Question. male pattern baldness Norwood 2, Mature Hairline Or Something Else?

[DeterioratingWolf]

my first post after I joined today since I discovered something new about my hair and I've officially complete a natural course of treatment with okay-ish results.

I'd like to know if I'm suffering the early stages of male pattern baldness (I think I am tbh), I'm 27 years old and this started when I was 25. my hair is wet after a shower and treatment with Kirkland Minoxidil above my temples but I noticed my crown or near it is looking a somwhat strange as well, not sure if that's due to the water exposing more of my scalp or I'm starting to bald there too now.

any answers to my confusion would be appreciated.

 

[biddybomb]

Sorry to say but definitely male pattern baldness. You can see miniaturisation along your entire hairline which generally isn't a good sign. I think you are prone to lose a lot more in your frontal section given. And yeah those crown shots look pretty sus too.

 

[abcdefg]

Yeah ill go +1 its male pattern baldness. Id compare to older pictures to be sure, but I definitely see recession its Norwood 2+ territory
Big 3 or bust

 

[DeterioratingWolf]

Sorry to say but definitely male pattern baldness. You can see miniaturisation along your entire hairline which generally isn't a good sign. I think you are prone to lose a lot more in your frontal section given. And yeah those crown shots look pretty sus too.

thanks, I appreciate the insight. at 27 years old is there anything I can do to slow or slightly reverse this struggle?

Yeah ill go +1 its male pattern baldness. Id compare to older pictures to be sure, but I definitely see recession its Norwood 2+ territory
Big 3 or bust

I've compared to older pictures and I've always had a widow's peak hairline but it seems more noticeable now, specifically above the temples. I'm not sure what's going on with the crown since I took the picture wet, I'll take some more pictures dry of the crown later if you have the time to take a look at that.

at 27 years old what would you rate my current condition? am I still save able if I start the trusted treatment now? when you say big 3 I know finasteride, minoxidil are two of the 3 but what's the third one?

 

[biddybomb]

thanks, I appreciate the insight. at 27 years old is there anything I can do to slow or slightly reverse this struggle?



I've compared to older pictures and I've always had a widow's peak hairline but it seems more noticeable now, specifically above the temples. I'm not sure what's going on with the crown since I took the picture wet, I'll take some more pictures dry of the crown later if you have the time to take a look at that.

at 27 years old what would you rate my current condition? am I still save able if I start the trusted treatment now? when you say big 3 I know finasteride, minoxidil are two of the 3 but what's the third one?

Yeah definitely you just need to get on finasteride asap. You could also see quite a bit of improvement..... those recently miniaturised hairs could be saved. The other treatment is nizoral shampoo with has some ingrediant in it that is supposed to be anti-dht. In reality it should just be called the big 1 (finasteride) and the other 2 are supplements to it (or the little 2) because nothing is going to help your hair in the long term other than finasteride.

 

[DeterioratingWolf]

Yeah definitely you just need to get on finasteride asap. You could also see quite a bit of improvement..... those recently miniaturised hairs could be saved. The other treatment is nizoral shampoo with has some ingrediant in it that is supposed to be anti-dht. In reality it should just be called the big 1 (finasteride) and the other 2 are supplements to it (or the little 2) because nothing is going to help your hair in the long term other than finasteride.

thanks for replying, I tried asking my doctor for finasteride last year but he was acting weirdly stand-offish and didn't wanna prescribe it to me, how much does it cost without medical over the counter and is there any way to convince him to give it me that would cover via medical?

 

[DeterioratingWolf]

this is my hairline, temples and crown with it dry for comparison to my initial post with it wet (for some reason wet looks worse with everyone, even girls) does it look any better or worse to you guys? @biddybomb @abcdefg

 

[abcdefg]

The only thing to do is keep using minoxidil and just live with male pattern baldness or go see a doctor/dermatologist for a real life evaluation and ask if propecia is a good idea. Use propecia forever. That is the choice today use propecia, and hope it works or accept male pattern baldness while using minoxidil to see how it goes.
I understand some men dont want to use propecia and alter their hormones because I felt the same way for many years. That is the choice to make though. In 3 or 4 years there might be an alternative.

