「not Lllt」'real' 'actual' Laser To Induce Woundhealing - The Better Dermaroller?

[HairCook]

Hi, together. I wanna cut on a topic which has been discussed in like 2014 but has been widely ignored since then.

In before let me say, this is not about low-light laser therapy, so it is not about the lasercombs or helmets you can buy. It is more about a laser for hair removal but weaker than that.

I wann start with swisstemples experience of a chinese guys product:

Some time in early 2014 I stumbled upon a chinese forum where a guy was showing pictures of remarkable hair regrowth. He even had it patented. This would later be the same guy who got to be known as Liu Xuewu on several public forums where he offered his product to trialists for free. Before that however I had already started to copy his patent. The active chemical chlorine dioxide wasn’t hard to get since it’s popular in some questionable alternative medicine circles, despite being a pretty harsh chemical and not very healthy. In simplified theory: The CD would damage the skin chemically to trigger a stem cell reaction. I had nothing to lose and tried it.
The damage was no joke, it literally ate my skin and caused scabs. It also bleached and chemically damaged the hairline in my temples and caused it to shed. For that reason I kept silent on what exactly it is I’m using as I didn’t want others to risk this toxic stuff for no reason. After a few days I was ready to give up as the damage became too much. Yet a week after stopping it I would feel stubble in my temples. It felt almost like a beard. I rushed to my mirror and there it was, little black dots all over my bald temples that didn’t have hair for almost 9 years by now. And I could feel hairs growing out of them, thick terminal hairs. I started using the CD again, reported on ******** about my miraculous growth and said I would reveal what I’m using soon. For some reason that stubble never made it more than 2mm in length and would fall out again no matter what I tried. After several months I knew I wasn’t getting anywhere. I kept putting this toxic sh*t on my head that hurt my skin and only seemed to produce temporary 2mm stubble. I gave up, revealed that it was chlorine dioxide and threw the stuff into the trash. Source

The chinese guy appeared on multiple hairloss forums (baldtruth, hairlosshelp). I believe this topic was deleted here if I remember correctly due to toxity of CD. People got the product even for free from the chinese guy, others tried to rebuild it. Now, the result were not that amazing, thats because a) it is too toxic b) it bleaches your hair c) it seems to destroy terminals d) the regained hair seems actually to be killed afterwards by the overstimulation.

So, why would I post this? CD shows us the true potential of wounding induced stemcell stimulation. In fact, what the chinese guy claimed was a result in five days, which is congruent to what Swiss reported in his story. My hypothes is, that one massive regrowth tool is hidden between dermaroller/dermapen/dermastamp and chlorine dioxide. Together with other angles combined like prostaglandin and dht control + further progenitor cell stimulation this actually might even be for some of us the cure.

People who still doubt and still do not know this one / forgot about it may check out this regeneration power of a 78 year old man: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1351889/pdf/bmjcred00266-0059b.pdf

Firstly I wanna start with the wounding process. Previous studies did show that human wounding process compared to the wounding process of a mice lacks FGF-9. This turned into a korean topical called cellcurin which is supposed to be used in combination with wounding. (research paper of cellcurin)

Some might wonder if FGFs are that important. FGFs seems to be very important for the control of chronic inflammation and fibrosis, exactly what Androgenetic Alopecia makes kill your hair: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22076327

As a side note: Applying PGE2 to your scalp is very likely to help in the wounding process as well, as FGF9 is build over Ep3 of PGE2. Castor Oil is also an analogue of this, though there are still question marks of how deeply it works as such topically applied with its penetration issues.

Another paper which nicely shows the wounding process being connected also to the wnt-pathway is a hair plucking study. It also shows again that TNF-A is also important to induce hair follicle neogenesis during the wound healing process. This might also explain the diclofenac results, as NSAIDS increase TNF-A as well as decrease PGD2 (cox) (sadly also PGE2 which sheds some light on why it only works for few individuals).

