New Polichem Topical finasteride Test - Photosensitization?

[Breyfogle]

Polichem's topical finasteride product has been in phase III for some time (according to their website). However, it looks like they've begun a NEW test (back to phase I) on P-3074 that is experimenting with the effects of 'photosensitization.'

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02791243?term=P-3074&rank=1

I assume they are seeing what effect sunlight has on the solution as it sits on your head, but can't be sure. Any experts want to chime in?

PS: I know it's just another form of finasteride, but some of us who respond well to finasteride also tend to get major side effects. An effective topical without sides would be VERY welcome for many, many people.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

It's unclear if this will work for the following reasons:

1) Does DHT in the blood have no impact on hair loss, as implicitly assumed?
2) Does a topical finasteride atually maintain the effective reduction rates in scalp/blood long-term?
3) Does topical finasteride also have less inhibition in the cerebrospinal fluid, which may or may not contribute significantly to sides?

 

[Breyfogle]

The question is about photosensitization.

Whether or not finasteride works topically will be answered when\if they release the results of their main trial.
We don't know. I always assumed it was an odd idea since finasteride doesn't inhibit DHT directly, it inhibits 5a-r. Wouldn't it need to go systemic to work in that regard? Again, above my paygrade. If they test it and it works, it works. That's the only way to find out.

Right now, I'm just confused by what the hell this new test is.

 

[Pavi]

Is this bad news for their phase III?

 

[Ikkaku]

If we have to wait again three phases.... I'm not going to have any hope for this stuff.

But thank you for informations.

 

[mr_robot]

1) Does DHT in the blood have no impact on hair loss, as implicitly assumed?

Non balding follicles have DHT present, elevated in balding hair due to 5ar being produced inside the follicle that results in a in halving of T and doublng DHT present. You can decrease DHT by decreasing it in blood serum so there is less total DHT which is why finasteride needs to go systemic to work. 5ar inhibitors do not seem to beable to block DHT conversion inside the follicle, I say this because people on finasteride result in scalp DHT levels being lowered to normal levels yet finasteride has removed 90% of DHT from blood serum.

 

[Dench57]

Non balding follicles have DHT present, elevated in balding hair due to 5ar being produced inside the follicle that results in a in halving of T and doublng DHT present. You can decrease DHT by decreasing it in blood serum so there is less total DHT which is why finasteride needs to go systemic to work. 5ar inhibitors do not seem to beable to block DHT conversion inside the follicle, I say this because people on finasteride result in scalp DHT levels being lowered to normal levels yet finasteride has removed 90% of DHT from blood serum.

No.

finasteride is a selective 5AR2 inhibitor. It will inhibit 5AR2 anywhere in the body, which includes the hair follicle.
"Scalp DHT" mostly comes from 5AR1 which finasteride weakly inhibits. Which is why dutasteride, a much more potent inhibitor of 5AR1, reduces scalp DHT much more. Especially higher doses of dutasteride since it is dose dependent.

The most relevant to Androgenetic Alopecia will obviously be the 5AR2 produced in the follicle, but since DHT works as an endocrine hormone too, a lot of DHT produced elsewhere in the body will still have some effect on balding. How much of an effect is unclear.

 

[drakeznathan]

In other words this won't work eh ?

 

[mr_robot]

No.

finasteride is a selective 5AR2 inhibitor. It will inhibit 5AR2 anywhere in the body, which includes the hair follicle.
"Scalp DHT" mostly comes from 5AR1 which finasteride weakly inhibits. Which is why dutasteride, a much more potent inhibitor of 5AR1, reduces scalp DHT much more. Especially higher doses of dutasteride since it is dose dependent.

The most relevant to Androgenetic Alopecia will obviously be the 5AR2 produced in the follicle, but since DHT works as an endocrine hormone too, a lot of DHT produced elsewhere in the body will still have some effect on balding. How much of an effect is unclear.