 

[hopeforhappiness]

You’re thinning and receding but you aren’t too far gone (Norwood 3 and beyond). You also have thick *** hair you could easily hide the recession with a hairstyle.

Now is sort of your last chance to hop on treatments and still have a decent head of hair into older age. If your doctor is acting weird about finasteride go to a derm and get a script or just bypass them and get one online. ASAP my friend.

I would be using minoxidil on those recently receded areas twice a day and once a day on the top and crown.

It is also recommended that you get a ketoconazole shampoo at least 1% like nizoral. Use this every other day as it is an anti fungal and is said to remove any left over dht (the enemy) from your scalp.

Those are ‘big three’ with finasteride being the most efficient for long term maintenance and minoxidil being the most effective growth stimulant. There are other things you can add but the above listed treatments are the first steps and the ‘cornerstone’ or ‘framework’ if you will of your fight against male pattern baldness.

 

[DeterioratingWolf]

You’re thinning and receding but you aren’t too far gone (Norwood 3 and beyond). You also have thick *** hair you could easily hide the recession with a hairstyle.

Now is sort of your last chance to hop on treatments and still have a decent head of hair into older age. If your doctor is acting weird about finasteride go to a derm and get a script or just bypass them and get one online. ASAP my friend.

I would be using minoxidil on those recently receded areas twice a day and once a day on the top and crown.

It is also recommended that you get a ketoconazole shampoo at least 1% like nizoral. Use this every other day as it is an anti fungal and is said to remove any left over dht (the enemy) from your scalp.

Those are ‘big three’ with finasteride being the most efficient for long term maintenance and minoxidil being the most effective growth stimulant. There are other things you can add but the above listed treatments are the first steps and the ‘cornerstone’ or ‘framework’ if you will of your fight against male pattern baldness.

Thanks so much for your detailed reply! I have the entire arsenal to fight against and recover from mbp excluding Finasteride because as I mentioned, my doctor doesn't want to prescribe it to me for some weird reason. I've attached a picture of what I'm working with, I have a Finasteride natural substitute organically and naturally for 4 months and it seems to be helping but slowly, it consists of saw palmetto, pygeum, and stinging nettle. I also straight up drink organic pumpkin oil from a verified provider which I also did research on that it inhibits inflammation and indirectly halts DHT.

what are your thoughts on this? I'll try to get finasteride asap by your recommendation but I've been trying since 2016 and the doctor won't let me, I don't know what's his problem, sometimes I wonder if he's trying to sabotage me on purpose for 2 years.

 

[hopeforhappiness]

Thanks so much for your detailed reply! I have the entire arsenal to fight against and recover from mbp excluding Finasteride because as I mentioned, my doctor doesn't want to prescribe it to me for some weird reason. I've attached a picture of what I'm working with, I have a Finasteride natural substitute organically and naturally for 4 months and it seems to be helping but slowly, it consists of saw palmetto, pygeum, and stinging nettle. I also straight up drink organic pumpkin oil from a verified provider which I also did research on that it inhibits inflammation and indirectly halts DHT.

what are your thoughts on this? I'll try to get finasteride asap by your recommendation but I've been trying since 2016 and the doctor won't let me, I don't know what's his problem, sometimes I wonder if he's trying to sabotage me on purpose for 2 years.

If you’ve been trying for 2 years with no success your doctor using his own concern for prescribing something that could potentially alter your horomonal balance to outweigh your own concern for having hair ! He sounds like a good doctor. However if you want to keep your hair long term you’re going to need to take a 5ar inhibitor or respond really well to an antiandrogen. To put it simple keep your doctor but don’t bother asking him. Get a derm or get a script online. Start at .25mg then .50mg on up to the full 1 -1.25mg dose depending upon with whether you end up with generic, propecia, or proscar etc. Not sure how to say this without sounding rude or whatever but finasteride is not just my recommendation. It is also the recommendation of everyone on this board and all the derms and specialists across the world (figuratively speaking) that you at least try it. I.e. it’s commonly prescribed as the most viable and only fda approved treatment for male pattern baldness. Inhibiting dht is very important, finasteride is convenient, sustainable, socially acceptable etc. Everyone wants to be able to just take a pill and make the problem go away, finasteride is your option.

