One picture that distills all the scientific truth of hair

[michael barry]

http://www.fusehair.com/Bodyhairtransplant/Inlarge.htm



That is a picture of BLACK BODY HAIR that has been transplanted from the patients body to the scalp. It RETAINS ALL OF ITS INDIVIDUAL CHARACTERISTICS once placed on the scalp. Curl, calibre, color are the same. Hopefully, the growth phase length will elongate and the hair can attain roughly twice its usual length, but this only happens about half the time.

Body hair transplants have been good for one thing: showing that androgenic alopecia is "in the hairs" and not "in the scalp". Hair can grow fine on bald scalp if taken from somewhere else on the same human being.


Here is the info page on body hair transplants (which usually look pretty weak in my opinon because body hair is seldomly as good as head hair in appearance and thickness or size of follicular units), http://fusehair.com/Body%20hair%20transplant.htm

 

[Bryan]

PAGING MR. FOOTE....PAGING MR. FOOTE....PLEASE RESPOND FORTHWITH...

 

[powersam]

as far as i can see it is growing far longer and straighter than most body hair would. what was the timeframe there?

 

[Louie]

Not that isn't intriguing, but what is the point when you can graft hair from the back of your head onto the top of your head?

I would much prefer to have hair from the back of my head up there than hair from any other part of my body.

 

[michael barry]

Louie,

Thats the problem with body hair moved to the head, the characteristics. Men choose to sometimes use body hair up there when they run out of good donor hair in the back or have weak donor hair (like Dick Cheney or Dr. Phil McGraw). It retains its color, curl, and thickness from whence it came. It shows that hair's response to androgens depend on whats inside the hair, and nothing about the scalp. Furthermore, body hair cannot be transplanted very densley or it just wont grow. Dr. John Cole done a density study on the same patient and found that over 30 hairs per centimeter would see yield start falling straight down even into negative territory. If a Doctor plants 70 body hairs in a square centimeter, hardly any will grow. If he plants 30 or less, most of it will grow. Body hairs dont seem to be able to grow very closely and this is likely a signalling issue between them that they carry with them from where they were culled on the body. You see only 1/3 to 1/4 of your body hair is in a growth phase at any one time. If they all grew at once, fairly "hairy" men would look ape-like, so its good that they dont.



Bryan,

If you look at Aderan's animation from their website, http://www.aderansresearch.com/, you can see that they expect no tisssue scaffolds to be necessary for hair growth from injected dermal papilla/epidermal haircell mixtures. Intercytex's phase two trial grew hair on every guy in the trial and one guy got 103% increases in density despite being on no medication. They only injected cells, so tissue scaffolds would not have been created for most those hairs from needles. THe dermal papillas have to dive down in the dermis after injection to initiate a growth phase, so this should "monkey-wrench" the hydraulic theory. The body hair transplant photo (there are many out there if you look on the websites of Dr. Ray Woods, Dr. Arvind Poswal, Dr. Umar, Dr. John Cole, etc.) would just be interpreted by Foote as evidence of a tissue scaffold creatinon by implantation of each and every hair seen in the photos. I think Stephen has kinda retired from the forums. Im "semi"-retired myself. Im still looking for a natural, effective topical anti-androgen that doesn't inhibit angiogenesis with no systemic sides. Im trying beta sis right now. Dont know if I'll ever have luck.

 

[Old Baldy]

http://www.fusehair.com/Bodyhairtransplant/Inlarge.htm



That is a picture of BLACK BODY HAIR that has been transplanted from the patients body to the scalp. It RETAINS ALL OF ITS INDIVIDUAL CHARACTERISTICS once placed on the scalp. Curl, calibre, color are the same. Hopefully, the growth phase length will elongate and the hair can attain roughly twice its usual length, but this only happens about half the time.

Body hair transplants have been good for one thing: showing that androgenic alopecia is "in the hairs" and not "in the scalp". Hair can grow fine on bald scalp if taken from somewhere else on the same human being.


Here is the info page on body hair transplants (which usually look pretty weak in my opinon because body hair is seldomly as good as head hair in appearance and thickness or size of follicular units), http://fusehair.com/Body%20hair%20transplant.htm

Da** Michael, kind of says it all doesn't it?! Thanks for the info.

Also, I'm sorry to say that MORE than 1/4 to 1/3 of my body hair is growing at one time!!

