Nizoral 1% only regrows as much as minoxidil 2% 1x per day

[CCS]

Had it been the minoxidil 2% 2x a day, I would have been right, but it was only 1x per day. Bryan just told me.





So stop sneezing at it like it is a small part of the Big 3.

I did not say it is BETTER. Just that it regrew more hair in the 6 month trials. We know dutasteride slows male pattern baldness, and minoxidil does not, but maybe Nizoral also slows male pattern baldness.

Here is my reasoning:

dutasteride < 2% min = nizoral

Sources:

There were 3 independent studies with nizoral. One compared it to other anti-dandruff shampoos and recorded hair counts. Another compared it to 2% minoxidil and placebo (studies love usually compare stuff to minoxidil. even the tricomin study had a 2% minoxidil group. I don't remember the 3rd one, but Bryan mentioned it. The nizoral 1% and 2% both regrew the same amount of hair as the 2% minoxidil, and had the same effect on hair diameter in that study, and the results were statistically similar to other minoxidil studies.

There have been numerous studies with minoxidil at various concenrations over the years. They show that in 6 months, 2% minoxidil regrows a certain number of hairs (varies by study, and some are just 1 year studies whose results must be cut in half for comparison). The regrowth numbers are consistently higher than the 100 hairs that dutasteride regrew. I think at all of them said the 2% minoxidil regrew at least 120 hairs, with some 5% studies going over 200.




I can vouch from my own experience with Minoxidil and Propecia that while Propecia maintained my hair for 4 years, only minoxidil gave me dramatic results after 2 months that went away when I got off and came back again when I got off again. I stopped only because of the greasy hassel.




------------------------------------

I never had side effects at any dose, but that is not why.

Yes it is more effective, but the effectiveness should be judged by the difference in hair counts between trial subjects and THE PLACEBO group, not baseline, and certainly not just on the amount of DHT reduction. If you compare it to the placebo group, it is not a lot stronger than finasteride.

5ar does not just turn testosterone into DHT. It also converts other hormones. 5ar1 is in the brain, and dutasteride, but not finasteride, can partially inhibit that.

Most people don't get side effects, myself included, but I know from putting Andractim (DHT gel) on my penis that DHT causes erections. So if you have impotence, maybe your penis is barely making enough DHT even without the finasteride/dutasteride and the pill pushes you over the edge. DHT is not all bad. It stimulates nerves and is the androgenic signal in most tissues.

Avodart is expensive, unless you buy it over seas. With finasterides shallow dose effectiveness curve, I buy Proscar 5mg from my pharmacy in the States for $85, then cut in 1/4's, then take every other day, for $10 per month.

If you really want a strong regimen, you need to go topical. Using a topical every day can be annoying and hard to follow, which is why I use shampoos. If you want proven stuff, buy Nizoral 1%, and a piroctone olamine shampoo and alternate. Tricomin, Eucapil and Rogain Foam are proven and dry fast for convenience, but are expensive. This is why I make my own topicals:

My regimen is built around easy, minimal mess, cheapness, and proven stuff, with experimentals not replacing or interfering with proven stuff. You need an internal like finasteride or dutasteride as the corner stone. So do not mix experimental stuff into your Revivogen bottle or Nizoral bottle or minoxidili bottle. use these separately.

GTE is cheap and will not damage your normal cheap shampoo. Why not put 2g of GTE in your shampoo? Add a little bit of water or alcohol if needed. I doubt the GTE will break down in a gentle shampoo. I also advise adding apple poly. In a separate cheap shampoo, you can add a little of that fake lemon juice, then grind up 2g of spironolactone (20 100mg pills) and put them in that shampoo. Then you have two experimental shampoos to rotate with your nizoral.

I also recommend Revivogen, and don't think you have to use it every day if you are using finasteride or dutasteride. Just try to use it 3x per week or so when it won't interfer with your dating life. However, Revivogen costs $30 and is messy, so I don't use it myself. I am trying to make my own fatty acids which are cheaper and don't have the smelly saw palmetto.

