oral Saw Palmetto study for hairloss

[ColtsFan]

With regards to HairLossTalk.com and his concerns that saw palmetto is totally inaffective for male pattern baldness orally, I came across a study that did show it was effective, and not just for prostate issues.
(hairloss-research.org then see"updates"

I also talked to Susan, head pharmacist at hairlosspharmacy.com, who felt that SP was MORE effective than fiansteride and that was because it covered more bases. She went as far as to say it was a waste of money to take both SP and proscar, that SP (a good standarized version, with nettle, pygeum etc.) was just better.

I mention this because they dont even offer a SP product there, but they do sell proscar/propecia, so she is clearly not trying to sell anything.

 

[Guest]

Ive read people talking about this here very interesting stuff...


[/url]http://www.gettel.net/serenoa/baldness.html

 

[Mr.Detail]

Saw Palmetto dosage?

Does your friend Susan have a recommendation on how many milligrams
of Saw Palmetto to take per day safely?

 

[Guest]

Re: Saw Palmetto dosage?

Does your friend Susan have a recommendation on how many milligrams
of Saw Palmetto to take per day safely?

For what it is worth, I have many years of experience with both SP and finasteride.

In my experience, SP is worthless as a hair loss treatment.

:freaked2:

 

[Administrator]

With regards to HairLossTalk.com and his concerns that saw palmetto is totally inaffective for male pattern baldness orally, I came across a study that did show it was effective, and not just for prostate issues.
(hairloss-research.org then see"updates"

This, once again, over and over we run into people who quote this study... this study was the study publicly labeled as "BUNK" on 20/20 in January 2003 as being a totally improperly run study funded by Geno Marovici, owner of a saw palmetto hair loss treatment product. This study is mentioned in our article on Saw Palmetto <--- click those words. Its not a legit study. It only included 10 people for a period of something like 4 months. Insufficient test group, Insufficient test period, run by a biased party who could have misconstrued any or all of the data, and it was not even published in a recognized dermatological journal. Sorry.

I also talked to Susan, head pharmacist at hairlosspharmacy.com, who felt that SP was MORE effective than fiansteride and that was because it covered more bases.

Respectfully, she is flat out wrong. There is no data to back up her opinion. If there was, we would scream it from a mountaintop.

Many things inhibit DHT and have antiandrogenic effects in the body. That does not necessarily mean it is going to have any effect on the growth or degradation of the hair follicle on the human scalp due to DHT affliction. In light of the fact that nobody has been able to perform a single study showing that it can do this, I think we should be assuming in the other direction. A perfect example? Green Tea can act as a "DHT inhibitor". It cannot however inhibit DHT systemically to the extent that it benefits the health of the hair or inhibits the local production of DHT in the follicle, so as to treat hair loss.

Studies need to be done on the ability of the chemical to inhibit DHT and block androgen receptors *in the follicle* either when taken internally, or when applied topically. The Fatty Acids contained in Revivogen (ALA, GLA, etc.) have undergone such studies and performed well. When applied to skin of mice they effectively inhibited DHT formation and blocked androgen receptor binding in the follicle. This has never been shown for Orally Ingested Saw Palmetto. This is why we always suggest using Propecia instead of Saw Palmetto, and Revivogen instead of Saw Palmetto. If Saw Palmetto has any potential, it would be in a topical application, as it may have some benefit in a locally applied and absorbed liquid, directly onto the follicles. Fortunately, Revivogen contains SP "just in case".

Next!

 

[Administrator]

Re: Saw Palmetto dosage?

Does your friend Susan have a recommendation on how many milligrams of Saw Palmetto to take per day safely?

No, she doesn't. There isn't any data that can tell us how much to take to be effective for hair loss. Why? Nobody's ever shown that it works for hair loss. There is no data.

Sorry guys.

HairLossTalk.com Administrator.

 

[ColtsFan]

then why do all you guys put it (sp) on your head?

