Prolonged Use Of Low Level Laser Therapy..

Cate

Established Member
My Regimen
That's so so worrying.. I really honestly don't know if I am using it right.. After your replies earlier, I gave it a break for 3 days, then contiued use as I had been directed.. each day for 30 mins.. now I am terrified I am making things worst... I'm not sure what to do.. other than give it another break for a while and then resume once every other day?
 

Gary519

Member
My Regimen
That's so so worrying.. I really honestly don't know if I am using it right.. After your replies earlier, I gave it a break for 3 days, then contiued use as I had been directed.. each day for 30 mins.. now I am terrified I am making things worst... I'm not sure what to do.. other than give it another break for a while and then resume once every other day?
I’m sorry if the article caused more angst. I would like to know more about the cap/ helmet you use but if the diodes are similar to mine in power then I think my opinion is worth investigating. If you gave me the name of the cap I could probably verify power of the diodes . Most are similar laser diodes but some helmets mix in weaker leds so the the total power would be less. If you have standard diodes typically used,then it would be giving out power of approximately 2.5 to 3 joules/cm2 per thirty minute session. So that is not the 5 joules/cm2 that has been found to be inhibitory as the article mentions, but stillmore than the 1 joules/cm2 that was shown to work. I only give my scalp 2 joules per session three days a week and I feel that since it is cumulative, then I get about 1 joule per day. Of course I assume I have less hair than you so that makes a difference as to how much reaches the scalp. Thirty minutes a day with your helmet would not work for me, if I had your helmet I would use it for 15. But since you have more hair then 30 could be right for you, but I wouldn’t push it. That is why I mentioned before that you could take an overhead picture of your scalp using a flash to get a better idea of how much light reaches the scalp. If not much scalp is exposed then 30 mins per day may be your number. Just comb out the part in your hair before each session so you don’t overdo it to the part. Also if you get a lot of sun on your head in the summer, you may want to take it a little easier as well. I have read that makes a difference. It will be difficult for you to notice a change since it is a slow process, I just hate to see you overdoing it in hopes of speeding it up. Don’t forget to try using a strong led flashlight in a dark room with a mirror. You will be amazed at how many hairs you really can see that are otherwise impossible to normally see. These smaller thinner hairs that you will be able to see should be the ones that respond more noticably and will give you some satisfaction if you are checking your hair often.
 

Cate

Established Member
My Regimen
If you zoom in on the pic, there is some writing that may help? (thank you so so much!)
 

Gary519

Member
My Regimen
Gosh I wish I could give you the name..I purchased it from HairLogica https://hairlogica.com.au/women/. here is a picture http://i63.tinypic.com/2i134gm.jpg . does that help?

I'm getting about 30 mins of sun a day...
Cate I am familiar with that design. In fact I bought one three years ago for my daughter to help her treat an autoimmune disease that was causing hair loss and scarring. I believed she got some benefit from it. Hers had over 200 diodes and she would use it every other day for 15 minutes. The power supply failed once and she got a replacement under warranty. I believe the instructions called for the power pack to be fully charged before each session and that it could not be used while power pack charged.
Your helmet looks almost identical but with less diodes that are spread out more. I would say that because the diodes are so spread out that the joules/cm2 is going to be more like 2 joules/cm2 which is good based on your use of 30 minutes and the fact that you have decent hair coverage. The only suggestion I would have is that you shift the helmet on your head after 15 minutes if you can, with the idea of changing the position of the lasers over your scalp.
If you let direct sunlight bake your head be careful and consider taking a day off when you get a lot of sun.
 

Cate

Established Member
My Regimen
That is SO helpful - thank you! The charge lasts a fair amount of time. I don't have to fully charge the power pack before each use.. But you're right, you cannot use it when charging.. and one of the issues I have, is that it doesn't cover the back of my scalp.

So I can use it daily? Or every other day?

You have been so kind and helpful.. I'm so so grateful..
 