 

[Pondle]

On your Myspace page you recommend taking 2 * Dutas per week as part of an "inexpensive, powerful regrowth regimen". So you're recanting?

As for the 5AR1, I'm not bothered. Women have much less 5AR1 than men (and much less DHT). There seems to be no obvious clinical penalty associated with this.

Home chemistry is beyond most of us without the time or knowledge to mess around. Are you sure that your homebrew topicals are stable and effective?

 

[CCS]

OK, I guess it is safe to use dutasteride. I'm just saying I don't think it is that much stronger, and it did not save my brother's hair when he used it 3x per week with grapefruit juice for over 6 months. I think finasteride at least slowed my hairloss down, or maintained my hair. Not sure which.

My main advice to people is if they really want power, they need topicals, like rogain foam or something. But unless your regimen is cheap and non-messy and very easy and fast to apply, you will probably give up and fail. Shampoos meet all these requirments, but have questionable strength. They are so cheap and easy though that I think everyone should use Nizoral, and everyone should put GTE or cheap bulk apple poly powder in their cheap shampoo for their nizoral off days.

I just want to emphasize that if you just look at the 5ar inhibition of dutasteride, you will be giving yourself a false sense of security. Hair regrowth power is related to, but not at all proportionaly to DHT reduction.

 

[Bryan]

Re: I'm staying away from dutasteride

Yes it is more effective, but the effectiveness should be judged by the difference in hair counts between trial subjects and THE PLACEBO group, not baseline, and certainly not just on the amount of DHT reduction. If you compare it to the placebo group, it is not a lot stronger than finasteride.

Exactly. I've been saying for years that to make a fair comparison between finasteride and dutasteride, you have to compare the 6-month haircounts with the PLACEBO groups, not just the starting baseline numbers. Comparing them to the baseline numbers makes the difference between the two drugs appear to be a little more significant than it actually is.

 

[Aplunk1]

Is anyone able to copy-and-paste a few numbers here without going to much effort of finding them?

 

[Bryan]

Are you referring to what I just said, Aplunk?

 

[Aplunk1]

Absolutely-- and to clarify for other posters...

Dutasteride vs. Placebo

Dutasteride vs. Baseline

Finasteride (1mg, or 5mg) vs. Placebo

Finasteride (1mg, or 5mg) vs. Baseline

 

[badasshairday III]

Thank you for the post CCS, very informative.

As for the poster above stating women have less 5ar1... women and men have different brain chemistry and scientists are begining to find more and more differences. Be careful. dutasteride seems like much more of a risk than finasteride.

 

[Bryan]

Here's a simple, imaginary example to illustrate what I'm talking about:

Imagine that two new drugs have been discovered that inhibit 5a-reductase (drug "A", and drug "B"), only they're not as powerful as finasteride or dutasteride. In fact, they're just BARELY able to stop balding at all!

Now imagine that after a typical clinical trial for male pattern baldness, the two drugs (and the PLACEBO) were able to produce the following haircount changes (respectively): +1, +2, and -50 hairs. In other words, drug A had a +1 improvement in haircount after a year, drug "B" had a +2 improvement, and the placebo group dropped by 50 hairs, as part of the continuation of their balding process. Now, a very superficial analysis of the above numbers might lead someone to conclude that drug B was TWICE as effective as drug A, because after all, it regrew TWICE as much hair! :roll: But that would obviously not be the correct way to look at it. The difference between the two drugs isn't 1 versus 2, it's 51 versus 52 (compared to placebo). It's clear that in this simple mythical example, the number of regrown hairs is just the tip of a much bigger iceberg. Drugs A and B are almost exactly the same in effectiveness, because you have to take into consideration the fact that both are completely inhibiting further balding.

Now going back to the performance of finasteride and dutasteride in Glaxo's own trial for male pattern baldness, the actual numbers they got for finasteride (5 mg), dutasteride (0.5 mg), and placebo are (respectively): +73.2, +95.5, and -29.6 hairs. A similar superficial analysis as in the previous example (simply comparing the amount of regrown hair) would conclude that Avodart is 95.5 / 73.2 = 30.5% more effective than Proscar, but doing it the proper way (comparing them to placebo) shows that Avodart is (95.5 + 29.6) / (73.2 + 29.6) = 21.7% more effective than Proscar, a smaller figure. When comparing finasteride and dutasteride, the second, smaller figure is a more logical result than the first one, which is a little inflated.

