Rambling theory of why 5-AR therapy benefit limited

[Bryan]

… This "local" androgen activity (testosterone and DHT levels at the level of the follicle itself) has not been directly or acccurately measured.

Uh, yes it has! Try this on for size: "Regulation of Human Hair Growth by Steroid Hormones. I. Testosterone Metabolism in Isolated Hairs", Schweikert and Wilson, J Clin Endocrinol Metab 38: 811, 1974. Immediately following that study is another similar one by the same authors: "Regulation of Human Hair Growth by Steroid Hormones. II. Androstenedione Metabolism in Isolated Hairs".

They did find a higher level of 5a-reductase activity and higher levels of DHT in the hair follicles of balding men, compared to those of non-balding men. I don't want to type-out the entire abstracts of those studies, but here's a single sentence from the abstract of the first one: "In general a higher formation of 5a-reduced metabolites and 17-ketosteroid metabolites was observed at all sites of the scalp of bald men as compared to hair obtained from the corresponding sites of women and nonbalding men, and a significantly higher rate of metabolism was found at the frontal area of the bald men..."

I also failled looking for a unequivocal experiment in order to determinate the amount of androgens in scalp in prepubertal. Then, how is possible bet a “fortuneâ€￾ in the current theory??

As you can see even by these early studies from 1974, the standard, accepted theory of hairloss is OVERWHELMINGLY supported by all the available evidence.

Acording to my own theory androgens must exist in scalp hairs before puberty. If I am wrong please, anyone could enligthen me?

Armando, I have REPEATEDLY tried to enlighten you! :wink: I've pointed out to you OVER AND OVER AND OVER that scalp hair thrives and flourishes in the TOTAL ABSENCE of any androgens! Why do I have to keep repeating myself?? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Bryan

 

[Boru]

Is DHT converted from testosterone mainly in the testes or the adrenal glands, or both, or variable? DHT can only reach the follicles through the bloodstream, in conjuction with oxygen of course.

You must be a newbie, Boru! :wink: DHT is produced in several locations around the body, including the testes, prostate, liver, kidney, brain (probably), sebaceous glands, and HAIR FOLLICLES. That's the main cause of balding: the follicular conversion of testosterone to DHT. To say that DHT can ONLY reach follicles through the bloodstream shows that you've got a lot to learn about hairloss theory. BTW, I'm not trying to be mean when I say that, I'm just flabbergasted that you'd say what you did, after all the technical discussions we've had on these hairloss sites...

Yes I am a newbie, and I appreciate your input, it refocuses me. There is alot of guesswork going on, guessing being the starting point of all science.
There is therefore room for respectable disagreements and false starts, but I believe that we will get there in the end.

The important thing is that alot my hair is regrowing after 20 years of full male pattern baldness. I am not naturally scientifically minded, so in trying to pass on the fruits of my success to others I have to admit that I am new to some challenging concepts. I only have a degree in Art and Design.

I did not read anywhere that DHT is converted in the follicle. Sorry 'bout that.

I assume that this is a protein derived hormone, as it binds to receptors on the outside of the cell membrane, unlike steroid and tyrosine hormones, which pass inside the cell.

Wrong again. Androgen receptors are mobile receptors in the cytoplasm of the cell.

All the diagrams I have seen show the receptors on the surface of the hair root, so I assumed are on the outside of the cell. I am just asking questions, not stating facts. Therefore, is DHT a tyrosine or a steroid hormone?

Much more detail is needed on the origins and activity of DHT, how does it work, how do we stop it working so effectively? My routine is certainly working a treat, but I can't fully explain it, YET!

Keep reading these sites. Or should I say, START reading these sites?? :wink:

I have read many intelligent posts, and debates arising from disputed points. It can be quite confusing. We are bound to be at different stages of learning in a forum like this. I will now try to find an anatomical reference book with magnified pictures of the follicle, so I can look into the available knowledge on receptors. Do you know of one?

Bryan

 

[Armando Jose]

Hi Bryan;
I thank you you effort with me. But, the studies cited from 1974 are with balding people, don't in prepubertal. Don't say anything new, balding people are afected during a certain time with the process and can be modified his genetic expresion.

I would like very much reading any study regarding this aspect: Is there androgens in scalp hairs before puberty?

Thanks again Bryan

Armando

 

[Chujgcha]

....

 

[Bryan]

All the diagrams I have seen show the receptors on the surface of the hair root, so I assumed are on the outside of the cell. I am just asking questions, not stating facts. Therefore, is DHT a tyrosine or a steroid hormone?

DHT results from a simple modification of the testosterone molecule. They (and other androgens) are steroid hormones.

I have read many intelligent posts, and debates arising from disputed points. It can be quite confusing. We are bound to be at different stages of learning in a forum like this. I will now try to find an anatomical reference book with magnified pictures of the follicle, so I can look into the available knowledge on receptors. Do you know of one?

You should be able to get a quick overview of that area of physiology with a simple Google search.

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

Hi Bryan;
I thank you you effort with me. But, the studies cited from 1974 are with balding people, don't in prepubertal.

They were with balding and NON-BALDING men, and also women.

I would like very much reading any study regarding this aspect: Is there androgens in scalp hairs before puberty?

I don't know of any such studies. But if non-balding men (and also women) have significantly less androgens in their scalps than balding men, don't you think it's a VERY safe bet that children ALSO have lower levels? :wink:

Bryan

 

[stax]

Mabye we always have the same number of androgen receptors no matter what age and when puberty hits for some reason our follicles become sensative to the androgens. Nobody will the full answer for a while im guessing.

 

[Boru]

As a beginner who had some misconceptions, I thank Bryan for sending me back to the drawing board, because I chanced on a very informative site with comprehensive references to male androgenetic alopecia and DHT etc. On first reading, it confirms alot of what Bryan is stating. You might have seen this, but just in case go to http://www.androbalance.co.uk and look up chapter 18 MALE ANDROGENETIC ALOPECIA - Rodney D. Sinclair, M.D., and Ken Ee Thai (Reviewed November 20 2004).
You can download or print this one.
I spoke to a scientist at Androbalance about DHT test kits. They used to provide this service but found there was not a big demand. The company will be reviewing its product range in September. I do not know if there are many other companies which provide DHT tests, so this will be my next search.
If the ratio of T to DHT should, I quote, be 10-1, finasteride may help to regulate the DHT, but we need to test our levels to achieve the optimum.
There are signs of excess suppression of DHT, eg. gyno in some men.
I have just started on my learning curve. I have stumbled on my combination treatment for male pattern baldness, with big gaps in my scientific knowledge. I aim to improve my knowledge so I can try to explain why my method is able to wake up scalp hairs that have been dormant for 20 years.
Boru