Need a big favor. S Foote's theory in a nutshell?

[abcdefg]

Maybe a little off topic but why does hair in the very back of the head not change under dht yet the front and crown do? What in hair or the body determines the response of hair to androgens? its doesnt make sense.

 

[Bryan]

Maybe a little off topic but why does hair in the very back of the head not change under dht yet the front and crown do? What in hair or the body determines the response of hair to androgens? its doesnt make sense.

That's the $64,000 question. Nobody knows the answer to that question, yet, but they're working on it.

 

[wookster]

So, if the vessels are dilating and no longer oscillating due to Ach RELEASING NO, then how is the lymph moving?!? :freaked: :freaked: :freaked:

I put three faces just for you, Wookster.


I don't know who is worse with the interpretation of studies, you or Foote.

:hairy: :hairy:

If my interpretation of Foote's theory is correct it seems that the relaxed - dilated lymph vessels in the male pattern baldness arena will allow for better draining due to relaxing the "shut off" effect that has also been elucidated by Mr. Foote.

Like you, I am looking for real answers. Derogatory comments due to flawed interpretations of interpretations do not aid in the search for truth and justice with regards to the nature of male pattern baldness :wink:

 

[docj077]

So, if the vessels are dilating and no longer oscillating due to Ach RELEASING NO, then how is the lymph moving?!? :freaked: :freaked: :freaked:

I put three faces just for you, Wookster.


I don't know who is worse with the interpretation of studies, you or Foote.

:hairy: :hairy:

If my interpretation of Foote's theory is correct it seems that the relaxed - dilated lymph vessels in the male pattern baldness arena will allow for better draining due to relaxing the "shut off" effect that has also been elucidated by Mr. Foote.

Like you, I am looking for real answers. Derogatory comments due to flawed interpretations of interpretations do not aid in the search for truth and justice with regards to the nature of male pattern baldness :wink:

Dilation does not matter in the absence of oscillation. If there are no pressure changes to move lymph due to excess dilation, constriction, or obstruction, then lymph simply doesn't move. We're talking about physiology 101 here.

Your interpretations of his theory are correct. Unfortunately, his science background isn't strong enough for him to form an adequate opinion, so basing your opinion on his opinion pretty much dooms you from the beginning.

Again, dilation is not the same as oscillation and the effect on pressure in the system is not the same. When a vessel dilates, the pressure drops, and stasis occurs. Remember that.

 

[wookster]

Dilation does not matter in the absence of oscillation. If there are no pressure changes to move lymph due to excess dilation, constriction, or obstruction, then lymph simply doesn't move. We're talking about physiology 101 here.

Your interpretations of his theory are correct. Unfortunately, his science background isn't strong enough for him to form an adequate opinion, so basing your opinion on his opinion pretty much dooms you from the beginning.

Again, dilation is not the same as oscillation and the effect on pressure in the system is not the same. When a vessel dilates, the pressure drops, and stasis occurs. Remember that.

:salut: :salut: :salut:

Yes, but dilation would open up lymphatic vessels and gravity would take over. We are talking basic physics 101 here. :wink: When I get up in the morning, there is a slight puffiness to my scalp tissues[easily observable with a shaved head]. After walking around awhile, the puffines subsides.

 

[docj077]

Dilation does not matter in the absence of oscillation. If there are no pressure changes to move lymph due to excess dilation, constriction, or obstruction, then lymph simply doesn't move. We're talking about physiology 101 here.

Your interpretations of his theory are correct. Unfortunately, his science background isn't strong enough for him to form an adequate opinion, so basing your opinion on his opinion pretty much dooms you from the beginning.

Again, dilation is not the same as oscillation and the effect on pressure in the system is not the same. When a vessel dilates, the pressure drops, and stasis occurs. Remember that.

:salut: :salut: :salut:

Yes, but dilation would open up lymphatic vessels and gravity would take over. We are talking basic physics 101 here. :wink: When I get up in the morning, there is a slight puffiness to my scalp tissues[easily observable with a shaved head]. After walking around awhile, the puffines subsides.

