propecia dht question

[Bryan]

ive gone all this time with it all backward then. but i spose the psuedohermaphrodites prove it. i guess this is why dutasteride not much better for hairloss than finasteride then , because they block basically the same amount of type 2 , and the fact that dutasteride blocks shiteloads of type 1 is irrelevant.

Actually, I disagree with both of those last two statements!

Have you seen those finasteride/dutasteride graphs which I've posted in the past? They show that at a dose of 5mg/day, finasteride inhibits an average of about 90% of the type 2 enzyme, while dutasteride at the standard Avodart dosage (0.5 mg/day) inhibits around 98%-99% of the type 2 enzyme and probably a little over 50% of the type 1 enzyme (you have to extrapolate a little from the graph for those estimates).

I've long suspected that at least part of dutasteride's better apparent performance against hairloss than finasteride _may_ be due to its more complete inhibition of the type 2 enzyme (98%-99%, versus only 90%).

Bryan

 

[Guest]

Thanks for your posting Bryan it was really helpfull. And I made a mistake, I got the propecia quote from DR LEES info. But i dont know if anyone else noticed but dr lees info on product performance is off.

Here are some quotes from dr lees site:

Biopsies and biochemical analyses corroborate the elevated 5-alpha-reductase levels in the frontal scalp of balding men and the lack of hair loss in human males with 5-alpha-reductase deficiencies.(3) In fact, the levels of 5-alpha-reductase is usually 4 times higher in balding areas than the occiput, which is not affected in male pattern baldness.


And this is what I meant. It says it blocks TYPE 1.

finasteride lowers serum dihydrotestosterone levels in men by 65-80% compared to baseline levels and decreases intraprostatic levels of dihydrotestosterone by 85% compared to placebo

Although Finasteride may lower the serum level of DHT by 60-80%., the DHT reduction at the actual follicle is far less than 60%-80% because the predominant enzyme that converts testosterone to DHT in the scalp is type 1, 5-alpha reductase, which is not affected by finasteride.

But I dont really trust dr lees statistics. On his site he says azealiac acid blocks like 100 percent of dht where applied then when I asked him in an email he says it only blocks 50-60 percent of DHT. And he did the same thing with Xandrox 5%. I believe he is a honest guy and his treatments work but I think his statistics are whack. He doesn't really talk about type 2. Propecias site doesn't mention this at all.

 

[Guest]

Well, they obviously have problems prior to puberty, since most are mistakenly raised as girls up to that point. But I'm really not sure about how they fare after they make their transition to obvious manhood AFTER puberty, and that's because I haven't seen any in-depth reports about that yet.

What exactly does this mean? What type of problems did they have? Because before you said this I was going to say its 2 bad I am not a pshperperdite or whatever lol.

 

[Bryan]

The pseudohermaphrodites have improperly formed genitalia when they are born, because DHT is critical for proper development prior to puberty. They _appear_ to be little girls at first and are usually raised as such, but they are definitely boys. Later at puberty, the increase in testosterone begins to cause their genitals to develop more normally, and eventually, the parents realize they don't have a DAUGHTER, they have a SON! They are commonly called "guevo-doces" (I'm probably misspelling that) in the Dominican Republic, which means "penis-at-12".

There are also graphic before-and-after pictures of the genitalia of those pseudo's from that journal article I posted from before, but I can't share pictures like that publicly for obvious reasons.

Bryan

 

[Jack_the_Lad]

interesting stuff, I hope DHT is needed so much after puberty

 

[powersam]

brian have you ever looked into the topical use of finasteride and dutasteride. because if both definately penetrate the skin, as they must due to the warning about pregnant women handling the pills, would topical inhibition not be the best way to use them? ideally not affecting serum hormonal levels?

 

[Bryan]

Oh, I've been very interested in the use ot topical finasteride for years, but it just doesn't seem to be very effective for that purpose for whatever pharmacological reason(s). I suspect topical dutasteride might turn out similarly.

Results from topical finasteride studies have been all over the map: one showed no apparent absorption of ANY kind, neither systemic nor local; another one showed significant systemic absorption; and another one did seem to show the desired "local" effect, with no systemic absorption. So it's hard to figure out what's going on with topical finasteride! :shock:

That's one big reason why I'm also so interested in the use of fatty acids as topical 5a-reductase inhibitors...they clearly always remain "'local", and may indeed be effective at reducing DHT in hair follicles.

Bryan

 

[Hairybush1]

Bryan thanks for all your input. Now, just find us the cure, damn it! lol

By the way, you mentined that 5a-reductase type 1 is found in the skin. I was wondering if suppressing type2, might increase type 1 and therefore cause the enormous increase in acne that I have been getting since starting finasteride 4 months ago?

 

[Guest]

Bryan,

Do you have any take on topical L-Arginine?

Thanks

 

[Bryan]

By the way, you mentined that 5a-reductase type 1 is found in the skin. I was wondering if suppressing type2, might increase type 1 and therefore cause the enormous increase in acne that I have been getting since starting finasteride 4 months ago?

I doubt it (although I obviously can't know for sure), for basically the following reasons:

1) The study which was posted recently (was it here, or on another site?? It's a real problem when you read so many sites, you can't remember what was posted where! ) that found that finasteride had no effect on sebum production in human volunteers.

2) The study which measured type 1 mRNA and type 2 mRNA in human scalp hair follicles under various condiitons, and found that supplemental testosterone INCREASED the apparent production of the type 2 enzyme, but had no effect on the type 1 enzyme.

Having said all that, there are still the inevitable anecdotes from some people who claim either INCREASED or DECREASED sebum from using finasteride. I don't know if those are idiosyncratic responses those individuals have to finasteride, or if they're not really related at all, but just coincidental...

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

Bryan,

Do you have any take on topical L-Arginine?

Thanks

Not really...but since Dr. Proctor uses it in some of his products, I imagine there's probably something to it!

Bryan

 

[Guest]

Bryan,

Do you have any take on topical L-Arginine?

Thanks

Not really...but since Dr. Proctor uses it in some of his products, I imagine there's probably something to it!

Bryan

I just started to use it and will report back. I have to say that from a cosmetic standpoint, it has already made a difference. Could be the vit e in the base though.

Will let you know.

Thanks

 

[Bryan]

I assume that's something you're mixing up and applying yourself...is that correct? What vehicle are you using, and how much/how often are you applying it?

Bryan

 

[Guest]

http://www.strategicsciencetech.com/grow.html

No, I am using the product tied to the link above.

 

[Guest]

Also taking 2 GM a day of L-Arginine caps.