-----------------------------------Laser as a Wounding Method-----------------------------------------------------------------

Laser is actually able to induce FGF-9 in its wounding process. Laser as wounding method had a short attempt of discussion here on baldtruthtaIk, obviously most people probably did not even click it cause they associate laser immediately with laser combs. In the starting post of the thread you find another interesting research paper from 2015 bringing up that laser might not just be able to be used for hair removal but also to induce hair growth, as the conclusion states:

Ablative fractional lasers appear to be effective for inducing hair regrowth via activation of the Wnt/β-catenin pathway in vivo. Our findings indicate that fractional laser treatment can potentially be developed as new treatment options for stimulating hair regrowth.

Further finding from research highlights in that thread:

These first lasers allowed the physician more precision than was previously available with older dermabrasion and chemical peeling techniques.

The nonablative laser has been shown to dramatically and safely improve inflammatory facial acne by partially damaging sebaceous glands to reduce sebum secretions

Short: It might be better wounding than anything else + sebum reduction it also tackles the inflammation issue.

Now, there are hair removal lasers for home use. They hurt, you can find woman discuss about using numb cream or not (it seems to be actually quit tideous to get the hair removed so they dont want anything inbetween if possible).

We are in a forum with all kind of people with differing know-how. No on is safe of Androgenetic Alopecia.
So, I hope that someone with technical knowlege might also have an approach to utilize a hair removal laser for hair growth induction.

Additionally, if you google, you find many people claiming that hair removal is a scam and even led to more growth. You actually dont even need to do so, you find one already in the baldtruth thread I linked who even tried to sue his Doctor.

Thanks to anyone taking their time to read this, and let me apologize for my poor english. I just saw this being ignored for so long, I know it is just theory but there are these cases which make it seems to have so much potential beyond any snake oil. I also believe we need this as a home solution, as professional will just be to expensive to a person with normal income, we really do not need more of things like PRP.

 

[ElTioLaBota]

Everytime i read posts like this i believe even more that the cure to hairloss will come from a forum user than from any company. They all care about money

On the other hand, we bald ppl, we are facing another reality, we ara fighting hairloss not cause we wna tot have hair and rock whatever hairstyle is approved at this time in such a boid society, but because our own survival instinct tells us to do so. If we want our genes to sirvive we need hair to do so.
Thats what will drive us to test whatever the f*** seems legit to get our hair back.

Just kidding, nice post bro

 

[HairCook]

Everytime i read posts like this i believe even more that the cure to hairloss will come from a forum user than from any company. They all care about money

On the other hand, we bald ppl, we are facing another reality, we ara fighting hairloss not cause we wna tot have hair and rock whatever hairstyle is approved at this time in such a boid society, but because our own survival instinct tells us to do so. If we want our genes to sirvive we need hair to do so.
Thats what will drive us to test whatever the f*** seems legit to get our hair back.

Just kidding, nice post bro

Thanks man. Most of knowledge is also just rotating in the forums. Sadly forums seem to have a short memory. Ive seen no one using Vit C/L-threonate as topical so far here even though Dkk1 is such an old story.

Well, that chinese guy also did just some solo research and most companies/institutes also just revolve around one brain/mastermind.

So who knows

Some of the laser research is still rather fresh if one considers pgd2 was 2012 and we still have not crth2 inhibitor freely available x.x

Would be pretty sick if someone had a technical solution for the laser.

 

[HairCook]

Also would be cool if you got bio engineers or something related in your family/friend circle and could ask them

 

[kawnshawn]

I don't follow Follica that much but they are doing the same thing to an extent. For the wounding portion you got to go to a dermatologist who than uses a laser on your head for wounding.

 

[HairCook]

I don't follow Follica that much but they are doing the same thing to an extent. For the wounding portion you got to go to a dermatologist who than uses a laser on your head for wounding.

Hmm, where is that? I find them doing some professional microneedling and LLLT but couldnt find any information about laser.

Anyways, hope if so there are some @home-use devices inc. I noticed there are also already fractional lasers for anti-aging around. Though the stuff still looks fairly fresh for home use... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28741866

We need some smart guy here knowing this stuff for a workaround.

I am pretty sure that these homelaser are a) not that potent (they hurt and do their job though), b) have a protection mechanism that lets them not being activated outside of contact. So we would basically just need to weaken it, for example by keeping some distance and tricking that protection mechanism (with proper saftey measurement). The goal should be reachable or not? Goal of the laser: destroy hf. If hair removals laser is weakened, then damage with a woundhealing process is induced instead. - This was my first though with having no clue about the technology at least...