 

[ColtsFan]

I got a great idea since none of you guys are chemists or pharmacists, why dont you talk to susan and ask her these questions, I was just relating what she had said. I find it funny that all you guys embrace SP and GLA, laser combs, and hot pepper, and MSM, and larginine, and zinc creams, and on and on and on, but when someone states something to the contrary of Mr all knowing HairLossTalk.com everybody gets there follicles in a bunch.

Oh yea and there is"Bryan" who used Dr P's sh*t for years and still has the same baldspot as he did 5 years ago. He thinks Az. acid is worthless and doesnt take the propecia, which grew 80% of my hair back.

Whatever, sorry for posing an alternate position. Now go back to using your unproven "snake oil err.. Revivocrap... Yea, when are they coming out w/ their studies...waiting still waiting...thats what I thought

 

[Guest]

then why do all you guys put it (sp) on your head?

This has been covered ad naseum. The SP is in a prep. that we like for its other ingredients. Do you suggest we take it out before we put it on our heads?

 

[Guest]

I got a great idea since none of you guys are chemists or pharmacists, why dont you talk to susan and ask her these questions, I was just relating what she had said. I find it funny that all you guys embrace SP and GLA, laser combs, and hot pepper, and MSM, and larginine, and zinc creams, and on and on and on, but when someone states something to the contrary of Mr all knowing HairLossTalk.com everybody gets there follicles in a bunch.

Oh yea and there is"Bryan" who used Dr P's sh*t for years and still has the same baldspot as he did 5 years ago. He thinks Az. acid is worthless and doesnt take the propecia, which grew 80% of my hair back.

Whatever, sorry for posing an alternate position. Now go back to using your unproven "snake oil err.. Revivocrap... Yea, when are they coming out w/ their studies...waiting still waiting...thats what I thought

Dude, you are the one with the knot in your shorts. All we are saying is that there is NO study of any legitamacy that suggests that SP will help in male pattern baldness.. That is not true for many of the ingredients in crinagen and reviv.

And you are free to take whatever you want.

BTW-what does Susan being a pharm. have to do with anything?

 

[ColtsFan]

ok so folligen, crinagen, revivogen, avacor etc, all put SP in there products because of marketing as HairLossTalk.com says. I just need to know why you think its ok and proven to be effective to aply it topically but not orally.

Why does propecia work orally but not topically, why does minoxidil work topiclly but not orally (as effective anyway) and why does SP work topically but not orally?

Revivogen and Folligen have not been approved by the FDA for hair growing capabilities nor have they had any independent studies done, but its ok to laud them as great hair growing compounds but not oral SP?

Revivogen seems like the epitomy of "snake oil" An oily bottle of crap with no fda approval or invivo studies....

It your money though so go for it

 

[Guest]

ok so folligen, crinagen, revivogen, avacor etc, all put SP in there products because of marketing as HairLossTalk.com says. I just need to know why you think its ok and proven to be effective to aply it topically but not orally.

Why does propecia work orally but not topically, why does minoxidil work topiclly but not orally (as effective anyway) and why does SP work topically but not orally?

Revivogen and Folligen have not been approved by the FDA for hair growing capabilities nor have they had any independent studies done, but its ok to laud them as great hair growing compounds but not oral SP?

Revivogen seems like the epitomy of "snake oil" An oily bottle of crap with no fda approval or invivo studies....

It your money though so go for it

You clearly have ADD. We will go slowly.

Finasteride--works orally. The gold standard. Topically, who knows? Use at your own risk.

SP-no one herer says it will work on your scalp, simply that it is in crinagen and other products and WILL DO NO HARM.

Many of us (me) have used SP orally for years and found it worthless. I find it interesting you ignore that. Moreover, when I dropped SP and added finasteride, I regrew my entire crown. Hmm, what does that mean?

And you are free to inject it in your *** if you want. It IS your money.

:freaked:

 

[ColtsFan]

no I dont have ADD but I bet I have more hair than you :lol:

And I am not saying drop the proscar for SP, I am saying that proscar only inhibits 60% of the dht in your body, are you with me?