 

[liquidfirex]

Longest body hair ever!

 

[tino]

Louie,

Thats the problem with body hair moved to the head, the characteristics. Men choose to sometimes use body hair up there when they run out of good donor hair in the back or have weak donor hair (like Dick Cheney or Dr. Phil McGraw). It retains its color, curl, and thickness from whence it came. It shows that hair's response to androgens depend on whats inside the hair, and nothing about the scalp. Furthermore, body hair cannot be transplanted very densley or it just wont grow. Dr. John Cole done a density study on the same patient and found that over 30 hairs per centimeter would see yield start falling straight down even into negative territory. If a Doctor plants 70 body hairs in a square centimeter, hardly any will grow. If he plants 30 or less, most of it will grow. Body hairs dont seem to be able to grow very closely and this is likely a signalling issue between them that they carry with them from where they were culled on the body. You see only 1/3 to 1/4 of your body hair is in a growth phase at any one time. If they all grew at once, fairly "hairy" men would look ape-like, so its good that they dont.



Bryan,

If you look at Aderan's animation from their website, http://www.aderansresearch.com/, you can see that they expect no tisssue scaffolds to be necessary for hair growth from injected dermal papilla/epidermal haircell mixtures. Intercytex's phase two trial grew hair on every guy in the trial and one guy got 103% increases in density despite being on no medication. They only injected cells, so tissue scaffolds would not have been created for most those hairs from needles. THe dermal papillas have to dive down in the dermis after injection to initiate a growth phase, so this should "monkey-wrench" the hydraulic theory. The body hair transplant photo (there are many out there if you look on the websites of Dr. Ray Woods, Dr. Arvind Poswal, Dr. Umar, Dr. John Cole, etc.) would just be interpreted by Foote as evidence of a tissue scaffold creatinon by implantation of each and every hair seen in the photos. I think Stephen has kinda retired from the forums. Im "semi"-retired myself. Im still looking for a natural, effective topical anti-androgen that doesn't inhibit angiogenesis with no systemic sides. Im trying beta sis right now. Dont know if I'll ever have luck.

hi michael


citation:. It shows that hair's response to androgens depend on whats inside the hair, and nothing about the scalp

I hope you dont think that i will bother you


I think nonbalding regions of the scalp can respond negative to androgenes too.Somewhere in my head i have a week memory of the full text of the study down.I dont have the study here,so i cant say for sure if they investigated occiptal regiones and the back,or just non balding frontal regiones.I know that for example prolactin can affect non frontal parts negative.I know many women whith pco-s,who report hair loss in non frontal aereas too.But they have more factors than androgenes which induce premature catagen.The regiones eccept the frontal part,are yet more insensitive to androgenes as the rest is.

It is not so that i want to denounce the fact that transplanted hair from the donor aerea is safe for androgenic attack,for a long time.And its not so that i want to denounce the eventuality that androgen inhibition,over a topical antiandrogen for example,can do something good.And i belive also that no fibrosis will occur in scalp parts where resistent follicles are.Fibrosis may only occure there,where the immunsystem detects,that there is no longer need for metabolic activity of the tissue,because the organes in the tissue degenerate.When they have active metabolism,they may send out substances which are antifibrotic.But im not so sure here.Something in my head says that the possibility,that the tissue by oneself can respond to tgf-beta signal too,must be considered.Anyhow,we know that tgf-beta induces Fibrosis of the tissue in scalp skin,AND it inhibits the anagen phase.And its well known that tgf-beta induces fibrosis and inflammation in other organes,and in the tissue of the hands for example.



Hmmm...body hair is actually very resistent.But the hair follicle maturation there developes a little later than the maturation of the scalp hairs.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... xed=google


Why are you so afraid of angiogenes inhibition,which is reported by week prooves?Don t think about it.....a well working Antiandrogen will increase angiogenesis in scalp.Why no chemical antiandrogenes?Why dont you try to solve androcur,or bicalutamide?Have you ever heard about prooven side effects of chemical topical antiandrogenes?

 

[tino]

Re: addition

My hair biological knowledge tells me that it s possible that metabolic active follicles can send out hormones like the antifibrotic alpha-msh to the tissue around...for example.I take it into consideration.

But i have no proove for that...do you,or someone else have something?

