Outcome of a second civil war?

[CCS]

Suppose Texas and 5 or 6 other states decided to suceed from the United States in December, because they claim Obama is a sociallist. Do you think they would stand even 10th of the chance the South had years ago? Blood bath? Or just a few radicals caught and "civil war" is over?


I'm just asking this question because I think a lot of conservatives, like John McCain, support our right to have "assault riffles with large magazines" for that simple possibility. They feel like they just are not getting their way in congress, and think it won't be long before the US is like Europe. Many of them want to have the ability to suceed later, or they think that by having an M16 in their home, liberals in Washington will be very afraid of them and think twice about passing laws that are too liberal, or that they can assassinate liberals.

Please discuss whether this is at all feasible. If you can convince them that in modern times the federal government is the ONLY power, and that their punie guns would not help them with any of these, except maybe the third one, then perhaps you can convince them they are not losing any power by giving up their guns. The fed already has all the power, and their best bet is to build another news station that is conservative, than to try using guns.

BTW, a group of skin heads plotted to kill 88 people including Obama. FBI caught them well before hand. My guess is it is impossible to organise a group without the possibility of a member terning the group in.

 

[CCS]

If they had any chance of winning, it would just show Russia how weak we are. Even if the skin heads acted pre-emptively, taking over millitary bases and capitals by surprise and in coordination, they would have to occupy and rule ever state for years, and still be likely to lose soon. And once they went home, the feds would organise again and come get them. They would have to do far more harm and far more control of everyone else to have a chance, which would make them 10X worse than what they were trying to prevent.

All they might feasibly be able to do is pick off 1 or two politians, who would just be replaced by similar politians, by the voters who put the first one in office. Do we want majority rule? or do we want our politicians susceptible to absolutely any one person in the country who does not like them, even if 99% of people do like the politician? With big guns legal, any Timothy Mcvey out there can kill any politician, regardless of whether he is popular. Conservatives should turn in their guns when the time comes, and donate lots of money to Fox News, or start their own stations.

 

[The Gardener]

There are some in California who harbored the same thoughts after the Bush 2 victories... of course they were on the flip side of the issue. I could very easily see a broken up country, and I'm guessing it would entail 4 or maybe 5 individual nations and would have a map kind of like this:

 

[CCS]

Phoenix is conservative or moderate, and Tucson is liberal or moderate.

You really think states would just devide up like that without a civil war? If so, I think that would be the civilized thing to do, and my new question is: Would the M16's of Texas have played a big role in that decision, or do you think there would have been a peaceful split even without the civilian guns?

Unless the 4 countries were close allies, we could expect invasions, or at least Russian and the middle east would know we are not strong or organised enough to ever interfere in their affairs again.

 

[badasshairday III]

Phoenix is conservative or moderate, and Tucson is liberal or moderate.

You really think states would just devide up like that without a civil war? If so, I think that would be the civilized thing to do, and my new question is: Would the M16's of Texas have played a big role in that decision, or do you think there would have been a peaceful split even without the civilian guns?

Unless the 4 countries were close allies, we could expect invasions, or at least Russian and the middle east would know we are not strong or organised enough to ever interfere in their affairs again.

Dude, are you from Texas or Arizona? Or from Texas and went to school in Arizona?

 

[BlahBlah12]

i think conservatives are funny. their panties are so wound up because they think they know exactly what this country needs, yet their the same brains that elected bush not once, but twice.

[EDIT by Cassin no religious talk please] If they want to secede, I would pack their gas guzzling SUV's for them and bid them farewell.

And whats even worse is they dont learn from their mistakes. They still dont realize that their party has been hijacked by fanatics and every single decision made by the party since has been the absolute wrong one for this country as evidenced by history.
Yet they stand firm in their belief that they are steadfastly correct in their decisions and their electoral picks. Every single "liberal" pounced upon in 2000 and 2004 were spit on by conservatives who "knew it all" and had the "correct vision for america" and look at where it got this country. They truly know absolutely nothing about how to keep American hegemony alive or what policies are good for the country.

BTW- McCain? He's a socialist because he disagreed with the bush tax cuts in 2000. Redistribution of wealth is the sleaziest empty campaign slogan of 2008 because it was thought of by the wealthiest in an effort to keep living the life of luxury big tax breaks afforded them.

