Quick Question - Dht Inhibition. Not Important:)

[SausageDawg]

Can anyone tell me why on average we only see a positive/noticeable result on finasteride when we inhibit 30-40% of our scalp DHT? Surely your hair would benefit from values as low as 20% but that doesnt seem to hold truth anecdotally. Also wouldnt starting at the lowest possible dose reduce the chance of our bodies becoming desensitised to the drug?

 

[baba_yaga]

finasteride does not inhibit 60-70% of scalp DHT, only around 20-30% and duta around 51% if i remember correctly.

 

[Throwaway94]

It's serum DHT that's 60-70% inhibited by finasteride rather than scalp DHT. What's up in the air is how much serum DHT and scalp DHT respectively contribute to hair loss.

 

[SausageDawg]

Yeah I actually did know that.. I must of overlooked that when sending it! So surely it proves serum dht is what's important though right? Because it would make sense that limiting something by 60/70% could make a noticeable difference but the fact it only limits your scalp dht by maybe only half that amount yet can halt baldness and even encourage regrowth in some just doesnt make much sense. Hope I'm making SOME sense!!

 

[Throwaway94]

Yeah I actually did know that.. I must of overlooked that when sending it! So surely it proves serum dht is what's important though right? Because it would make sense that limiting something by 60/70% could make a noticeable difference but the fact it only limits your scalp dht by maybe only half that amount yet can halt baldness and even encourage regrowth in some just doesnt make much sense. Hope I'm making SOME sense!!

Not really? For all we know it's the 30% reduction in the scalp that's more important and the 70% in serum is negligible. There's no real reasoning to believe that the serum value is more important and the bigger number could be misleading.

 

[Oriol]

It's the amount of DHT reduction in the scalp/dermal papillae thats more important. Serum DHT not so much.

 

[sonictemples]

If serum DHT was why finasteride worked why would Polichem exist?

 

[Throwaway94]

If serum DHT was why finasteride worked why would Polichem exist?

Because we still don't have a definitive answer on how well topical finasteride works and how much of it goes systemic (it definitely does) and therefore how much of the effect is due to the systemic decrease and the scalp decrease.

 

[SausageDawg]

Not really? For all we know it's the 30% reduction in the scalp that's more important and the 70% in serum is negligible. There's no real reasoning to believe that the serum value is more important and the bigger number could be misleading.

Personally a 30% reduction doesnt seem like its enough to halt the balding process (which it does seem to do in some men!) Whereas inhibiting 70% makes a lot more sense that it would actually make a statistical and noticeable difference.. just my opinion ofc so no real merit to it. My point is if reducing scalp dht by 30% is enough to give even regrowth in some people then surely just 10% would be beneficial to others? How much scalp dht did 0.05g inhibit?

 

[Throwaway94]

Personally a 30% reduction doesnt seem like its enough to halt the balding process (which it does seem to do in some men!) Whereas inhibiting 70% makes a lot more sense that it would actually make a statistical and noticeable difference.. just my opinion ofc so no real merit to it. My point is if reducing scalp dht by 30% is enough to give even regrowth in some people then surely just 10% would be beneficial to others? How much scalp dht did 0.05g inhibit?

Look I get where you're coming from but it doesn't follow any real logic to suggest that the 70% is more important just because its a bigger number.

Yes you'd be right, perhaps some people with only mild loss can benefit from just a 10% reduction (technically everyone can but for some people it might actually keep them at or above baseline).

I assume you mean 0.05mg?

Consulting the literature... Actually we find that scalp DHT is inhibited by much more than 30% but this study looks suspicious for 0.05mg results.

 

[sonictemples]

Look I get where you're coming from but it doesn't follow any real logic to suggest that the 70% is more important just because its a bigger number.

Yes you'd be right, perhaps some people with only mild loss can benefit from just a 10% reduction (technically everyone can but for some people it might actually keep them at or above baseline).

I assume you mean 0.05mg?

Consulting the literature... Actually we find that scalp DHT is inhibited by much more than 30% but this study looks suspicious for 0.05mg results.

View attachment 144841 View attachment 144842

Placebo blocked 15%

 

[Throwaway94]

Placebo blocked 15%

That too. Weird study. Then again hormone tests like for DHT or estrogen are notoriously sh*t at low concentrations

 

[SausageDawg]

Look I get where you're coming from but it doesn't follow any real logic to suggest that the 70% is more important just because its a bigger number.

Yes you'd be right, perhaps some people with only mild loss can benefit from just a 10% reduction (technically everyone can but for some people it might actually keep them at or above baseline).

I assume you mean 0.05mg?

Consulting the literature... Actually we find that scalp DHT is inhibited by much more than 30% but this study looks suspicious for 0.05mg results.

View attachment 144841 View attachment 144842

I've never understood why its impossible to get a low dose finasteride, I'd actually be interested hearing how people would respond to doses like 0.05mg. To some degree less is surely better when it comes to sides, especially if its inhibiting a similar amount!