 

[Armando Jose]

Hi Tino:

The study you pointed out is very enlightening, it is recent, 2006:

Effect of 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone and testosterone on apoptosis in human dermal papilla cells.
These data suggest that DPC from nonbalding scalp regions do have the capacity to undergo apoptosis, but need a high androgen stimulus. The present study provides an interesting new pathogenetic approach in androgenetic alopecia.

Other thing is that people don't want incorporated it to his knowledege of hair biology.

Armando

 

[michael barry]

Fibrosis may only occure there,where the immunsystem detects,that there is no longer need for metabolic activity of the tissue,because the organes in the tissue degenerate.When they have active metabolism,they may send out substances which are antifibrotic.But im not so sure here.Something in my head says that the possibility,that the tissue by oneself can respond to tgf-beta signal too,must be considered.Anyhow,we know that tgf-beta induces Fibrosis of the tissue in scalp skin,AND it inhibits the anagen phase.And its well known that tgf-beta induces fibrosis and inflammation in other organes,and in the tissue of the hands for example.

Two observations.

1). Kevin McElwee has stated that healthy hairs can secrete enzymes that eat their way through collagenous deposition. Ive seen folks take issue with that, however transplanted hairs grow well for decades in 'unfriendly' collagenous fibrotic scalp like this, http://www.drvogelplasticsurgeon.com/bna/hair_08.html.

Here is a picture of a man who had "plugs" back in the early 80's, http://www.drvogelplasticsurgeon.com/bna/hair_08.html , and his "after" picture after a "repair" procedure in the early 00's. As you can see, he went bald all around the "plugs", but the plugs stayed there and greyed at the same rate that his "donor" hair greyed in the back. You can see when he had more transplants put in, they look exactly like the "plug" hair (that has been redistributed around the front also after being take out and broken up into smaller units).

I find this picture, http://www.drvogelplasticsurgeon.com/bn ... duce3.html , to be EXTREMELY instructive as it shows you miniturizing hair right beside old plugs done a long time before hand (probably at least a decade earlier).

Near the end of this page (scroll down), http://www.drvogelplasticsurgeon.com/html/hair.html , you can see many pictures of "repair" photos where men who had transplants done in the eighties and early nineties got them fixed in the early or middle years of this decade. The old plug hairs grow just fine as the native hair around them falls right out. Even though they are in "balding scalp", they persevere extremely well and behave just like the hair in the back. If the hair in the back didnt grey over the last 20 years or so, the transplanted hair doesn't grey either. Its really impressive.











2). You mention the immuno attack and tgf-beta and fibrosis. This is precisely what I think happens. What is causing the attack? I have an "idea" formulated in my head around DKK-1. DKK-1 was shown to actually cause keratinocyte apoptosis (cell death) in experiments. So in the balding scalp, the keratinocytes are literally dying in the body, and then probably being carried out of the body by the growing keratin hair shaft when they break loose from the other living keratinocyte cells. We know for a fact that the first inflammation seen in androgenic alopecia is at the infidulum, or the opening in the skin where the hair exits the dermis. Why would the immune system "inflame" this area with oxides, inflammatory cytokines, etc.? I think its quite possible because it detects the dead kertinocyte cells and sees them as a foreign invader in the body. If you think about it, it makes perfect sense that the body would seek to encase the offending 'body" (in this case the hair follicle) in collagen and attempt to inhibit blood vessel formation to that body in ensuing hair cycles. Its just a "Fuzzy idea" I have based on the first inflammation being around the infidulum. Ive no way to prove it or anything, but its a hypothetical suggestion.


I think the loss of the layer of fat tissue in the frontal scalp is due to the immunological happenings attacking the miniaturizing hairs over time and the fibrosis process after excess collagen is deposited there for years. The scalp becomes more like the forehead, yet the transplants show it can still support healthy follicles when transplanted from the back of the head, or even the body. We know that the transplants last as long as the hair in the back of the head lasts in its native location (usually all of one's life).

 

[Armando Jose]

Although fibrosis play a role in common baldness, in my opinion it is not the real cause or the first event. Maybe the last one.

Interesting Michael wrote:
"We know for a fact that the first inflammation seen in androgenic alopecia is at the infidulum, or the opening in the skin where the hair exits the dermis"
infidulum? is this area next at the duct of sebaceous gland where sebum flow in all directions?

The first event near SG, is it so?