Sure but the problem is as 5ar is being produced in the follicle itself you have both T and finasteride present with new 5aR being produced any inhibitor has to inhibit the 5ar before it reaches T for the conversion DHT. Even at doses where dutasteride nearly totally eliminates blood serum DHT it cant do the same in the scalp. That topical finasteride has never been shown to work unless taken in quantities that allow enough to cause systemic absorbsion would suggest that the it is mainly due to lowering of blood serum DHT that is causing the beneficial effect. I don't think it is likely you will ever get a low dosage topical 5ar inhibitor that works.

 

[drakeznathan]

Sure but the problem is as 5ar is being produced in the follicle itself you have both T and finasteride present with new 5aR being produced any inhibitor has to inhibit the 5ar before it reaches T for the conversion DHT. Even at doses where dutasteride nearly totally eliminates blood serum DHT it cant do the same in the scalp. That topical finasteride has never been shown to work unless taken in quantities that allow enough to cause systemic absorbsion would suggest that the it is mainly due to lowering of blood serum DHT that is causing the beneficial effect. I don't think it is likely you will ever get a low dosage topical 5ar inhibitor that works.

Why do you say topical finasteride has never shown to work ? Hanson and wong says topical finasteride worked as efficient as oral finasteride in their patients. It's on their website.

https://hassonandwong.com/topical-finasteride-solution-prescription/

Studies
Pharmacodynamic of Finasteride Topical Solution
Sheikh S minoxidil plus Topical Finasteride

 

[hilbert]

Let's not restart old discussions that have been settled more than 10 yrs ago in fora and 20 yrs ago by researchers.

What we know for sure is:

• topical finasteride is effective enough (e.g. Mazzarella study in '96) -- and at very low %s
• this makes sense from a theoretical viewpoint (google fora and papers; once user Bryan explained this very clearly to us street joes)
• if applied topically, finasteride can be easily absorbed systemically -- rather, it's so hard to keep it topical (e.g. see previous Polichem papers with the old 0.25%)
• the known gels, with their extremely high %s, are absorbed systemically -- and of course they work: topically and systemically
  • so, I wouldn't take any of these gels as a proof that topical finasteride works: first, show me that serum DHT is unaffected, then I'll believe in the topical action

 

[Breyfogle]

Enough with the DHT conjecture!

This thread is about what the hell this NEW test is. WIll someone smart please decipher this?
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02791243?term=P-3074&rank=1

 

[alscarmuzza]

Essentially, they are trying to determine if their finasteride formulation causes an increase in skin sensitivity to ultraviolet rays. There are some drugs that increase your photosensitivity, causing you to sunburn quicker.

 

[yellowbluegrey]

Same deal with retin a's it sounds like

 

[Kevand]

Sure but the problem is as 5ar is being produced in the follicle itself you have both T and finasteride present with new 5aR being produced any inhibitor has to inhibit the 5ar before it reaches T for the conversion DHT. Even at doses where dutasteride nearly totally eliminates blood serum DHT it cant do the same in the scalp. That topical finasteride has never been shown to work unless taken in quantities that allow enough to cause systemic absorbsion would suggest that the it is mainly due to lowering of blood serum DHT that is causing the beneficial effect. I don't think it is likely you will ever get a low dosage topical 5ar inhibitor that works.

Why would you assume that. You think that systemic dht har more impact than dht produced locally? Then I ask you based on what? There hasn't been much effort to study topical finasteride in quantities that don't allow significant absorption. The marketing of most topical finasteride suggest less side-effects but with higher concentration and with doses that are higher than oral dose the product is prone to fail. A liposomal system wont work as it just takes 0,01-0,05 to get a systemic reduction of dht.
A liposomal delivery system with the highest concentration possible for not going systemic for 95+% of the population could answer this question. This should be fairly easy to formulate, just find a good liposomal system and carefully monitorer dht while adjusting topical dose/concentration, maybe end results will be 0,05-0,2mg, then just try its effectivness. If the solution is half as effective as oral finasteride the should still be some good surplus to own by the company as long they market it right. And that is what polichems trying to do if I have understood correctly.