Minoxidil is a life sentence. If you’re a responder you’ll learn it’s more convenient than not having hair.

Everything else youre using has some science behind it and would be good supplementation to finasteride but not a substitute. As of now we have nothing to replace finasteride. Saw palmetto and pumpkin seed oil etc will help but they will not plummet systemic dht levels like finasteride will long term.

Regarding your doctor again if he is so resistant to prescribe finasteride then he is presumably knowledgeable about its side effects. You should get the drug and tell him you are taking it against his recommendation and ask if he is willing to help monitor your side effects and keep you informed on the best ways to avoid them. This is what I am doing with my dietician.

 

[hopeforhappiness]

You start low so that ideally by the time you get up to the recommended 1-1.25mg dose your body has had time to adjust to the hormonal change and you may possibly avoid any sides. There are those that start at the full dose and never have problems and those that do the same and shortly there after get side effects so nasty they never take the drug agajn. You can decide just how bold you’re going to be with new treatments.

As with your crown or the top of your head- looks to be thinning. It doesn’t look bad at all, very early stage. Lucky enough you caught it early enough that it can easily be mistaken for a ‘cowlick’ (patch of hair that grows in an angle nonadjacent to surrounding hair, often showing a bit of scalp) Lots of people use cowlick to discribe the ‘hair whirl’ or very center of the crown. Anyone receding from male pattern baldness is very prone to crown thinning as well so you be the judge as to whether or not it’s just a ‘cowlick.’ Point being if it is thinning due to miniturization (I think most on here would agree) do you want to keep it disguised as a cowlick, possibly improve it, or risk letting it progress into a bald spot? Another choice to make.

Finasteride and minoxidil can address all these issues. Other homeopathic, prescription, and over the counter treatments such as ketoconazole and fluocinonide solutions, vitamins and supplements etc may work synergistically to increase the benefits of the aforementioned treatments. But none of these are going to reduce androgen related hair fall, miniturization and itchiness/inflammation as well as finasteride.

 

[DeterioratingWolf]

You start low so that ideally by the time you get up to the recommended 1-1.25mg dose your body has had time to adjust to the hormonal change and you may possibly avoid any sides. There are those that start at the full dose and never have problems and those that do the same and shortly there after get side effects so nasty they never take the drug agajn. You can decide just how bold you’re going to be with new treatments.

As with your crown or the top of your head- looks to be thinning. It doesn’t look bad at all, very early stage. Lucky enough you caught it early enough that it can easily be mistaken for a ‘cowlick’ (patch of hair that grows in an angle nonadjacent to surrounding hair, often showing a bit of scalp) Lots of people use cowlick to discribe the ‘hair whirl’ or very center of the crown. Anyone receding from male pattern baldness is very prone to crown thinning as well so you be the judge as to whether or not it’s just a ‘cowlick.’ Point being if it is thinning due to miniturization (I think most on here would agree) do you want to keep it disguised as a cowlick, possibly improve it, or risk letting it progress into a bald spot? Another choice to make.

Finasteride and minoxidil can address all these issues. Other homeopathic, prescription, and over the counter treatments such as ketoconazole and fluocinonide solutions, vitamins and supplements etc may work synergistically to increase the benefits of the aforementioned treatments. But none of these are going to reduce androgen related hair fall, miniturization and itchiness/inflammation as well as finasteride.

I understand. still I'm depressed and desperate, the girl I've known since 2008 is perfection in my eyes and the least I can do is look good enough to simply be allowed in her presence. I'd like to reverse my hairline back to a Norwood 1 when I was 24 and below age wise but I'm not sure that's possible now that you've said Finasteride and Minoxidil combo is the only way to get great results. I just got started on Minoxidil on February 5, 2018 near the start of this year and the Doctor didn't give me Finasteride for 2 years.... with that said, do you think there's any possibility of reversing my hair fall from a what I assume to be a Norwood 2 back to Norwood 1 or at least at best a Norwood 1.5 if that in-between number exists?