Gary519

Member
My Regimen
BTW.. why does direct sunlight affect things?
I think every day is ok but I would add that a better answer may be 5 to 7 days a week. If you miss a day or two each week it wouldnt hurt at all. It’s kind of crazy because people have had results with less but everyone is different. Your helmet provides a lot more than laser combs. Some people have had positive results from them though. That said, combs just don’t cut it. Helmets are the answer. The hard thing to nail down is the dosage. Companies that sell them don’t seem to know either. They will sell models with varying numbers of diodes yet recommend identical wear times for a helmet with 80 diodes as they would for a 270 diode helmet. That is crazy.
I think you are safe with 30 minutes per day because it is unlikely that would result in inhibitory doses. Just remind yourself that people have responded with significantly less. As far as the sun causing problems, I have only read that on a couple of forums. I haven’t read any study on that. One forum story I remember was about a helmet using individual who went to Florida and experienced extra shedding after spending a lot of time in the sun. Perhaps extra sun causes cells in the scalp to use resources that would otherwise be used to respond to the lasers. I don’t know the reason but other people believe it to be fact.
 
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Cate

Established Member
My Regimen
Thanks so much Gary. I'm concerned with the massive usage I had for a week.. I'm hoping I am not going to get crazy shedding from it. The only side effect that the clinic told me, is that my scalp would become immune to the laser if I overused it.. no one mentioned that it could cause extra shedding...I'll perhaps give a break every few days.,.

Re the sun.. I remember reading somewhere that the units mimic exposure to the sun.. I just did a quick Google search and it was here: https://perfecthairhealth.com/low-level-laser-therapy-does-it-help-with-hair-loss/

"Laser diodes for hair loss emit red light at wavelengths of 630-670 nanometers. The sun emits wavelengths from from 250 to 2,500 nanometers."

So grateful for your help.. really.. I've felt so alone with this.. grasping at straws..
 

Gary519

Member
My Regimen
Cate I am familiar with that design. In fact I bought one three years ago for my daughter to help her treat an autoimmune disease that was causing hair loss and scarring. I believed she got some benefit from it. Hers had over 200 diodes and she would use it every other day for 15 minutes. The power supply failed once and she got a replacement under warranty. I believe the instructions called for the power pack to be fully charged before each session and that it could not be used while power pack charged.
Your helmet looks almost identical but with less diodes that are spread out more. I would say that because the diodes are so spread out that the joules/cm2 is going to be more like 2 joules/cm2 which is good based on your use of 30 minutes and the fact that you have decent hair coverage. The only suggestion I would have is that you shift the helmet on your head after 15 minutes if you can, with the idea of changing the position of the lasers over your scalp.
If you let direct sunlight bake your head be careful and consider taking a day off when you get a lot of sun.
Thanks so much Gary. I'm concerned with the massive usage I had for a week.. I'm hoping I am not going to get crazy shedding from it. The only side effect that the clinic told me, is that my scalp would become immune to the laser if I overused it.. no one mentioned that it could cause extra shedding...I'll perhaps give a break every few days.,.

Re the sun.. I remember reading somewhere that the units mimic exposure to the sun.. I just did a quick Google search and it was here: https://perfecthairhealth.com/low-level-laser-therapy-does-it-help-with-hair-loss/

"Laser diodes for hair loss emit red light at wavelengths of 630-670 nanometers. The sun emits wavelengths from from 250 to 2,500 nanometers."

So grateful for your help.. really.. I've felt so alone with this.. grasping at straws..
Thanks so much Gary. I'm concerned with the massive usage I had for a week.. I'm hoping I am not going to get crazy shedding from it. The only side effect that the clinic told me, is that my scalp would become immune to the laser if I overused it.. no one mentioned that it could cause extra shedding...I'll perhaps give a break every few days.,.

Re the sun.. I remember reading somewhere that the units mimic exposure to the sun.. I just did a quick Google search and it was here: https://perfecthairhealth.com/low-level-laser-therapy-does-it-help-with-hair-loss/

"Laser diodes for hair loss emit red light at wavelengths of 630-670 nanometers. The sun emits wavelengths from from 250 to 2,500 nanometers."