Not necessarily. Dilation does not guarantee that gravity will take over. Pressure changes are still required. If pressure changes do not occur across the entire lymphatic system before draining into a node or into the venous system, then stasis will occur across the entire system. To assume that the edema would be localized to only the scalp (especially to the area most influenced by gravity) is quite foolish.

If you have noticeable edema on your scalp in the morning, then you have a problem with fluid shifting. Not lymphedema.

Oops, almost forgot. :roll: :roll: :roll:

 

[bubka]

Yes, but dilation would open up lymphatic vessels and gravity would take over. We are talking basic physics 101 here. :wink: When I get up in the morning, there is a slight puffiness to my scalp tissues[easily observable with a shaved head]. After walking around awhile, the puffines subsides.

tell us more of this "puffiness" and does it matter on how your head is laying on the pillow given that gravity is the factor???

 

[wookster]

Dilation does not guarantee that gravity will take over. Pressure changes are still required. If pressure changes do not occur across the entire lymphatic system before draining into a node or into the venous system, then stasis will occur across the entire system. To assume that the edema would be localized to only the scalp (especially to the area most influenced by gravity) is quite foolish.

If you have noticeable edema on your scalp in the morning, then you have a problem with fluid shifting. Not lymphedema.

:salut: :salut: :salut:


Movement of lymph also depends on muscle movement...

Didn't Foote also mention that minoxidil's ability to "shift fluid" balance is possibly the reason for its hair growth effectiveness?

I am not sure what you mean that I have a problem with fluid shifting because otherwise there is no problem with fluid retention except for the times I tried minoxidil, my ankles swelled slightly. My maternal grandfather suffered from congestive heart failure though and his legs were swollen with fluid in his last years. He also had male pattern baldness about NW7 or so.

Mr. Foote is probably not going to give out ALL of the details to his interesting theory here, on the internet

 

[wookster]

Yes, but dilation would open up lymphatic vessels and gravity would take over. We are talking basic physics 101 here. :wink: When I get up in the morning, there is a slight puffiness to my scalp tissues[easily observable with a shaved head]. After walking around awhile, the puffines subsides.

tell us more of this "puffiness" and does it matter on how your head is laying on the pillow given that gravity is the factor???

I am not sure about the pillow variable. I just know that the slight swelling subsides after moving around and exercising. :wink:

 

[wookster]

Interesting...

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... id=1502157

Inflammatory Manifestations of Experimental Lymphatic Insufficiency


[...]

Sustained lymph stagnation engenders a pathological response that is complex and not well characterized. Tissue inflammation in lymphedema may reflect either an active or passive consequence of impaired immune traffic.

Methods and Findings

We studied an experimental model of acute post-surgical lymphedema in the tails of female hairless, immunocompetent SKH-1 mice. We performed in vivo imaging of impaired immune traffic in experimental, murine acquired lymphatic insufficiency. We demonstrated impaired mobilization of immunocompetent cells from the lymphedematous region. These findings correlated with histopathological alterations and large-scale transcriptional profiling results. We found intense inflammatory changes in the dermis and the subdermis. The molecular pattern in the RNA extracted from the whole tissue was dominated by the upregulation of genes related to acute inflammation, immune response, complement activation, wound healing, fibrosis, and oxidative stress response.

[...]

The area affected by the lymphedema had the appearance often seen in inflamed tissue, and analysis of genes from the same area to see how active, or “expressed,â€￾ they were showed changes that are often seen in, for example, acute inflammation and wound healing. The authors also showed that when these animals were injected with immune cells marked with a light marker, they were less able to remove the cells from the circulation.

[...]

These results show that the response to lymph stagnation is complex, but looks similar to that seen in acute inflammation. These results and this model may be useful in suggesting, and at a later date perhaps testing, treatments for lymphedema. One difference, however, between this mouse model and the condition in humans is that whereas lymphedema in humans is a rather chronic condition, here the researchers were only able to look at the changes over a short period of time.

 

[michael barry]

The scalp excercise and rinsing the head with cool water ought to help turn over fluids and blood in the scalp every morning after the shower. I still do it every day. Hair keeps getting darker and darker. Almost a light/medium brown now, used to be quite blonde. Of course I use peptides, finas, and nizoral also.