 

[CCS]

The three of you seem to be backing the statement that the liberals would gladdly let the conservatives seceed, negating the need for them to even have machine guns.

But conservatives worry about the worst possibility: that they would have to fight to the death.

So what if the liberals fought to keep the conservatives from seceeding? How much of a difference do you think these machine guns would make? Now that I think about it again, I think all they would have to do is keep doing life as normal, but just stop paying federal income tax, and maybe beef up their state income tax. And shoot anyone who tries to search their home. They could not be occupied. All the liberals could do is shut down the state capital. But unless the liberals are willing to go door to door, killing anyone who resisted home searches, they could not occupy those states. They could try to garnish wages, but as soon as they posted an office or put a police officer in a company pay roll office, it would just be a matter of time before a gunman came in and shot the occupiers.

Unfortunately, as long as these states have guns, many guns will flow out of them illegally into the unarmed states.

 

[BlahBlah12]

The three of you seem to be backing the statement that the liberals would gladdly let the conservatives seceed, negating the need for them to even have machine guns.

But conservatives worry about the worst possibility: that they would have to fight to the death.

So what if the liberals fought to keep the conservatives from seceeding? How much of a difference do you think these machine guns would make? Now that I think about it again, I think all they would have to do is keep doing life as normal, but just stop paying federal income tax, and maybe beef up their state income tax. And shoot anyone who tries to search their home. They could not be occupied. All the liberals could do is shut down the state capital. But unless the liberals are willing to go door to door, killing anyone who resisted home searches, they could not occupy those states. They could try to garnish wages, but as soon as they posted an office or put a police officer in a company pay roll office, it would just be a matter of time before a gunman came in and shot the occupiers.

Unfortunately, as long as these states have guns, many guns will flow out of them illegally into the unarmed states.

haha are conservatives truly this scared? I just find it funny considering the outrage of smart and educated people when bush was elected and how they were all vindicate by the last 8 years.
why do conservatives still believe they know more than the liberal who was proven right in 2000 and 2004?

Furthermore, these threats by conservatives seceeding are as scary as sean penn threatening to move to canada if bush was reelected

 

[The Gardener]

The three of you seem to be backing the statement that the liberals would gladdly let the conservatives seceed

That would be my wet dream of the century.

 

[Old Baldy]

Oh, come on now you guys, I don't want us to separate for Godsakes!! The mere thought of it makes me shudder.

We're all Americans God Da** it!! unk:

 

[casperz]

This is a pretty good theoretical political question. I don't see it ever happening but I'll
assume that the conservatives get so pissed off that it does.

I would picture a scenario where it starts with demonstrations leading to mass civil un-rest.
Obama takes a hard line and tried to put down these demonstrations and they just grow larger and
larger. The political leaders of Texas and others get involved and ratchet up the rhetoric further
inciting the masses. The military takes a side and the situation spiral out of control. A rouge air force
F16 squadron attacks Washington, killing parts of the leadership. Obama orders air bases destroyed
in Texas and seeing it's use it or lose it airforce squadrons all over the country scramble to keep
aircraft loses to a minimum. Other branches of the military start to mobilize and two ground fronts
open up with the central states against Obama's forces. The airforce flies sorties against ground targets
along these front's destroying bridges and cutting off ground traffic. The United Central States declares
independence and the fight continues for years at a stalemate. A truce is called. Obama suspends elections
and declares that it will be know as the USS, United Socialst States. Both nations are self sufficient, food,
manufacturing and services. The borders are closed and a wall is built to keep cross border guerrillas out.
Families are torn apart, lives destroyed. Obama presides over the USS for 25 years and the UCS elects it's
conservative presidents every four years. The USS sinks into a third world country status as the UCS thrives
regaining the same status as the US had held previously. It is the capitalists headquarters of the world, better
and stronger than the US ever dared to be. Masses flock to the UCS because of plentiful jobs, thriving economy.
Obama is assassinated in office, a broken man running a failed socialist society. A year later the USS proposes a
re-unification of the nations. The UCS declines the offer.

Nah... could never happen like that.

 

[The Gardener]

Oh, come on now you guys, I don't want us to separate for Godsakes!! The mere thought of it makes me shudder.