 

[OFXMBLD]

Finding some theoretical Goldilocks zone where you're doing enough damage but not killing the hair follicle is certainly not something I would want to experiment with on my own scalp.

 

[HairCook]

Finding some theoretical Goldilocks zone where you're doing enough damage but not killing the hair follicle is certainly not something I would want to experiment with on my own scalp.

Yep, I had hope for a DIY solution that some balding expert might appear hear and help with it. Otherwise this thread is just an open research thread. If you got spots in your temples empty for years, thats the spot to test with. This is about neogenesis after all. You wanna do something to regrow and then get off it/focus just on maintenance.

Considering the variety of home lasers being out there(antiaging, hair removal...), I doubt it would be that unimaginable to get a solution for us baldies as well.

 

[Jk1]

Rf microneedling seem like closest thing already in existance see other thread that may be as good as dermaroller without skin damages issues etc

 

[Trichosan]

One of the things touted by these lasers is stimulation of collagen production, but such an accumulation of collagen would be counterproductive for the high biologic factors necessary for follicle production, no?

 

[HairCook]

One of the things touted by these lasers is stimulation of collagen production, but such an accumulation of collagen would be counterproductive for the high biologic factors necessary for follicle production, no?

Not sure. Fibrosis is bad. We might actually have to adress tgf-b1&2 which are responsible to scarring during wound healing.

Rf microneedling seem like closest thing already in existance see other thread that may be as good as dermaroller without skin damages issues etc

Maybe 1.5mm is a joke rather than the technology, and we gotta knock with 3mm on the subcutis, where the anagen lays btw. See my thoughts to ths here: https://imgur.com/a/ATqS6

Dermaroller at long depth is terrible either way, it must always be a pen/stamp. It is also more difficult to desinfect, unnecessary risk.

 

[furrydome]

See my thoughts to ths here: https://imgur.com/a/ATqS6

That's an excellent writeup. Do you have time to make it into a thread here, so we can discuss more directly?

 

[HairCook]

That's an excellent writeup. Do you have time to make it into a thread here, so we can discuss more directly?

I was thinking of making one originally. However I am not sure if people want to discuss this.

1) It is theoretical or just a thought of why certain anecdotal individuals made the neogenesis happen even though the human skin lacks gamma t cells to produce significant fgf9.
2) Mods might see risk of people doing this without proper measures.
3) 3mm is going to be a bloody mess from what I read. There is no such thing anymore as 'dont press too hard and youll wont bleed'

If you wanna make a thread out of feel free, I will participate for sure.

 

[HairCook]

Also forgot to mention in the comment before, we also have to take care of the pgd2 receptor at least during the wounding process as it seems to hinder neogenesis as well:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022202X15361753

Here is a study originally posted in some other thread about finasteride decreasing tgf-b: http://www.anagen.net/p24.htm
Maybe add taurine topically. That private forum mod back then wrote that a lot of people were using it topically as well. (im ofc not sure how it looks now)

Also L-Carntine-Lithium(important)-Tartrate reduces TGF-B2:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17927577

Considering finasteride works barely backwards, this might be another indicator for this. However this fibrosis + calcification or whatever theory has been around for eternity. Maybe the wounding was wrong and no one bother trying higher depths + tgf-b approach + full pg protocoll (in its core at least), I know it is tons of stuff - but I doubt a diy solution of an unsolved medical issue is going to be that simple.

So this would fall under the wounding angle (swisstemples introduced four angles-shotgun approach) just improved with higher depth and anti-fibrotic-scarring tools,

 

[Aliens]

I was thinking of making one originally. However I am not sure if people want to discuss this.

1) It is theoretical or just a thought of why certain anecdotal individuals made the neogenesis happen even though the human skin lacks gamma t cells to produce significant fgf9.
2) Mods might see risk of people doing this without proper measures.
3) 3mm is going to be a bloody mess from what I read. There is no such thing anymore as 'dont press too hard and youll wont bleed'

If you wanna make a thread out of feel free, I will participate for sure.