I think getting good blood flow to any area would be a positive in the dermis of that area, and getting stagnant lyph and blood out of the area would be helpful also-----regardless of Stephen's theory. Its just good common sense.


Peptides Wook, have helped me look much younger tremendously.

My relatives commented today that I still look like "one of the teenagers". Im approaching forty now, and have an unlined face.



I had a burn on a hand a couple of weeks back, put some peptides (tricomin) on it for three days. Its healing unbelievably fast. No pain after one day. This was a pretty damn good burn, and hurt until I could get home.




Wook, I know youre a naturals sort...................................but I cant say enough good things about peptides, be it Proctor's stuff or tricomin. I think they work------and they also aid in lymph drainage.



BTW----the peppermint oil and water is still reducing beard hair a great deal, and one side of my chin is obviously less hairy than the other. Its even more obvious right after I shave. Its not as puffy because the dermal papillas of my whiskers on one side are shrinking up to teenage size on one side of my chin. The green tea extract is effective too, but I think the peppermint is outlegging it. However, its hard to compare one side of the neck to one side of the chin, etc. Tricomin shampoo and conditioner (as well as Jasons Shampoo brands, and American Crew Thickening) all have either peppermint oil, or peppermint leaves in them. Coincidence?

 

[wookster]

BTW----the peppermint oil and water is still reducing beard hair a great deal, and one side of my chin is obviously less hairy than the other. Its even more obvious right after I shave. Its not as puffy because the dermal papillas of my whiskers on one side are shrinking up to teenage size on one side of my chin. The green tea extract is effective too, but I think the peppermint is outlegging it.

I wonder how far your beard reduction experiment will progress?

http://www.keratin.com/ac/baldnesstreat ... ents.shtml

Why is there no loss of beard hair when using anti 5 alpha reductase, or anti androgen drugs

Hair follicles on different parts of the body have different responses to androgens. Scalp hair follicles miniaturise and become less active under androgen influence, especially dihydrotestosterone. In contrast, hair follicles in the pubic areas, and the beard in men, become larger and more active producing thick coarse hair under the influence of the exact same hormones. This might seem to suggest that antiandrogen drugs or any drug that reduces androgen levels near hair follicles, such as 5 alpha reductase inhibitors, may allow increased hair growth on the scalp but hair loss in the pubic and beard areas.



[...]

The lack of complete beard and pubic hair loss is probably due to an apparent "point of no return" that hair follicles seem to pass through when we reach puberty. It seems that the first increase in hormones at puberty have a profound effect on determining the fate of hair follicles in adult life. Once hair follicles in the beard and pubic regions are switched into coarse hair production at puberty there is no going back. Equally, once scalp hair follicles are exposed to androgens in puberty their fate is sealed and the follicles are susceptible to male pattern baldness.

 

[wookster]

Interesting

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract

Beards, baldness, and sweat secretion.

Cabanac M, Brinnel H.

Universite Laval, Faculte de Medicine, Department de Physiologie, Quebec, Canada.

The hypothesis according to which male common baldness has developed in the human species as a compensation for the growth of a beard in order to achieve heat loss has been tested. In 100 clean-shaven men direct measurement of the area of glabrous skin on the forehead and calvaria was found to be proportional to that of the hairy skin on the lips, cheeks, chin and neck. During light hyperthermia the evaporation rate on the bald scalp was 2 to 3 times higher than on the hairy scalp. Conversely the evaporation rate was practically equal on the foreheads and chins of women and unbearded young men, while in adult clean-shaven bearded men it was 40% less on the chin than the forehead. These results support the hypothesis that male baldness is a thermoregulatory compensation for the growth of a beard in adults.

PMID: 3203673 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[Jkkezh]

The scalp excercise and rinsing the head with cool water ought to help turn over fluids and blood in the scalp every morning after the shower. I still do it every day. Hair keeps getting darker and darker. Almost a light/medium brown now, used to be quite blonde. Of course I use peptides, finas, and nizoral also.


I think getting good blood flow to any area would be a positive in the dermis of that area, and getting stagnant lyph and blood out of the area would be helpful also-----regardless of Stephen's theory. Its just good common sense.