as for your opinion on my crown, I'll take your advice. I'd rather be safe than sorry, from all the people I asked they all think it's that cowlick thing you described (thanks for explaining that btw, didn't know that was even a thing) I was intending to use minoxidil above my temples only but I guess it seems I'll have to start using it on the crown as well just in case for preventive measures. I have plenty of hair on my head itself but I don't know how to tell the exact difference from a normal shaft of hair to a slowly deteriorating one. I'm not that knowledgeable or precise so following the advice of experienced folks such as yourself the wise option.

yeah I've been on saw palmetto, pygeum bark extract and stinging nettle extract for about 2 years now hoping it could be a valid substitute for Finasteride and to be fair I've seen some benefits and hair growth but nothing significant, it's all been minor or slightly below average in results. so they do in fact block 5 alpha reductse from converting into testosterone into dht successfully but from what I assume at a much slower and weaker rate than finasteride from what you're saying.

with all that said and done I have a few other questions if that's okay?

1. what do you think about 0.25m to 1.5m derma rollers for the hairline and derma stamps for the crown? is using them along with minoxidil a good combo or is it potentially dangerous with too much absorptio?
2. does sex, ejaculations or masturbation contribute to testosterone being converted into dht true? if so, does becoming celibate/abstinent slow down drastically or outright stop male pattern baldness sufferers?
3. is Omega 3 Fish Oil, Flaxseed oil and Biotin truly good natural supplements to continue use along with finasteride?

 

[hopeforhappiness]

I understand. still I'm depressed and desperate, the girl I've known since 2008 is perfection in my eyes and the least I can do is look good enough to simply be allowed in her presence. I'd like to reverse my hairline back to a Norwood 1 when I was 24 and below age wise but I'm not sure that's possible now that you've said Finasteride and Minoxidil combo is the only way to get great results. I just got started on Minoxidil on February 5, 2018 near the start of this year and the Doctor didn't give me Finasteride for 2 years.... with that said, do you think there's any possibility of reversing my hair fall from a what I assume to be a Norwood 2 back to Norwood 1 or at least at best a Norwood 1.5 if that in-between number exists?

as for your opinion on my crown, I'll take your advice. I'd rather be safe than sorry, from all the people I asked they all think it's that cowlick thing you described (thanks for explaining that btw, didn't know that was even a thing) I was intending to use minoxidil above my temples only but I guess it seems I'll have to start using it on the crown as well just in case for preventive measures. I have plenty of hair on my head itself but I don't know how to tell the exact difference from a normal shaft of hair to a slowly deteriorating one. I'm not that knowledgeable or precise so following the advice of experienced folks such as yourself the wise option.

yeah I've been on saw palmetto, pygeum bark extract and stinging nettle extract for about 2 years now hoping it could be a valid substitute for Finasteride and to be fair I've seen some benefits and hair growth but nothing significant, it's all been minor or slightly below average in results. so they do in fact block 5 alpha reductse from converting into testosterone into dht successfully but from what I assume at a much slower and weaker rate than finasteride from what you're saying.

with all that said and done I have a few other questions if that's okay?

1. what do you think about 0.25m to 1.5m derma rollers for the hairline and derma stamps for the crown? is using them along with minoxidil a good combo or is it potentially dangerous with too much absorptio?
2. does sex, ejaculations or masturbation contribute to testosterone being converted into dht true? if so, does becoming celibate/abstinent slow down drastically or outright stop male pattern baldness sufferers?
3. is Omega 3 Fish Oil, Flaxseed oil and Biotin truly good natural supplements to continue use along with finasteride?

Yea it’s f*****g depressing mate but it’s important you don’t let fear and depression keep you from accepting the reality and using treatment. Once you start seeing benefits it becomes empowering... like you have baldness genes but you know you’re not going to let them win. You caught it nice and early !!

1. Derma rollers should just come in the box with minoxidil. They’re harmless in terms of side effects and the studies that were done show that in combo with minoxidil derma can achieve much more growth than just minoxidil alone. I do .5mm on the hairline for absorption a few times a week and apply my topicals directly after. I do 1.5mm every 2 weeks and give my scalp a 24 hr breather. minoxidil side effects are very weak in my opinion. The ‘rush’ or increased heart rate goes away with continued use and the ’puffyness’ is no different then how you would look after eating food high in sodium... maybe it can cause wrinkles after 10-15 years of use at which point you’ll start getting them naturally.

