Propecia versus Rogaine: some direct comparisons!

[Temples]

Great stuff, Bry.

 

[Pirate Commander F.B.]

long time lurking.....first time poster......so forgive me if this question has been repeated often......

if you take both......finasteride maintains......minoxidil regrows...........

if say.......you regrow to the point you want with minoxidil.......could you stop minoxidil at that point.....and finasteride would maintain what minoxidil regrew?

I can assure you this has been asked a couple of times before ... about a brillion times actually. Without going into details, the answer is NO. Also, Finasteride can regrow hair, just look at the charts. The numbers increase for finasteride as well, just not as much as with minoxidil. So it's not entirely accurate to say minoxidil regrows and finasteride maintains.

 

[Guest]

Sorry this graph is nearly 600k :freaked: , for those of you on dial up it may take a minute or two to start to animate, if you can't wait just hit the stop button in your browser, you should still be able to read the rest of the page ok.

Also once this graph has loaded you can drag it onto your desktop to view it without reloading this page (in something that will play a gif like a browser page or quicktime player)

Hair weight increases are represented by an increase in plot line thickness, these percentage changes have been doubled
throughout this graph as a change from 100% to 124% (in the case of 2% minoxidil at 96 weeks) was just too subtle as to
carry any meaning, so the 24% increased hair weight for 2% minoxidil @ week 96 is represented by a 48% thicker plot line.


The shape given to the evolving plot lines is pure conjecture, I have just smoothed out (using weighted splines) the linear
plots generated by the known data points (the small circles), also the start point is ramped in by an arbitrary amount.

 

[Guest]

Bryan what method of joining these two sets of data would you think may give us a reasonable guide to the efficacy of a finasteride/minoxidil combination regimen?

I am presuming that just adding the values of each treatment together may be a little too simplistic but I suppose as finasteride and minoxidil work in entirely different ways that does point towards adding the results together?

hhmmm.....

Any ideas, theories?

 

[jason566]

Tynan how is your graph accurate? i thought the study said that finasteride increases hair weight better than minoxidil..and minoxidil ncreases hair count better than finasteride..so why does your graph show minoxidil with better hair weight results than finasteride at week 1 to 96?

also Bryan Im assuming that taking propecia and then say you have to quit for whatever reasons..you actually be making yourself worse in the long run?..cause u end up balding faster than the people who never took finasteride?..that doesnt sound to good like a double edged sword

 

[Guest]

Tynan how is your graph accurate? i thought the study said that finasteride increases hair weight better than minoxidil..and minoxidil ncreases hair count better than finasteride..so why does your graph show minoxidil with better hair weight results than finasteride at week 1 to 96?

I think you may have missread Bryan's original data. The data does not say finasteride increases hair weight better than minoxidil, well at least untill finasteride shows a small 1.5% advantage at week 96, up untill there minoxidil is better at increasing hair weight, you may need to re-read Bryan's original post.

also Bryan Im assuming that taking propecia and then say you have to quit for whatever reasons..you actually be making yourself worse in the long run?..cause u end up balding faster than the people who never took finasteride?..that doesnt sound to good like a double edged sword

You may lose a little more than the non-medicated or placebo group when you first stop using finasteride, but after a few months you soon go back to where you would have been had you not used finasteride.

 

[sick~lee]

not what i was asking......but i found my answer elsewhere.......merci

[quote="sick~lee":5e8ed]long time lurking.....first time poster......so forgive me if this question has been repeated often......

if you take both......finasteride maintains......minoxidil regrows...........

if say.......you regrow to the point you want with minoxidil.......could you stop minoxidil at that point.....and finasteride would maintain what minoxidil regrew?

