to see what works and how well anti-androgenically.

On the green tea................I believe DHT is DHT......and even if not reabsorbed back into the body, somehow someway inhibiting type one must be the reason that Dutasteride outperforms propecia by so much. Would like to see.

 

[Bryan]

Bryan

With the revivogen...............I put it on my right wrist (about where you'd wear a watch) for a couple of months...

How much and over how big an area? And how often?

On the green tea................I believe DHT is DHT......and even if not reabsorbed back into the body, somehow someway inhibiting type one must be the reason that Dutasteride outperforms propecia by so much.

I think the more important effect is that dutasteride inhibits the type 2 enzyme MORE COMPLETELY than finasteride.

Bryan

 

[michael barry]

Bryan,
The size of the area was about the size of what your wrsit watch would occupy (bout' an inch wide and a couple across). The frequency was once a day. The amount was.......enough to cover all of that....two or three drops massaged all over that area. Revivogen has an unpleasant smell Im afraid.



Your comment on dutasteride is something I have considered. It supposedly gets 98 of type 2 and propecia only gets 90% according to the makers of each. So, do you think type 1 DHT has A). alot to do with baldness B) something to do with baldness or C) very little to do with baldness?

 

[DonaldAnderson]

I think he exaggerated...yeah.

 

[Bryan]

Your comment on dutasteride is something I have considered. It supposedly gets 98 of type 2 and propecia only gets 90% according to the makers of each. So, do you think type 1 DHT has A). alot to do with baldness B) something to do with baldness or C) very little to do with baldness?

I think it has only a little to do with baldness. Even though the 5a-reductase type 2 enzyme is more closely associated with balding than the type 1 enzyme, nevertheless any therapy that reduces even serum DHT will have _some_ benefit, because even serum DHT has at least a small endocrine effect. However, my own guess is that going from an 85%-90% inhibition of the type 2 enzyme (finasteride) to a 98%-99% inhibition (dutasteride) is probably more significant than going from a 0% inhibition (finasteride) to a 50%-60% inhibition (dutasteride) of the type 1 enzyme. But they definitely both help to some degree, of course.

Bryan

 

[triton2]

1) Imperato-McGinley (the researcher who did the early testing on the pseudohermaphrodites in the Dominican Republic) tested finasteride users, and found no change in sebum production before-and-after using the drug.

2) Kligman found in an early study that giving as much as 300 mg of methyl testosterone every day to healthy male subjects had no effect on their sebum production.

And let's not forget that other troublesome detail: not only is there no proof or even evidence that topical azelaic acid works as a 5a-reductase inhibitor in living animals, there is actually some circumstantial evidence that it does NOT do that. That would be the studies in both humans and animals showing that topical azelaic acid had no effect on the production of sebum (if DHT were being reduced, one would expect sebum to be reduced, because sebaceous glands are extremely sensitive to androgens).

Aren't these two statements in conflict with each other? If finasteride failed to change sebum production, that might mean that the fact that azelaic acid doesn't change it either doesn't mean that it's an ineffective antiandrogen... it's been proven that finasteride is effective at reducing dht levels and yet sebum production doesn't change, then perhaps sebaceous glands are not that sensitive to androgens, aren't they? Am I missing something?