I hardly concern myself with systemic absorption in terms of minoxidil and ru58841.

2. Chronic masturbation is unhealthy and causes depression. If you’ve got a partner just save your energy for them... they’ll appreciate it. Sex is also a non issue unless you’re having it 10 times a day 7 days a week... at which point it is probably of degraded quality and would be a good idea to tone it down anyway. I would stay away from excessive weight resistance training and lifting.

3. I put chia seeds and ground flax into my cereal and smoothies everyday. I take biotin fairly often. I do not consider these a waste of time.

 

[hopeforhappiness]

1.5mm wounding is used to achieve ‘neogenisis’ which uses your body’s natural healing process to increase blood flow and attract growth factors that are good for hair and may possibly revive hair follicles. You should see some blood but don’t over do it. I don’t think anything lower than 1.5 will do it unless you’re pressing really hard which may not be good for your scalp.

There’s no telling when your hairloss started and it’s natural but pointless to reach for some thing that may have triggered it or sped it up in the past. What I’ve found listening to people talk about it is that people feel guilty for all kinds of weird pointless sh*t lol masturbation drug use etc. In my theory the only things you can do to destroy your hair in a short amount of time are anabolic compounds or prolonged periods of chronic stress.

Flaxseed oil derives from flax seed I’m sure it’s great ! Chia seeds are good source of omega 3 and antioxidants

If you’re not going to use finasteride you’re going to want to look into a topical anti androgen. finasteride is a 5ar inhibitors and works by blocking the enzyme that converts test into dht, there for lowering dht levels to like 10% of the normal range. Anti androgens block androgen receptors from attaching to dht. You would use them topically to localize the effect to the scalp. Ru58841 is an anti androgen. There are plenty of threads on here where you can learn all about that and other anti androgens. Ru is the most accessible and the weakest though some people can maintain on it alone. You’ll almost never see anyone getting side effects. I’m on finasteride and I also use ru58841 because they have different modes of action. One lowers dht and the other blocks dht from reaching hair follicles. To me a multi faceted approach is logically the best way to fight male pattern baldness.

 

[DeterioratingWolf]

1.5mm wounding is used to achieve ‘neogenisis’ which uses your body’s natural healing process to increase blood flow and attract growth factors that are good for hair and may possibly revive hair follicles. You should see some blood but don’t over do it. I don’t think anything lower than 1.5 will do it unless you’re pressing really hard which may not be good for your scalp.

There’s no telling when your hairloss started and it’s natural but pointless to reach for some thing that may have triggered it or sped it up in the past. What I’ve found listening to people talk about it is that people feel guilty for all kinds of weird pointless sh*t lol masturbation drug use etc. In my theory the only things you can do to destroy your hair in a short amount of time are anabolic compounds or prolonged periods of chronic stress.

Flaxseed oil derives from flax seed I’m sure it’s great ! Chia seeds are good source of omega 3 and antioxidants

If you’re not going to use finasteride you’re going to want to look into a topical anti androgen. finasteride is a 5ar inhibitors and works by blocking the enzyme that converts test into dht, there for lowering dht levels to like 10% of the normal range. Anti androgens block androgen receptors from attaching to dht. You would use them topically to localize the effect to the scalp. Ru58841 is an anti androgen. There are plenty of threads on here where you can learn all about that and other anti androgens. Ru is the most accessible and the weakest though some people can maintain on it alone. You’ll almost never see anyone getting side effects. I’m on finasteride and I also use ru58841 because they have different modes of action. One lowers dht and the other blocks dht from reaching hair follicles. To me a multi faceted approach is logically the best way to fight male pattern baldness.

sorry for the late reply. I've been busy. anyway thank you for all the helpful advice and tips.

just one more thing. I took a couple new pictures of my crown with my hair parted in daytime and evening lighting, tons of dandruff after a 2% Nizoral treatment, my hair is parted but dry this time. what do you think as a follow up, cowlick or suspicious?