I´m wondering why Mr. Barry atacks with great courage my theory.

have a nice day

Armando

 

[michael barry]

20 year old plugs Armando, still growin' as strong as ever, http://www.drvogelplasticsurgeon.com/bna/hair_08.html

 

[Armando Jose]

Hi Michael;

with the all due respects. In this case:
"This patient also had a hair transplant many years ago with the older technique of plugs. He was so unhappy with the result of the transplant that he shaved the grafts down and wore a hair piece to cover them. He underwent two sessions to correct the plugs and no longer wears the hair piece.

Then I suposse that shaved old plug are in contact with a wig all the time (as absorbent surface) and at first years after surgey (before wig) this man would wear the old plugs larger, not shaved.

This is a not contradictory to my theory.

best regards

Armando

 

[tino]

2). You mention the immuno attack and tgf-beta and fibrosis. This is precisely what I think happens. What is causing the attack? I have an "idea" formulated in my head around DKK-1. DKK-1 was shown to actually cause keratinocyte apoptosis (cell death) in experiments. So in the balding scalp, the keratinocytes are literally dying in the body, and then probably being carried out of the body by the growing keratin hair shaft when they break loose from the other living keratinocyte cells. We know for a fact that the first inflammation seen in androgenic alopecia is at the infidulum, or the opening in the skin where the hair exits the dermis. Why would the immune system "inflame" this area with oxides, inflammatory cytokines, etc.? I think its quite possible because it detects the dead kertinocyte cells and sees them as a foreign invader in the body. If you think about it, it makes perfect sense that the body would seek to encase the offending 'body" (in this case the hair follicle) in collagen and attempt to inhibit blood vessel formation to that body in ensuing hair cycles. Its just a "Fuzzy idea" I have based on the first inflammation being around the infidulum. Ive no way to prove it or anything, but its a hypothetical suggestion.

Indeed a very interesting theory,which is worth further investigation.Such a reaction would make quintessentially sense.

This Doctor does not write about his idea concerning the Enzymes which may work antifibrotic.If we could find out which enzymes do work fibrosis reform,than this were a milestone for medicine in general.I know that the melanocyte stimmulating alpha-MSH works antifibrotic,but its not clear if it can just stopp further fibrosis,or reform fibrosis.Alpha MSH is produced in the hair follicle even.Dr Boehm published some articles about alpha-MSH in Dermatologie and Fibrosis.


Grey hair seemes to be resistant in general.People who start to get grey in very early years,wont develope male pattern baldness.This is maybe so because melanin can interact bad whith oxidative stress,and greyed hairs come out of follicles which have no more melanin production.

 

[Pete]

Fibrosis may only occure there,where the immunsystem detects,that there is no longer need for metabolic activity of the tissue,because the organes in the tissue degenerate.When they have active metabolism,they may send out substances which are antifibrotic.But im not so sure here.Something in my head says that the possibility,that the tissue by oneself can respond to tgf-beta signal too,must be considered.Anyhow,we know that tgf-beta induces Fibrosis of the tissue in scalp skin,AND it inhibits the anagen phase.And its well known that tgf-beta induces fibrosis and inflammation in other organes,and in the tissue of the hands for example.

Two observations.

1). Kevin McElwee has stated that healthy hairs can secrete enzymes that eat their way through collagenous deposition. Ive seen folks take issue with that, however transplanted hairs grow well for decades in 'unfriendly' collagenous fibrotic scalp like this, http://www.drvogelplasticsurgeon.com/bna/hair_08.html.

Here is a picture of a man who had "plugs" back in the early 80's, http://www.drvogelplasticsurgeon.com/bna/hair_08.html , and his "after" picture after a "repair" procedure in the early 00's. As you can see, he went bald all around the "plugs", but the plugs stayed there and greyed at the same rate that his "donor" hair greyed in the back. You can see when he had more transplants put in, they look exactly like the "plug" hair (that has been redistributed around the front also after being take out and broken up into smaller units).

I find this picture, http://www.drvogelplasticsurgeon.com/bn ... duce3.html , to be EXTREMELY instructive as it shows you miniturizing hair right beside old plugs done a long time before hand (probably at least a decade earlier).