I can assure you this has been asked a couple of times before ... about a brillion times actually. Without going into details, the answer is NO. Also, Finasteride can regrow hair, just look at the charts. The numbers increase for finasteride as well, just not as much as with minoxidil. So it's not entirely accurate to say minoxidil regrows and finasteride maintains.[/quote:5e8ed]

 

[jason566]

Tynan how is your graph accurate? i thought the study said that finasteride increases hair weight better than minoxidil..and minoxidil ncreases hair count better than finasteride..so why does your graph show minoxidil with better hair weight results than finasteride at week 1 to 96?

I think you may have missread Bryan's original data. The data does not say finasteride increases hair weight better than minoxidil, well at least untill finasteride shows a small 1.5% advantage at week 96, up untill there minoxidil is better at increasing hair weight, you may need to re-read Bryan's original post.


So basically in the long run propecia works betetr than minoxidil at increasing hair weight?..since minoxidil intially works better but as time progresses minoxidil starts to not work as well due to the ongoing balding process..but finasteride since it works sytematically at reducing the cause or one of em..it has better long term results...is this assumption correct?

 

[Guest]

So basically in the long run propecia works beter than minoxidil at increasing hair weight?..

yeah, you can see this start to happen at week 96 where finasterides (propecias) effect on hair weight is an increase of 21.5% over the baseline, whilst at this point minoxidils influence had fallen to 20% over baseline.

Look at the animated graph on the right where the circles and bars of finasteride end 'week 96' bigger than the other medications, but more importantly bigger than their own '48 week' hair weight value.

since minoxidil intially works better but as time progresses minoxidil starts to not work as well due to the ongoing balding process

maybe, there is also the possibility that the minoxidil effect peaks (????), it would be great if they used a non-MPB group in the trials to remove the 'balding process taking over' theory. Bottom line: I presume it is the onslaught of DHT taking its toll.

..but finasteride since it works sytematically at reducing the cause or one of em..it has better long term results...is this assumption correct?

Yeah that sounds good to me! my conclusion would be use them both.

Hair weight increases are represented by an increase in plot line thickness, these percentage changes have been doubled
throughout this graph as a change from 100% to 124% (in the case of 2% minoxidil at 96 weeks) was just too subtle as to
carry any meaning, so the 24% increased hair weight for 2% minoxidil @ week 96 is represented by a 48% thicker plot line.


The shape given to the evolving plot lines is pure conjecture, I have just smoothed out (using weighted splines) the linear
plots generated by the known data points (the small circles), also the start point is ramped in by an arbitrary amount.

 

[S Foote.]

>>this data supports what I've been saying for a long time: minoxidil is relatively more effective at stimulating hairgrowth than finasteride per unit area of scalp, but it probably doesn't interfere with the fundamental balding process like finasteride does, which explains why finasteride will eventually "catch up" and surpass minoxidil after a period of time.

Questions? Comments? Flames? <<

Certainly Bryan!

The very fact that Minoxidil has any positive effect on hair growth at all, proves that the current theory of DHT interacting `DIRECTLY' with follicle cells at the genetic level is just plain wrong!

We are being told that DHT acts via androgen receptors to change the expression of genes in follicle cells to restrict cell growth at the very basic level. So how can anything that does not interfere with this pathway (like Minoxidil) possibly `by-pass' this?????

The instructions to reduce cell multiplication in male pattern baldness, are `supposed' to come from the central control of the cells genetic expression (according to the theory you support Bryan).

If so it would be impossible for any number of external `growth factors', or anything else to alter this basic growth programing!

The very fact that Minoxidil, and other non-androgen related substances work at all, demonstrates that the effect of androgens must be `in-direct'.

I await your diversionary comments from my point!

S Foote.

 

[Bryan]

>> Questions? Comments? Flames? <<

Certainly Bryan!

Hey, Season's Greetings to you, Stephen! Happy New Year to you!

The very fact that Minoxidil has any positive effect on hair growth at all, proves that the current theory of DHT interacting `DIRECTLY' with follicle cells at the genetic level is just plain wrong!

Really?? Gosh, I'll be fascinated to hear how you arrive at that conclusion!