So grateful for your help.. really.. I've felt so alone with this.. grasping at straws..

Cate,
I think you are going to be just fine and I don’t think your period of overuse will have a noticeable effect. I wouldn’t think one fairly brief overuse episode will change the response you get. If you kept that going for a month maybe you would have problems. I’d stay on track and take days off here and there and I think you’ll be good. By the way since lllt is supposed to get follicles to stay in the anagen phase don’t be surprised if after a few months your hair seems to get lighter as thinner hairs grow longer and mix with the darker ones. You may also think your hair hasn’t changed much during bright days but is improved on overcast days. That’s what’s happening to me right now. Keep in touch and I wish you luck.
 
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Gary519

Member
My Regimen
You mean lighter in colour?
I do, but that would only be if you have miniaturized hair with little amount of pigment that responds by staying in anagen without falling out first and grows out longer instead.This has made my hair appear that it is turning white in several areas. It is in areas that the miniturized unpigmented hair has grown longer. This is what I had hoped for. I could color them I suppose but it is my hope and expectation that they turn darker and thicker over time. If they have to fall out first months or years from now I can wait because I am just happy to see results. I am on finasteride but truly believe the laser is just being freed up to do its work. Longer anagen is the idea with the use of the laser helmet. I still believe the hair may turn thicker and darker in the middle of the anagen phase. I will let you know if that happens. These are the hairs I could only see with a flashlight in a dark room before. Now that many of them are long enough to comb horizontaly, they are overlapping darker hairs and making it appear that I have some white patches. weird but I’ll take take all of that. In darker environments the unpigmented hair shows better and gives a significantly fuller appearance. I’m happy so far and will stay with my dosage of laser joules. I was tempted several times in the last couple months to go longer with the laser, probably because 6 minutes just always felt too little. I have a very powerful helmet with over 300 tightly spaced diodes in a typical male pattern baldness outline, not spread out like yours. 6 minutes gives about 2 joules/cm2 so I promised myself I’d stay 2 joules three days a week. Now that the finasteride has taken care of the male pattern dht problem, I think things will keep moving well. I do not want to use minoxidil. I tried it and i had side effects and sheds that seemed big. I am taking pictures as I go along. I’ll post them if things get impressive.
 

Cate

Established Member
My Regimen
I'm on Minoxidil also.. hoping that it won't cause shedding... I was told by the guy at the clinic that it doesn't usually in women....

I have noticed that the new hair that is growing is the deep colour I used to have.. I'm in my 40s, but my hair has been going blonde in the sun.. usually it is ginger.. and thankfully I love the new colour that is coming through..it's vibrant.. it's just the blonde longer strands that have lost colour.. thankfully no greys yet...
 

Gary519

Member
My Regimen
Well minoxidil does work to make hairs that are pigmented and thicker as well as increase the time follicles spend in anagen so you probably have a very good combination going there.
I’m hoping the finasteride and laser combo does similar work eventually.
 

Cate

Established Member
My Regimen
Well minoxidil does work to make hairs that are pigmented and thicker as well as increase the time follicles spend in anagen so you probably have a very good combination going there.
I’m hoping the finasteride and laser combo does similar work eventually.

I hope so too! You're such a kind hearted soul.. so grateful for your help X
 

Rach3

Member
My Regimen
I have been using the Hairmax Ultima 12 into the 7th month, (3x, 8 minutes) and even though at the 4th or so month juncture, I thought there were positive results, I have now come to the conclusion, that the laser caused substantial dark and strong hairs affording scalp coverage to shed en masse at various junctures, replaced with thin vellus hairs. All my tests ferritin, DHT, thyroid, testosterone, etc. were normal--same for vitamin D, though recently I decided to take cod liver oil tsp. and a half daily.. to make D even higher though within normal range. I logged photos from day one.. so I have an archive that is flooding my iphone. My dermatologist agreed, at least for me, that the whole escapade with laser has been a failure. Why would I have more hair before I started than what I have now. Crown thinned, sides thinned..I am talking over MONTHS. Wonder if there are others who have had this unfortunate experience. Early high expectations, and then crashingly low if not significant, hair-losing results.
 