Your post was very interesting. I might try this 3 mm thing if I find a dermastamp with this length

 

[furrydome]

Also forgot to mention in the comment before, we also have to take care of the pgd2 receptor at least during the wounding process as it seems to hinder neogenesis as well:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022202X15361753

There's been a lot of focus on neogenesis, but what about enhanced growth of existing follicles?

Just from my own experience, it didn't seem like any new follicles appeared, more like existing dormant ones started to grow again slowly. There definitely weren't any sudden new terminals.

I wonder if there are multiple angles to the whole wounding thing:

1. Growth stimulation from just rough, non-precise wounding. Maybe because of
   1. Growth factors released during the healing process
   2. Break-up of fibrotic tissue that was slowing down growth in the first place
2. Neogenesis if you do it exactly right, like the campfire man. Supposedly what Follica has figured out.

Also article where I found campfire man pic

 

[Jonnyyy]

There's been a lot of focus on neogenesis, but what about enhanced growth of existing follicles?

Just from my own experience, it didn't seem like any new follicles appeared, more like existing dormant ones started to grow again slowly. There definitely weren't any sudden new terminals.

I wonder if there are multiple angles to the whole wounding thing:

1. Growth stimulation from just rough, non-precise wounding. Maybe because of
   1. Growth factors released during the healing process
   2. Break-up of fibrotic tissue that was slowing down growth in the first place
2. Neogenesis if you do it exactly right, like the campfire man. Supposedly what Follica has figured out.

Also article where I found campfire man pic

Dang I hope we can do better than campfire man, I know that it's still amazing regrowth, but if you're a Norwood 5+ and all you can get is some hairs like this then damn we're out of luck. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like Follica will just be good if you already have existing hair and just want that Brad Pitt density, but you won't get there from Vin Diesel hairline.

 

[OFXMBLD]

Yep, I had hope for a DIY solution that some balding expert might appear hear and help with it. Otherwise this thread is just an open research thread. If you got spots in your temples empty for years, thats the spot to test with. This is about neogenesis after all. You wanna do something to regrow and then get off it/focus just on maintenance.

Considering the variety of home lasers being out there(antiaging, hair removal...), I doubt it would be that unimaginable to get a solution for us baldies as well.

I'm optimistic about lasers in general, and I had designed and prototyped a USB powered laser helmet, as well as some lasers for minor surgery (thermal ablation and photochemical). It all depends on what you're targeting, getting the right wavelength and power density.

The problem is, if it can work at all, it would probably require a lot of time consuming experimentation to get the right amount of damage to the right places without destroying the hair follicle itself, which is much more sensitive to lasers in the wavelength that penetrates into the dermis compared to the surrounding tissue.

Hair removal works by targeting the dark pigment in the hair follicle with lasers between 600-1100nm. Higher wavelengths generally penetrate deeper. Hair removal is actually kind of easy because a side effect of lasers that can penetrate tissue that deep is also that most of the energy tends to get absorbed by darkest things around, which is the melanin in the follicle/hair shaft. Since melanin is also in the epidermis that's why laser hair removal doesn't work so well with people who have dark skin.

To illustrate the problem, a violet laser is going to target the surrounding tissue instead of just the follicle, sounds great if some light tissue toasting is what you want, except in order to get enough energy to your dermis a violet laser would first burn right through your epidermis. Toasty indeed. Of course, you could try to get deeper damage through a photochemical reaction, where you first sensitize the targeted cells with a photo sensitizer. This a really useful technique when dealing with cancer and it's an area of current research.

You could use the same wavelength as a hair removal laser with less power, just keep in mind that the vast amount of energy going to be absorbed by any follicles you have left, and you risk progressively damaging them with repeated lasing.

I would actually go with something around 535nm range, hemoglobin absorption peaks around there and you'll get about 20% into the dermis. You could definitely get neogenesis of some kind, and there is less chance of damaging the follicles. That said, I wouldn't put my money on getting any growth. I think we need to find a chemical route. Praying the Wnt/β-catenin pathway is activated enough to cause some regrowth through injury is too much like self flagellation, and going bald is depressing enough as it is.

 

[TurboFixer]

did anything come of this