Near the end of this page (scroll down), http://www.drvogelplasticsurgeon.com/html/hair.html , you can see many pictures of "repair" photos where men who had transplants done in the eighties and early nineties got them fixed in the early or middle years of this decade. The old plug hairs grow just fine as the native hair around them falls right out. Even though they are in "balding scalp", they persevere extremely well and behave just like the hair in the back. If the hair in the back didnt grey over the last 20 years or so, the transplanted hair doesn't grey either. Its really impressive.











2). You mention the immuno attack and tgf-beta and fibrosis. This is precisely what I think happens. What is causing the attack? I have an "idea" formulated in my head around DKK-1. DKK-1 was shown to actually cause keratinocyte apoptosis (cell death) in experiments. So in the balding scalp, the keratinocytes are literally dying in the body, and then probably being carried out of the body by the growing keratin hair shaft when they break loose from the other living keratinocyte cells. We know for a fact that the first inflammation seen in androgenic alopecia is at the infidulum, or the opening in the skin where the hair exits the dermis. Why would the immune system "inflame" this area with oxides, inflammatory cytokines, etc.? I think its quite possible because it detects the dead kertinocyte cells and sees them as a foreign invader in the body. If you think about it, it makes perfect sense that the body would seek to encase the offending 'body" (in this case the hair follicle) in collagen and attempt to inhibit blood vessel formation to that body in ensuing hair cycles. Its just a "Fuzzy idea" I have based on the first inflammation being around the infidulum. Ive no way to prove it or anything, but its a hypothetical suggestion.


I think the loss of the layer of fat tissue in the frontal scalp is due to the immunological happenings attacking the miniaturizing hairs over time and the fibrosis process after excess collagen is deposited there for years. The scalp becomes more like the forehead, yet the transplants show it can still support healthy follicles when transplanted from the back of the head, or even the body. We know that the transplants last as long as the hair in the back of the head lasts in its native location (usually all of one's life).

Well done on your ideas.
When we come across a solution that can reverse Alopecia, another inflammatory condition - I think it will provide useful clues to hleping to reverse male pattern baldness.





Regards
Pete

 

[michael barry]

Armando,

Do you realize that what you are implying is that wearing a wig will protect one from baldness? If you were "right", then the guys you see wearing bandanas around their heads all the time would never lose their hair I suppose, and one should wear a tobaggan or something to bed. I dont agree with that, but its a logical extension of your idea.





On the DKK-1, believe it or not caffeine is supposed to "bind" the stuff. Its known that DKK-1 inhibits wnt-signaling also, which is a factor in wound-healing and hair neo-genesis in new experiments on hairless mice (Costarialis and Stenn).
The inhibitors secreted by the papilla that I know of are FGF-5, thrombospondin, tgf-beta(s), DKK-1, PKC, and I think one other that I cannot remember at the moment. I wonder which one of these attracts the immunological respone or is it another yet discovered dermal papillla-mediated chemical?

 

[Armando Jose]

Armando,

Do you realize that what you are implying is that wearing a wig will protect one from baldness? If you were "right", then the guys you see wearing bandanas around their heads all the time would never lose their hair I suppose, and one should wear a tobaggan or something to bed. I dont agree with that, but its a logical extension of your idea.

According to my theory wearing a bandana could act as preventive, but not restorative.(Intim hair contact)
OTOH women with a lot of perms, can develop common baldness, because her hairs are more independent.

Armando

 

[cal]

Armando, Tino,

Can you guys spell out exactly what evidence WOULD make you side with Michael Barry on this stuff? Just theoretically imagine some specific piece of evidence that would slam the door shut on the idea that genetics aren't 100% of male pattern baldness's cause and then at least 80-90% of the progression rate & pattern.

What, thoeretically, would it take to convince you? What specific study or finding?

 

[Armando Jose]

Hi cal;

native american with short hair, different at his ancients. ¿Do you see receding lines?
http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/daily ... life_b.jpg

http://www.naturodoc.com/library/kevis/ ... c_info.htm
Angle of Follicles and Sebum Build-up . This angle is different with the lenght of scal hair.


If yo read spanish, in this post there is a lot of discussion about it:
http://foro.ganarpelo.org/viewtopic.php?t=6249
Also with the dinamic model of common alopecia
http://foro.ganarpelo.org/viewtopic.php?t=8737

Interesting photo, woman with receding lines
http://foro.ganarpelo.org/viewtopic.php ... tach&id=72

Armando