We're all Americans God Da** it!! unk:

Well, I need to qualify my comments. I have no problems with conservatives per se, heck on many issues I am quite conservative as well. But I would relish an opportunity to break away from the current crop of conservatism that has been bred by the GOP and Fox News... it is the GOP and Fox that are stoking some very serious feelings of wanting to split the US into different nations:

I love to visit the pro-America parts of the country

But conservatives worry about the worst possibility: that they would have to fight to the death

The United Central States declares independence

If you were in my shoes, and hear this from a VP candidate, and from GOP followers, and hear such thoughts repeatedly spoken and encouraged on Fox News, how do you think I would react? Frankly, the Palin comment is unforgivable and dangerous, and will come back to haunt some people.

Now, onto my reply to Casperz' scenario....

The United Central States declares independence and the fight continues for years at a stalemate. A truce is called. Obama suspends elections and declares that it will be know as the USS, United Socialst States.

First off, why do you refer to the coastal states as the "socialist" states? "Socialism", by definition, is a political system where government owns the means of production. In other words, the government owns the companies within the political entity. Given this, why is Obama the socialist? If anything, it are the Republicans who are the socialists, as they are currently, RIGHT NOW, taking EQUITY OWNERSHIP STAKES in a number of banks in order to help bail out the GOP's Wall Street buddies.

The USS sinks into a third world country status as the UCS thrives regaining the same status as the US had held previously. It is the capitalists headquarters of the world, better and stronger than the US ever dared to be.

I see it differently. The Coastal states run a nordic-like economy. It's a bit harder to become super rich, but in exchange for that we have a well-running infrastructure, basic health care, schools that educate children to be rational thinkers, and as a result we have an economy that sees moderate growth.

The Central states run something they call "free market capitalism", but in effect its an "every man for himself" economy for the middle class, who are constantly bilked by having to pay for handouts to the rich. It's easier to get rich, but you need to spend the added money on gated compounds to keep the rabble out. The economy is a boom and bust model, overly burdened by stealth taxes to pay for endless wars to protect the elites' investments overseas, and to countless other forms of corporate welfare (subsidies to farmers, subsidies to export industries, subsidies to banks, etc.) Education ranks last in the G7, and child mortality ranks last in the G7. The worst thing is that the residents of the Central states are brainwashed to think that they are the bastion of free market capitalism, when in effect they have the most rigged economy in the industralized world. Of course, this is never mentioned in the state TV network of the Central states, Fox News. In fact, if you do try to bring up any dissent to the system, to the wars, or to the administration, you are branded as un-patriotic and "socialist"... which is really quite an irony.

 

[JayBear]

I'm a little confused. I was sure that most intelligent people realized that the claims of Obama being a socialist were a last ditch effort of a losing conservative campaign. Is anyone here actually convinced that Obama is a socialist?

 

[The Gardener]

I was sure that most intelligent people realized that the claims of Obama being a socialist were a last ditch effort of a losing conservative campaign. Is anyone here actually convinced that Obama is a socialist?

Thanks to Fox News and the GOP fascists, you have a huge segment of the population who have been dumbed down in the name of patriotism. Fox and the GOP could throw whatever label they want at Obama (terrorist, Al Qaeda sympathizer, wants to make the US an Islamic nation, etc) and a third of the population of this country are foolish enough to believe it at face value.

And when someone tries to speak to these folks and tries to explain why its not true in a rational way, we are labeled "snobby elitists" who are "unpatriotic". I sometimes get the feeling that these ilk believe it is a crime to be intelligent!

 

[BlahBlah12]

This is a pretty good theoretical political question. I don't see it ever happening but I'll
assume that the conservatives get so pissed off that it does.

I would picture a scenario where it starts with demonstrations leading to mass civil un-rest.
Obama takes a hard line and tried to put down these demonstrations and they just grow larger and
larger. The political leaders of Texas and others get involved and ratchet up the rhetoric further
inciting the masses. The military takes a side and the situation spiral out of control. A rouge air force
F16 squadron attacks Washington, killing parts of the leadership. Obama orders air bases destroyed
in Texas and seeing it's use it or lose it airforce squadrons all over the country scramble to keep
aircraft loses to a minimum. Other branches of the military start to mobilize and two ground fronts
open up with the central states against Obama's forces. The airforce flies sorties against ground targets
along these front's destroying bridges and cutting off ground traffic. The United Central States declares
independence and the fight continues for years at a stalemate. A truce is called. Obama suspends elections
and declares that it will be know as the USS, United Socialst States. Both nations are self sufficient, food,
manufacturing and services. The borders are closed and a wall is built to keep cross border guerrillas out.
Families are torn apart, lives destroyed. Obama presides over the USS for 25 years and the UCS elects it's
conservative presidents every four years. The USS sinks into a third world country status as the UCS thrives
regaining the same status as the US had held previously. It is the capitalists headquarters of the world, better
and stronger than the US ever dared to be. Masses flock to the UCS because of plentiful jobs, thriving economy.
Obama is assassinated in office, a broken man running a failed socialist society. A year later the USS proposes a
re-unification of the nations. The UCS declines the offer.