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Rach3

Member
My Regimen
Thanks.. my hair has thinned a lot.. it's VERY long, so like you I would rather keep the hairs I have and strengthen over time.. than loose a heap in shedding.. :( it's been so stressful.. which I know doesn't help.. I just never thought this would happen to me.. :( I could weep..
I have gone through these same ups and downs through seven months with Hairmax, and at this point I am convinced that my strong hairs affording scalp coverage have been shed profusely at too many junctures, being replaced with thin vellus hairs. Early on, I was positive, but sadly this optimism has been erased by concrete photo evidence, in my case, that reveals that overall it did not work and left me with less hair in the present than what I started with.
 

Cate

Established Member
My Regimen
I have been using the Hairmax Ultima 12 into the 7th month, (3x, 8 minutes) and even though at the 4th or so month juncture, I thought there were positive results, I have now come to the conclusion, that the laser caused substantial dark and strong hairs affording scalp coverage to shed en masse at various junctures, replaced with thin vellus hairs. All my tests ferritin, DHT, thyroid, testosterone, etc. were normal--same for vitamin D, though recently I decided to take cod liver oil tsp. and a half daily.. to make D even higher though within normal range. I logged photos from day one.. so I have an archive that is flooding my iphone. My dermatologist agreed, at least for me, that the whole escapade with laser has been a failure. Why would I have more hair before I started than what I have now. Crown thinned, sides thinned..I am talking over MONTHS. Wonder if there are others who have had this unfortunate experience. Early high expectations, and then crashingly low if not significant, hair-losing results.

That's really worrying.... I honestly don't know what to do for the best..
 

Rach3

Member
My Regimen
Empirically, I can't support this mode of hair loss treatment.. and I notice among mass reviews on Amazon that a huge percentage of laser comb users echo what I have experienced. It is interesting that the FDA CLEARED laser combs for SAFETY.. but did not APPROVE LLT as a treatment for hair loss. They have approved Minoxidil.. but I am not able to tolerate the side effects of minoxidil... as my blood pressure already normally low, went far down, and caused dizziness and other side effects. With so much money invested in LLT, and the sales keeping it going, the results are not borne out. I have read reviews by M.D.'s not incentivized by $$$ perks to Hairmax, etc. or the helmets, that the research on LLT was slipshod. From my own exposure to LLT I believe something is awry with the research and how it was performed, amassed, quantified, etc. Finally, I believe, in my case, the LLT took my substantial hairs and shortened their cycle.. replacing with thin vellus hairs. That is a recipe for disaster as far as hoping for more scalp coverage. I will report more when I see my dermatologist on Jan. 4.. although she has tracked my whole story for nearly 7 months.
 

Cate

Established Member
My Regimen
Empirically, I can't support this mode of hair loss treatment.. and I notice among mass reviews on Amazon that a huge percentage of laser comb users echo what I have experienced. It is interesting that the FDA CLEARED laser combs for SAFETY.. but did not APPROVE LLT as a treatment for hair loss. They have approved Minoxidil.. but I am not able to tolerate the side effects of minoxidil... as my blood pressure already normally low, went far down, and caused dizziness and other side effects. With so much money invested in LLT, and the sales keeping it going, the results are not borne out. I have read reviews by M.D.'s not incentivized by $$$ perks to Hairmax, etc. or the helmets, that the research on LLT was slipshod. From my own exposure to LLT I believe something is awry with the research and how it was performed, amassed, quantified, etc. Finally, I believe, in my case, the LLT took my substantial hairs and shortened their cycle.. replacing with thin vellus hairs. That is a recipe for disaster as far as hoping for more scalp coverage. I will report more when I see my dermatologist on Jan. 4.. although she has tracked my whole story for nearly 7 months.

Are you still using the comb? I don't know what to do now.. whether to continue use or ditch it.. I don't use a comb, I use a helmet.. Gary.. still watching this thread? Any comments?
 
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