sorry for the graphic dandruff content, it's a problem and I'm wondering if it's partially to blame for some of my hair fall aside from early stages of male pattern baldness.

edit: I didn't attach any pictures of my temples because I've seen gains/improvements since my Minoxidil 5% + Micro needle derma roller 1.0 to 2.0 treatment, although it seems to be boosting results to 50% efficiency, it's coming with some unwanted side effects, but at least it's working to the point where I'm not as worried about it anymore, at least not in comparison to my crown which I'm not sure about after subscription strength 2% Nizoral treatment.

 

[hopeforhappiness]

sorry for the late reply. I've been busy. anyway thank you for all the helpful advice and tips.

just one more thing. I took a couple new pictures of my crown with my hair parted in daytime and evening lighting, tons of dandruff after a 2% Nizoral treatment, my hair is parted but dry this time. what do you think as a follow up, cowlick or suspicious?

sorry for the graphic dandruff content, it's a problem and I'm wondering if it's partially to blame for some of my hair fall aside from early stages of male pattern baldness.

edit: I didn't attach any pictures of my temples because I've seen gains/improvements since my Minoxidil 5% + Micro needle derma roller 1.0 to 2.0 treatment, although it seems to be boosting results to 50% efficiency, it's coming with some unwanted side effects, but at least it's working to the point where I'm not as worried about it anymore, at least not in comparison to my crown which I'm not sure about after subscription strength 2% Nizoral treatment.

That is very intense dandruff and I don’t mean that lightly, though not trying to be rude. Whatever is causing that can absolutely increase hairloss. Your part line looks to be fairly wide. Get on a 5ar inhibitor or an anti androgen and get that dandruff taken care of and you will likely see some thickening and regrowth and be able to maintain it. The prescription keto shampoo could be too harsh, this is not entirely uncommon.

 

[DeterioratingWolf]

That is very intense dandruff and I don’t mean that lightly, though not trying to be rude. Whatever is causing that can absolutely increase hairloss. Your part line looks to be fairly wide. Get on a 5ar inhibitor or an anti androgen and get that dandruff taken care of and you will likely see some thickening and regrowth and be able to maintain it. The prescription keto shampoo could be too harsh, this is not entirely uncommon.

hey there! thanks for your reply. I've been away again. I'm officially on the big 3 now after finally getting a dermatologist to give me 1mg finasteride and more prescription strength 2% Ketoconazole. I also have plenty (5 months supply) of Kirkland brand 5% Minoxidil.

she said I'm a Norwood 2 on the scale list but she said she's somewhat confused because I have incredibly thick hair even at the hairline. she gave me 2 of the big 3 anyway just in case for my concerns but said my case is different from most. do you have any idea whats goin on?

I also have an update to my crown. Dandruff is finally under 90% control, the 2% Ketoconazole in controlled used is working like a charm but how does it help with male pattern baldness? it looks different compared to before but I'm not sure what's changed exactly, lighting is a bit different too tho. I've attached images of some cow licks as well for comparison.

 

[Raphael13]

The hairline in itself is pretty good. However, there appears be some thinning going on on the front. Don't let it control you, I experience more eye contact from females when I got a buzz cut. My hairloss isnt bad tho, but you can still look pretty damn good bald with a nice beard. Plus you might not even bald all the way, we simply cannot know what will happen and when.

 

[DeterioratingWolf]

The hairline in itself is pretty good. However, there appears be some thinning going on on the front. Don't let it control you, I experience more eye contact from females when I got a buzz cut. My hairloss isnt bad tho, but you can still look pretty damn good bald with a nice beard. Plus you might not even bald all the way, we simply cannot know what will happen and when.

hi.

thanks for your point of view. but those pictures are now somewhat outdated. there's been some changes since then, lots of new jet black hairs are sprouting and it looks like if they continue to grow at this healthy pace my new hairline could land at a Norwood 1.5 if that exists. I'd settle for a 1.5 if reversing back to a Norwood 1 isn't fully possible. with this I guess that means I'm responding good to treatment?