We are being told that DHT acts via androgen receptors to change the expression of genes in follicle cells to restrict cell growth at the very basic level. So how can anything that does not interfere with this pathway (like Minoxidil) possibly `by-pass' this?????

You sound a bit like my friend Ernie, who keeps asking me, "What does it take to grow hair, if not androgens? It must take something..."

The instructions to reduce cell multiplication in male pattern baldness, are `supposed' to come from the central control of the cells genetic expression (according to the theory you support Bryan).

If so it would be impossible for any number of external `growth factors', or anything else to alter this basic growth programing!

Oh, so you think it's impossible for various growth factors or inhibitors that are introduced EXTERNALLY to the hair follicle to affect cellular function, without actually affecting genetic expression? (Yawn) Various chemicals or enzymes can't interfere directly with cellular energy production, for example? (Twiddling thumbs in boredom) A poison like cyanide can't kill a cell quickly without altering genetic expression? (Wondering what's on HBO right now)

The very fact that Minoxidil, and other non-androgen related substances work at all, demonstrates that the effect of androgens must be `in-direct'.

Stephen, you have entirely too much time on your hands, I'm afraid. You need to find something constructive to do...

Bryan

 

[S Foote.]

S Foote. wrote:
>> Questions? Comments? Flames? <<

Certainly Bryan!


>>Hey, Season's Greetings to you, Stephen! Happy New Year to you!<<

Thank you Bryan, and the same to you.

S Foote. wrote:
The very fact that Minoxidil has any positive effect on hair growth at all, proves that the current theory of DHT interacting `DIRECTLY' with follicle cells at the genetic level is just plain wrong!


>>Really?? Gosh, I'll be fascinated to hear how you arrive at that conclusion! <<

S Foote. wrote:
We are being told that DHT acts via androgen receptors to change the expression of genes in follicle cells to restrict cell growth at the very basic level. So how can anything that does not interfere with this pathway (like Minoxidil) possibly `by-pass' this?????


>>You sound a bit like my friend Ernie, who keeps asking me, "What does it take to grow hair, if not androgens? It must take something..."<<

I'am afraid your attempts to link me with Ernie, just say alot about your lack of judgement!!

S Foote. wrote:
The instructions to reduce cell multiplication in male pattern baldness, are `supposed' to come from the central control of the cells genetic expression (according to the theory you support Bryan).

If so it would be impossible for any number of external `growth factors', or anything else to alter this basic growth programing!


>>Oh, so you think it's impossible for various growth factors or inhibitors that are introduced EXTERNALLY to the hair follicle to affect cellular function, without actually affecting genetic expression? (Yawn) Various chemicals or enzymes can't interfere directly with cellular energy production, for example? (Twiddling thumbs in boredom) A poison like cyanide can't kill a cell quickly without altering genetic expression? (Wondering what's on HBO right now) <<

It's a simple point Bryan, that you can not explain by the theory you claim to believe in! Stop avoiding the point.

The current theory that you support, tells us that DHT is `locking' down the growth potential of follicles at the genetic level within the cells. In other words the growth rate is being fixed right at the heart of the cell.

How can `ANY' known process in biology that does not effect this DHT/genetic pathway, get around the supposed genetic `lock' ? It is just not possible if the current theory is correct!

So instead of yawning and playing with your TV remote, please answer the question!!

S Foote. wrote:
The very fact that Minoxidil, and other non-androgen related substances work at all, demonstrates that the effect of androgens must be `in-direct'.


>>Stephen, you have entirely too much time on your hands, I'm afraid. You need to find something constructive to do... <<

I am always doing something constructive Bryan, like pointing out pretty obvious flaws in the current theory of DHT related hair growth/loss/

I have also just finished re-building my motorcycle. You should get yourself a Harley and do the route 66 thing Bryan! Some fresh air and a change of scenery could blow those cobwebs out of your brain!

You could be a `hairs Angel' :lol:

S Foote.