Questions on micro needling and bleeding changes through time

fugged

Established Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
33
Hi,

Ive noticed that when I began using a derminator 2, I bled fairly substantially. Now, even at around 2mm, I do much less, and the soreness afterwards is also less. If we are inducing angiogenesis, wouldn't we see bleeding easier through time?
 

JaneyElizabeth

Senior Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
1,586
It's amazing with scar tissue. I use 2.0 mm and I find it less taxing than the shorter ones. I did it to bleed a couple of times but really redness is enough if that. I probably do it for only five minutes in all, once or twice a week. I have too much hair now and too many meds to really judge it's effects on hair growth now but I think micro-needling basically works regardless as to how done, reasonably of course. Even no-pressure rolling serves to exfoliate and is good for the face and the scalp and helps with what I assume to be the itch from growing.

Balding scalp and scars have a lot in common. Both seem to be things that the body can fix but won't spend the resources to do so. Somehow the process of the small wounds trick the body into now saying, "okay, I am going to fix that scar or provide more bloodflow to this damaged dermal papillary.
 

JaneyElizabeth

Senior Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
1,586
Interesting. Not sure why.
AA's sort of trick the body as well into thinking higher E2 and lower T by occupying receptor sites while the T circles but can't find a parking space. The derma-rolling and hair plucking studies are also instructive in that follicles within a certain distance do engage in cross-talk. I think they found that larger hair plugs survive better than microplugs because one is moving an environment while the one or two hair plugs don't or can't communicate with the surround tissue. Most MtF's love cellulite while chicks hate it but micro-needling for cis-females might improve cellulite. I don't advise it because fatty thighs actually facilitate the stereotypical swaying female gait.
 

benjt2

Established Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
226
Hi,

Ive noticed that when I began using a derminator 2, I bled fairly substantially. Now, even at around 2mm, I do much less, and the soreness afterwards is also less. If we are inducing angiogenesis, wouldn't we see bleeding easier through time?
Follica claimed on multiple occasions that anything deeper than 1.5 mm bears the risk of scarring. Additionally, they claim neogenesis happens in the epidermis and from there follicles move downward. This is why their patent seems to favor needling depth of 0.8 to 1.2 mm.

That being said, maybe the reason is scarring when needling at that depth?
 

JaneyElizabeth

Senior Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
1,586
Follica claimed on multiple occasions that anything deeper than 1.5 mm bears the risk of scarring. Additionally, they claim neogenesis happens in the epidermis and from there follicles move downward. This is why their patent seems to favor needling depth of 0.8 to 1.2 mm.

That being said, maybe the reason is scarring when needling at that depth?
I am not very original as I get much of my opinions on perfecthairhealth.com. Rob recommended anything from .75mm to 2.5mm I believe as these were the sizes used in various studies. When I read that people are derma-penning for 30 minutes each time, I mean that sounds like an enormous amount of time. I basically do every direction all over the scalp a few times and it might take me two minutes total. I also do my face and neck gently. Here's why I am not worried about this. My major problem is no longer lack of coverage, it's eliminating massive scar tissue and before my hair got longer, I could visually see the scar tissue scab over and then be less cobblestoned. The scar tissue often itches and micro-needling helps that so I doubt that I would be healing the scar tissue while hurting the adjacent tissue with hair. The only reason why my hair still looks a little thin in places is that those are transplants that took but they don't lie right. If I look in the hand mirror, the part looks fine, but you can see the circles everywhere with at least some hair growing in them. The same goes for the sides and back of my head since I got butchered and they almost took too much which might be a reason why I needed to take the HRT path.
 

benjt2

Established Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
226
Yeah, the studies were mostly at 1.5 mm though and not nearly as dense as what we do with electric pens. Scars also depend on wound size IIRC but not sure. Maybe it's also possible to scar at bigger depths while avoiding scars in the epidermis? Technically it should be possible, as it happens in Androgenetic Alopecia as well.

You got scars from massages? How is that possible? Any success with the massages?
 

JaneyElizabeth

Senior Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
1,586
I fixed it. I had massive scarring. Massage is something that heals large areas of scar tissue so that's why it might work on bald scalp. I gently massage and pull the scalp and skin in front of the ears forward because hair loss might be from the stretching back of the scalp increasing tension and that hoary theory.
 

fugged

Established Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
33
hmm thanks all,
Didn't see these responses. IM still perplexed on the Follica contradictions here, and posted a new thread trying to open up a conversation again. I have been needling, first with rollers, then a D@ for a while now, and in a few moments it seems to have made a big difference, then it passes like Ive overcompensated or somehow "overshot" the perfect spot. Friggin discouraging.

I would assume that Follicas 1600 holes, if its SO impractical (sounds like it honestly, but again why do they say that), maybe I should just go for longer sessions, more movement (small circles or wavy linear lines) and shallower.

thanks for the thoughts
 

JaneyElizabeth

Senior Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
1,586
hmm thanks all,
Didn't see these responses. IM still perplexed on the Follica contradictions here, and posted a new thread trying to open up a conversation again. I have been needling, first with rollers, then a D@ for a while now, and in a few moments it seems to have made a big difference, then it passes like Ive overcompensated or somehow "overshot" the perfect spot. Friggin discouraging.

I would assume that Follicas 1600 holes, if its SO impractical (sounds like it honestly, but again why do they say that), maybe I should just go for longer sessions, more movement (small circles or wavy linear lines) and shallower.

thanks for the thoughts
I don't think that people need to overthink this as many mm gauges work and many styles and lengths of sessions seem to work for many people. I don't think that microneedling is nearly enough for most balding males but in combination with other meds and massage, it might put people over the top in terms of restoring lost hair. It does amazing things for facial skin too so that leads me to believe that it is a type of skin rejuvenation that for me, works hand in hand with estradiol.
 
Top