 

[CCS]

Thank you for the post CCS, very informative.

As for the poster above stating women have less 5ar1... women and men have different brain chemistry and scientists are begining to find more and more differences. Be careful. dutasteride seems like much more of a risk than finasteride.

I think finasteride restores the natural DHT/testosterone ratios in people with our genes, plus reduces DHT a bit more to compensate for over active androgen receptors. It does not affect the brain though. Now if you have lots of acne, maybe you'd want dutasteride.

0.625mg per day is $10 per month for me. Very affordable, and almost as good as 1mg. It is a cornerstone for stopping the lose, but my topicals will take it to the next level.

 

[CCS]

Absolutely-- and to clarify for other posters...

Dutasteride vs. Placebo

Dutasteride vs. Baseline

Finasteride (1mg, or 5mg) vs. Placebo

Finasteride (1mg, or 5mg) vs. Baseline

Off the top of my head, which can be inaccurate:

dutasteride vs Baseline at 6 months: +100 hairs
5mg finasteride at 6 months: +75 hairs
Placebo at 6 months: -40 hairs.

check out my avatar. you can google that picture. for a close up. The peak of the propecia at 1 year is 90 hairs, so probably 60 hairs at 6 months. Note: the 100 hairs is dutasteride 0.5mg every day. 0.1mg per day is as strong as Proscar.

The Avodart is 20% stronger than Proscar, and Proscar 20% stronger than Propecia. 1mg of propecia is 20% stronger than 0.2mg of finasteride.

Finally: get this: 2% minoxidil regrows more hair than Avodart does.

 

[CCS]

One more thing:

This is based on Placebo at 6 months, which is not much. If you look a few years out, placebo falls fast, and propecia stops climbing. I doubt dutasteride will keep climbing. Castration does not regrow a lot of hair. Hard to say how much it regrows. But from looking at old photographs of castrated men before they were castrated, and years after, there is not a noticeable gain in hair amount. But no loss either.

So Avodart may climb higher than propecia and stay there, but it is not a super cure.

 

[CCS]

also, in people like us, the androgen receptor can become sensitive enough that even testosterone causes balding eventually, even if all DHT is gone. You are better off spending your extra money on a topical androgen receptor blocker like spironolactone or eucapil or EGCG. GTE is my favorite because it is good for skin. It stopped Micheal Berry's beard from growing on one side in 2 months, and stopped 97% of growth in castrated hampster flack organ in the presense of DHT cream. Best of all, the stuff is cheap. So cheap you can dump it in your shampoo and your body wash.

 

[stampede]

Okay, I'm confused now, please could someone give me answers to the following:

1. Which is better, finasteride or dutasteride (regardless of price)?

2. What is GTE? I thought is was a type of car!!

 

[beaner]

Okay, I'm confused now, please could someone give me answers to the following:

1. Which is better, finasteride or dutasteride (regardless of price)?

2. What is GTE? I thought is was a type of car!!

1. dutasteride

2. Green tea extract

 

[stampede]

Okay, I'm confused now, please could someone give me answers to the following:

1. Which is better, finasteride or dutasteride (regardless of price)?

2. What is GTE? I thought is was a type of car!!

1. dutasteride

2. Green tea extract

Green tea extract eh?!

I drink about 10 cups of green tea a day, just 'cos I love the stuff. I didn't know it could do my hair good if I put it in my shampoo...!

So where do I get this GTE from? Or do I mix the contents of a tea bag into my shampoo, or what?

 

[beaner]

Okay, I'm confused now, please could someone give me answers to the following:

1. Which is better, finasteride or dutasteride (regardless of price)?

2. What is GTE? I thought is was a type of car!!

1. dutasteride

2. Green tea extract

Green tea extract eh?!