That me means there is still 40% of your dht in your system that can attack your receptor site. are you still with me?

If I am able to take picture of my crown, keep a check on side effects, and see what happens after 6 months, why do think this should be a problem?

 

[Guest]

no I dont have ADD but I bet I have more hair than you :lol:

And I am not saying drop the proscar for SP, I am saying that proscar only inhibits 60% of the dht in your body, are you with me?

That me means there is still 40% of your dht in your system that can attack your receptor site. are you still with me?

If I am able to take picture of my crown, keep a check on side effects, and see what happens after 6 months, why do think this should be a problem?

Well you might lose that bet on the hair but I am 54 yrs old so we will see how you are doing later on it life.

ON AVERAGE, fiansteride inhibits 60% and for you, who knows?

If you think this is an issue, you could get your DHT levels monitored. However, there is no data that I know of that strongly supports the notion that more DHT suppression is necessarily better for male pattern baldness. In fact, the dosage study on finasteride shows a strong diminishing returns effect of DHT suppression. Suggest you go study that data.

And there is no data to suggest that SP reduces blood levels of DHT, actually to the contrary. Studies of SP for BPH suggest it works another route to shrinking the prostate.

Again, you are free to take anything you want. What we do here is try to make sure other posters are clear on the underlying science as to be mislead.

Personally, I have taken SP for years and it did squat, save the side effects, which were similar to finasteride without the upside.

 

[ColtsFan]

fair enough....

 

[HairlossTalk]

That me means there is still 40% of your dht in your system that can attack your receptor site. are you still with me?

You're forgetting this isn't just about the % of DHT in the system. DHT is produced locally in the scalp. THat is almost assuredly a major cause of hair loss, in comparison to serum DHT. This is why SP may not have performed in any trials. It did not affect locally produced DHT in the scalp. The reason why may be due to insufficient serum inhibition. This is a good question for Bryan to answer...

HairLossTalk.com

 

[HairlossTalk]

I got a great idea since none of you guys are chemists or pharmacists, why dont you talk to susan and ask her these questions, I was just relating what she had said.

Just because someone is licensed to dispense prescription medications doesn't mean they can claim to know something works when there is no data showing it works. It's peculiar to me that Susan claims to know more than the entire scientific community. If she is just making an assumption, which I think is probably what she really is doing, then you should clarify that for us. Or she should.

I find it funny that all you guys embrace SP and GLA, laser combs, and hot pepper, and MSM, and larginine, and zinc creams, and on and on and on, but when someone states something to the contrary of Mr all knowing HairLossTalk.com everybody gets there follicles in a bunch.

You don't need to be rude. I am here to help people. The only thing I am "all knowing" about is the clinical data and scientific information. Anyone can know these things. Not just me. In fact all I ask people to do here is read the data, find the data, and study the facts. Don't listen to me. Listen to the research. I had to correct you on that Saw Palmetto study because you weren't aware of all the facts surrounding it. I allow the data to control my opinion on everything. I have no bias against or for anything.

If new data came out tomorrow saying Propecia is useless and Saw Palmetto is God, you'd hear me screaming that from a mountaintop too. Simple as that.

Whatever, sorry for posing an alternate position.

Since we represent the current understanding of Saw Palmetto based upon the scientific data surrounding it, then I guess "alternate view" means "not interested in the facts, but moreso people who make assumptions based upon opinion". You're welcome to that viewpoint, but I could not sleep at night if I knew I was advising 180,000 users a month based upon opinion. I have to stick to the facts and the data because of the sheer # of people I influence every single month. Im not trying to be a jerk. On the contrary im trying to help.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[HairlossTalk]

By the way, I would listen to Bryan over Susan any day. I can guarantee you that Bryan has more information and facts and study data in the 4 inches beneath that bald spot you sarcastically referred to, than Susan (or you, or I, or Farrel of HLH, or David of Hairsite) have ever fathomed.

HairLossTalk.com