Nah... could never happen like that.

ha wow, i didnt know that some people on here couldnt think for themselves at all...
a "thriving economy" "plentiful jobs" ?!
What WORLD do you conservatives live in? What fairytale are you living in considering the fiscal conservative who was in office for the last 8 years that
1.doubled the countrys debt while producing less oil,
2.enacted energy legislation that left oil prices hitting new highs and the dollar at risk of no longer being used as the reserve currency by taking out provisions that required governments to find new ways of reducing oil demand/force automakers to improve fuel efficiency/and generate more electricity from renewable energy sources,
3.completely miscalculated a war in the middle east leaving OpEC nations to reduce their dollar holdings and leave us twittling our thumbs on how to win a war
4. enacting tax cuts despite cost cost-benefit analysis that proves trickled down economics did not make any of the rest of us better off.

You guys suck up fairytales and reject facts. Worst of all, you dont learn from your mistakes. You are all delusional and you cannot run a country which has been proven by the Bush administration. Non-conservatives, do not argue with these people..they live in a fantasy world.

 

[casperz]

Well first off let me say I'd be embarrassed to be a republican or a conservative.
Hell, these days I'm even embarrassed to be American. But let me also say today's Republican
leaders are not Republicans. I'm not sure what they are but I'm certain they are not Republicans.

Fox News? That is the biggest joke in the world. O'riely and Hannity are no better than the shills
on the other side. And you can get rid of Limbaugh too. I can't imagine a system where idiots like
this rise to such prominence.

There is more than enough blame to go around for both Republicans and Democrats. I sadly submit
that in four years, or eight maybe, we will be no better off regardless of who wins. I see both
parties, Democrat and Republican as failures. Until we as a people, regardless of what we believe,
toss out as many of these idiots as we can we will get what we deserve.

You see I'm a capitalist. I believe in low taxes, freedom and free markets, everything else is secondary.
Do away with seat belt laws and everything else that protects me from myself. Start enforcing our borders. Small
government. Smaller, smarter military. No trying to bring democracy to other country's, we got ours, let them get
theirs. Legalization of soft drugs and prostitution (and fairly tax it). A women's right to choose. Gay marriage...
who are we as a people to deny them. Reward people based on contribution not the color or thier skin or what
language they speak. These are all things that define me. I say let the banks fail, let the people that could not
afford mortgages lose their house. Let the weak fail. Would the market tank?... most likely. Would there be a
worse recession or depression? Yep for sure. But It's the way of freedom and we would all be stronger.
A free America and free markets are what turned a small band of settlers to the greatest nation on earth.
Free markets reward those who take risks and work hard. Socialism rewards those who want a free ride or think
they've been wronged somehow. And there would be opportunity created out of the rubble that would once again
allow us to stand as a proud nation. Now all I see is a pathetic shell with leaders that are whiners and
complainers. Each pointing at the other. Each as disdainful of the other. As I said, I'm embarrassed
to be American.

America needs a leader. A take charge, this is how it is, kind of guy. Eight feet tall, balls of steal. Someone
who says to Iran, you stop developing nuclear weapons or we make you stop. Period. No rhetoric. Someone
who says to congress settle your differences and work for the people. Someone who says to the public, it's
going to be tough but we are going to fix social security and treat our elders right. Someone who is not afraid of
our capitalist system and believes in it and lets the weak fail. Someone who respects his fellow man and does not
have disdain for people who do not agree with him. Someone who unites us as a people. One nation, indivisible.
And a leader who realizes that it cannot be "Under god" for everyone.

Obama my friends is not that man. Neither is McCain. Either is doomed to fail because they have already fallen
into those partisan roles. And America is doomed to fail if changes are not made and made soon. We will be a
third world country, like Russia or worse. A shell of a country, waiting for death.