 

[sonictemples]

That is weird

I've never understood why its impossible to get a low dose finasteride, I'd actually be interested hearing how people would respond to doses like 0.05mg. To some degree less is surely better when it comes to sides, especially if its inhibiting a similar amount!

Try it and report to us

 

[SausageDawg]

That is weird

Try it and report to us

Gonna have too at some point.. havent really got a choice in the matter! Feel like trying a low dose finasteride with a low dose DIM supplement is the safest way to approach it.

 

[Throwaway94]

I've never understood why its impossible to get a low dose finasteride, I'd actually be interested hearing how people would respond to doses like 0.05mg. To some degree less is surely better when it comes to sides, especially if its inhibiting a similar amount!

Yeah the general consensus across all the studies I've seen is that 0.2mg is not significantly less effective than 1mg at inhibiting DHT in both the serum and scalp. First dose as 1mg then 0.2 daily every day or eod after that shouldn't be significantly less effective in theory.

It should also not come with less side effects unless the dose response curves for things like allopregnanolone are still relevant at the drop from 1mg to 0.2mg.

 

[NorwoodingMyWay]

Personally a 30% reduction doesnt seem like its enough to halt the balding process (which it does seem to do in some men!) Whereas inhibiting 70% makes a lot more sense that it would actually make a statistical and noticeable difference.. just my opinion ofc so no real merit to it. My point is if reducing scalp dht by 30% is enough to give even regrowth in some people then surely just 10% would be beneficial to others? How much scalp dht did 0.05g inhibit?

finasteride inhibits 30-40% of scalp DHT is beneficial because finasteride is a 5AR type 2 inhibitor, and this enzyme exists in smaller quantities in the scalp compared to 5AR type 1 (which exists in the sebaceous glands of every hair follicle), which, is why dutasteride inhibits 51% of scalp DHT, due to it being a (moderate) 5AR type 1 and (potent) type 2 inhibitor.




The major enzyme to focus on is 5AR type 2. Thus, even if you inhibit 100% of 5AR type 2 in the scalp, the DHT scalp concentration would only decrease by about 40%.

 

[SausageDawg]

Yeah the general consensus across all the studies I've seen is that 0.2mg is not significantly less effective than 1mg at inhibiting DHT in both the serum and scalp. First dose as 1mg then 0.2 daily every day or eod after that shouldn't be significantly less effective in theory.

It should also not come with less side effects unless the dose response curves for things like allopregnanolone are still relevant at the drop from 1mg to 0.2mg.

Precisely! Yeah I should state I dont think you can negate the sides just by dropping the dosage because hypothetically both doses achieve the same result but I think the sides are a little more complicated than just 'low dht'. Like you just said who knows how much 0.25mg affects neurostreoids compared to the standard 1mg! My point is I think its ideal to take as little of a drug as possible. The possible side effect that's bothering me is the instance of gyno.. I'm assured it's rare but I actually have seen so many anecdotal cases on this site alone.. it makes me think a DIM/very low-dose AI is needed alongside, but I've come to learn medical science isnt usually that easy lol

 

[SausageDawg]

finasteride inhibits 30-40% of scalp DHT is beneficial because finasteride is a 5AR type 2 inhibitor, and this enzyme exists in smaller quantities in the scalp compared to 5AR type 1 (which exists in the sebaceous glands of every hair follicle), which, is why dutasteride inhibits 51% of scalp DHT, due to it being a (moderate) 5AR type 1 and (potent) type 2 inhibitor.




The major enzyme to focus on is 5AR type 2. Thus, even if you inhibit 100% of 5AR type 2 in the scalp, the DHT scalp concentration would only decrease by about 40%.

Right okay now that makes a lot more sense! I think I forgot to factor in the difference of enzymes (type 1,2 & 3). So just to clarify on your very last statement.. would the remaining 60% of scalp dht concentration left behind be all type 1? And if so, do we know for certain that type 2 is doing all the damage? Very informative thanku

 

[Throwaway94]

Precisely! Yeah I should state I dont think you can negate the sides just by dropping the dosage because hypothetically both doses achieve the same result but I think the sides are a little more complicated than just 'low dht'. Like you just said who knows how much 0.25mg affects neurostreoids compared to the standard 1mg! My point is I think its ideal to take as little of a drug as possible. The possible side effect that's bothering me is the instance of gyno.. I'm assured it's rare but I actually have seen so many anecdotal cases on this site alone.. it makes me think a DIM/very low-dose AI is needed alongside, but I've come to learn medical science isnt usually that easy lol

What I said was actually pretty dumb since the same enzyme responsible for DHT is responsible for all the neurosteroids so they should be affected the same way, I'm just thinking that maybe there's a difference for the isoenzyme that finasteride also covers that might differ. Absolutely agree though the lowest dose is safer.