I drink about 10 cups of green tea a day. I didn't know it could do my hair good if I put it in my shampoo...!

So where do I get this GTE from? Or do I mix the contents of a tea bag into my shampoo, or what?

You can buy GTE capsules at almost any supermarket, healthfood store, pharmacy, etc. (in the US anyway) I dunno about putting it in your shampoo....you'll have to wait for CCS on that one. Probably dump the contents of the capsules into the bottle.

 

[CCS]

Probably dump the contents of the capsules into the bottle.

You can do that if the bottle is cheap. I prefer to buy 100g for $9 from http://www.beyondacenturyonline.com, then put 2 scoops (1/2 tea spoon level) (1g) into 8oz of shampoo. Add a scoop of apple poly to that too. Baby shampoo is best: clear bottle, cheap, gentle and more neutral pH so less likely to react with the GTE. This vehicle is experimental, though the GTE shows great promise in in vivo studies.

yeah, Avodart is stronger than finasteride. Just saying if you are looking for the king of treatments, settling for just Avodart is hardly that. It is only the king of 5ar2 inhibitors, not hair regrowers/protectors. I don't want people on here getting too much false hope from Avodart like it is way better than propecia when it is only marginally better. Spend the difference in money on a topical AR blocker for better results, or on Rogaine foam. But my shampoo idea is too cheap to pass up.

 

[Aplunk1]

Here's a simple, imaginary example to illustrate what I'm talking about:

Imagine that two new drugs have been discovered that inhibit 5a-reductase (drug "A", and drug "B"), only they're not as powerful as finasteride or dutasteride. In fact, they're just BARELY able to stop balding at all!

Now imagine that after a typical clinical trial for male pattern baldness, the two drugs (and the PLACEBO) were able to produce the following haircount changes (respectively): +1, +2, and -50 hairs. In other words, drug A had a +1 improvement in haircount after a year, drug "B" had a +2 improvement, and the placebo group dropped by 50 hairs, as part of the continuation of their balding process. Now, a very superficial analysis of the above numbers might lead someone to conclude that drug B was TWICE as effective as drug A, because after all, it regrew TWICE as much hair! :roll: But that would obviously not be the correct way to look at it. The difference between the two drugs isn't 1 versus 2, it's 51 versus 52 (compared to placebo). It's clear that in this simple mythical example, the number of regrown hairs is just the tip of a much bigger iceberg. Drugs A and B are almost exactly the same in effectiveness, because you have to take into consideration the fact that both are completely inhibiting further balding.

Now going back to the performance of finasteride and dutasteride in Glaxo's own trial for male pattern baldness, the actual numbers they got for finasteride (5 mg), dutasteride (0.5 mg), and placebo are (respectively): +73.2, +95.5, and -29.6 hairs. A similar superficial analysis as in the previous example (simply comparing the amount of regrown hair) would conclude that Avodart is 95.5 / 73.2 = 30.5% more effective than Proscar, but doing it the proper way (comparing them to placebo) shows that Avodart is (95.5 + 29.6) / (73.2 + 29.6) = 21.7% more effective than Proscar, a smaller figure. When comparing finasteride and dutasteride, the second, smaller figure is a more logical result than the first one, which is a little inflated.

Great analogy! This really clarifies things for me.

Can we speculate the difference between 1 pill Avodart vs. 1 pill Propecia, in terms of effectiveness?

 

[Aplunk1]

yeah, Avodart is stronger than finasteride. Just saying if you are looking for the king of treatments, settling for just Avodart is hardly that. It is only the king of 5ar2 inhibitors, not hair regrowers/protectors. I don't want people on here getting too much false hope from Avodart like it is way better than propecia when it is only marginally better. Spend the difference in money on a topical AR blocker for better results, or on Rogaine foam. But my shampoo idea is too cheap to pass up.

I love the fact that Avodart is 21.5% better than Proscar, and everyone always splits up their Proscar! I'm sure that the total haircount difference between Avodart and Propecia is probably big... Hell, Avodart might be able to regrow hair in the temples.