I worry daily that it may be too late. We have got to stand up and be heard, demand better, better
from our children, better from ourselves, better from our leaders. It's our last chance.

 

[BlahBlah12]

Well first off let me say I'd be embarrassed to be a republican or a conservative.
Hell, these days I'm even embarrassed to be American. But let me also say today's Republican
leaders are not Republicans. I'm not sure what they are but I'm certain they are not Republicans.

Fox News? That is the biggest joke in the world. O'riely and Hannity are no better than the shills
on the other side. And you can get rid of Limbaugh too. I can't imagine a system where idiots like
this rise to such prominence.

There is more than enough blame to go around for both Republicans and Democrats. I sadly submit
that in four years, or eight maybe, we will be no better off regardless of who wins. I see both
parties, Democrat and Republican as failures. Until we as a people, regardless of what we believe,
toss out as many of these idiots as we can we will get what we deserve.

You see I'm a capitalist. I believe in low taxes, freedom and free markets, everything else is secondary.
Do away with seat belt laws and everything else that protects me from myself. Start enforcing our borders. Small
government. Smaller, smarter military. No trying to bring democracy to other country's, we got ours, let them get
theirs. Legalization of soft drugs and prostitution (and fairly tax it). A women's right to choose. Gay marriage...
who are we as a people to deny them. Reward people based on contribution not the color or thier skin or what
language they speak. These are all things that define me. I say let the banks fail, let the people that could not
afford mortgages lose their house. Let the weak fail. Would the market tank?... most likely. Would there be a
worse recession or depression? Yep for sure. But It's the way of freedom and we would all be stronger.
A free America and free markets are what turned a small band of settlers to the greatest nation on earth.
Free markets reward those who take risks and work hard. Socialism rewards those who want a free ride or think
they've been wronged somehow. And there would be opportunity created out of the rubble that would once again
allow us to stand as a proud nation. Now all I see is a pathetic shell with leaders that are whiners and
complainers. Each pointing at the other. Each as disdainful of the other. As I said, I'm embarrassed
to be American.

America needs a leader. A take charge, this is how it is, kind of guy. Eight feet tall, balls of steal. Someone
who says to Iran, you stop developing nuclear weapons or we make you stop. Period. No rhetoric. Someone
who says to congress settle your differences and work for the people. Someone who says to the public, it's
going to be tough but we are going to fix social security and treat our elders right. Someone who is not afraid of
our capitalist system and believes in it and lets the weak fail. Someone who respects his fellow man and does not
have disdain for people who do not agree with him. Someone who unites us as a people. One nation, indivisible.
And a leader who realizes that it cannot be "Under god" for everyone.

Obama my friends is not that man. Neither is McCain. Either is doomed to fail because they have already fallen
into those partisan roles. And America is doomed to fail if changes are not made and made soon. We will be a
third world country, like Russia or worse. A shell of a country, waiting for death.

I worry daily that it may be too late. We have got to stand up and be heard, demand better, better
from our children, better from ourselves, better from our leaders. It's our last chance.

i would like to reply to you, but unfortunately according to new rules i am not allowed to invoke religion into this, however if you read between the lines, you are right..republicans today are NOT republicans and those that are, are far and few in between in comparison to the majority that hijacked your party.

Furthermore, in many of your arguments i would argue to say that you are more of an independent that anything else...Gay marriage, rights to all doesnt seem to high up on the republican's agenda. In fact, I have no idea what the republican party of today even stands for. In 2000, I knew the two forces that were tugging on it when McCain ran against Bush and showed me the difference between a Republican and a....once again, i cannot invoke religion into this. However since then, the ideals of the republican have gone so far off base by people like Jerry Fallwell and Pat Roberts (SURELY I cannot get in trouble for throwing these names out there can I??!!!???) that it is hard to imagine any positive outcome coming from the republican party now that "the base has been energized".

Furthermore, whether you wanna admit it or not, some aspects that you mention such as social security are socialism by nature..as is medicaire and the military. So you cannot avoid this and I do not believe that letting the tax cuts amounts to increased socialism. In fact, I believe its fair. You make more, you contribute more. I dont see what is wrong with this...Surely the guy making a million dollars should not be paying LESS taxes than the guy earning 50k and we expect our economy to rise? we expect consumers to shop more and consume more? Or do we only expect the richest of the rich to keep this country going economically? I just don't get how its justified other than concocted arguments that the rich throw out there to stay rich and keep the poor, poorer. As evidenced by any civilization, such a drastic disrepancy in wealth is far more detrimental to a hegemony than to let the rich pair their fair share.

And in regards to free markets, the invisible hand does not work....how much more proof do you need that people are greedy. Its nice in theory, but like communism, doesnt work when human emotions and drives are put into play. Less regulation was the worst thing that happened to our financial institutions as the more risk these places took, the more the average worker lost. Imagine getting hired by a company and having much of your salary in their stock because their a reputable, well traded company..only to have some bastard CEO take so much risk that the losses are unfathomable and the stock tanks to zero along with your life savings while he gets a million dollar paycheck for ruining lives. Its flawed dude...

 

[Harie]

You know what - I honestly think that unless things in this country change, we just may see a divided United States in my lifetime. People are generally getting more and more extreme to the point of violence when it comes to elections and candidates.

The red states hate the blue states and the blue states hate the red. Where our forefathers were generally united in thier thinking, it seems that now days, we are anything but. It seems that every single election year, the mudslinging gets worse and people's tempers flare even more than they did 4 years prior. We've got people planning to kill Obama if he wins and people hanging Palin manequins on their front porch. I have never seen that in past elections...And I fear that it's only gong to get worse in 2012.

IMO the United States is a powder keg just waiting to errupt. Just waiting for the right set of circumstances where the masses go absolutely crazy.

Perhaps the next great war will not be fought over religion or hostile nations...But in our own back yard over politics and beliefs of what said politics should entail.

 

[The Gardener]

Just as a point of clarification.... I certainly do NOT "hate" the red states. Not at all, I have the utmost respect in the world for them. I've spent significant time with people who adhere to the red state mentality, and frankly these folks are some of the most honorable and decent folks I know.

I think it's more a matter of values. It's not that I hate them, its more that I don't want to live in an oligarchical, over-patriotic, warmongering, wall street-pandering, intolerant, and xenophobic country that is SO self-obsessed with maintaining the myth of being a perfect "city on a hill" by papering over all of our weak spots with BS and making it "unpatriotic" to attempt an honest discussion about our faults. It's not that I think the states, or the people there are bad. Its just that I don't want to live under the same set of "national ethos" that they do.

I'm sorry, red state culture people, but American capitalism is not the best system in the world anymore. Maybe it used to be back in the 1950s, but the wheels have come off. Reagan's attempt to replicate the glory days of the 1950s has only left us with a truckload of debt that we will never be able to pay back, and an economic system that is fallen desperately ill because it is running out of trickery and fraud in the attempt to hide it.

Now I am definitely NOT a socialist... this whole "you must believe in what we believe or you are a socialist" thing is absurd. But, I think we need to do something different here.

 

[Hammy070]

Just as a point of clarification.... I certainly do NOT "hate" the red states. Not at all, I have the utmost respect in the world for them. I've spent significant time with people who adhere to the red state mentality, and frankly these folks are some of the most honorable and decent folks I know.

I think it's more a matter of values. It's not that I hate them, its more that I don't want to live in an oligarchical, over-patriotic, warmongering, wall street-pandering, intolerant, and xenophobic country that is SO self-obsessed with maintaining the myth of being a perfect "city on a hill" by papering over all of our weak spots with BS and making it "unpatriotic" to attempt an honest discussion about our faults. It's not that I think the states, or the people there are bad. Its just that I don't want to live under the same set of "national ethos" that they do.

I'm sorry, red state culture people, but American capitalism is not the best system in the world anymore. Maybe it used to be back in the 1950s, but the wheels have come off. Reagan's attempt to replicate the glory days of the 1950s has only left us with a truckload of debt that we will never be able to pay back, and an economic system that is fallen desperately ill because it is running out of trickery and fraud in the attempt to hide it.

Now I am definitely NOT a socialist... this whole "you must believe in what we believe or you are a socialist" thing is absurd. But, I think we need to do something different here.

Fractional Reserve Banking = impossible mathematically to be a debt free country

Economics evolve after system failures show up, FRB will evolve or be done away with eventually. However, it DID work to an extent, but it's time to move on as I'm sure we all agree.