When my mom was on vacation last year in Nepal she was staying at a hotel where the owner was in his 60s still with a full and dark head of hair. When people asked him about his 'secret' he said that he never washes his hair with warm water, but very cold water only. There might be some truth in this, although he probably had some pretty good genes as well.

If the lymph and blood flow really is an important factor for the hair, I can imagine people's lifestyles having a pretty big impact on this. People with deskjobs sitting behind the computer all day probably have much less circulation of these fluids then people with active lifestyles. When I have to trust my gut feeling I would say that baldness is more common in "nerds" and less common in "athlethic types" which would support the theory that lymph and bloodflow is important for the hair.

Has there ever been a study to determine if there is a correlation between lifestyle (and by lifestyle I mean activity/type of job/excercise etc) and the incidence of baldness?

 

[docj077]

Interesting...

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... id=1502157

Inflammatory Manifestations of Experimental Lymphatic Insufficiency


[...]

Sustained lymph stagnation engenders a pathological response that is complex and not well characterized. Tissue inflammation in lymphedema may reflect either an active or passive consequence of impaired immune traffic.

Methods and Findings

We studied an experimental model of acute post-surgical lymphedema in the tails of female hairless, immunocompetent SKH-1 mice. We performed in vivo imaging of impaired immune traffic in experimental, murine acquired lymphatic insufficiency. We demonstrated impaired mobilization of immunocompetent cells from the lymphedematous region. These findings correlated with histopathological alterations and large-scale transcriptional profiling results. We found intense inflammatory changes in the dermis and the subdermis. The molecular pattern in the RNA extracted from the whole tissue was dominated by the upregulation of genes related to acute inflammation, immune response, complement activation, wound healing, fibrosis, and oxidative stress response.

[...]

The area affected by the lymphedema had the appearance often seen in inflamed tissue, and analysis of genes from the same area to see how active, or “expressed,â€￾ they were showed changes that are often seen in, for example, acute inflammation and wound healing. The authors also showed that when these animals were injected with immune cells marked with a light marker, they were less able to remove the cells from the circulation.

[...]

These results show that the response to lymph stagnation is complex, but looks similar to that seen in acute inflammation. These results and this model may be useful in suggesting, and at a later date perhaps testing, treatments for lymphedema. One difference, however, between this mouse model and the condition in humans is that whereas lymphedema in humans is a rather chronic condition, here the researchers were only able to look at the changes over a short period of time.

This didn't help your argument at all. Why post it?

 

[docj077]

Dilation does not guarantee that gravity will take over. Pressure changes are still required. If pressure changes do not occur across the entire lymphatic system before draining into a node or into the venous system, then stasis will occur across the entire system. To assume that the edema would be localized to only the scalp (especially to the area most influenced by gravity) is quite foolish.

If you have noticeable edema on your scalp in the morning, then you have a problem with fluid shifting. Not lymphedema.

:salut: :salut: :salut:


Movement of lymph also depends on muscle movement...



Mr. Foote is probably not going to give out ALL of the details to his interesting theory here, on the internet

If lymph flow depended on muscle movement in the scalp, then EVERYONE would go bald as the only areas with muscle on the top of the head are the forehead region, the temporal region, and the occipital region (the regions where baldness does not occur or where terminal hair doesn't grow in the first place). Everything else is covered by an aponeurosis. There is no muscle whatsoever covering the cranial vault.

Also, I could care less about Foote's theories. He can say whatever he wants. That doesn't make it correct. :roll: :roll: :roll:

 

[Bryan]

Mr. Foote is probably not going to give out ALL of the details to his interesting theory here, on the internet

That statement is laughable, in my opinion. As much as Stephen Foote and his eccentric theory have been hammered and humiliated on this site over the years, there's no way he wouldn't pull out all the stops, and cough-up EVERYTHING that he could even remotely think would support it.

 

[bubka]

do these people with their "theories" have any support in their own regimes to back u[p their claims? not that just themselves would be scientific, but a good theory has lots of evidence upon layers of observations and and conclusive results to support it

 

[wookster]

If lymph flow depended on muscle movement in the scalp, then EVERYONE would go bald as the only areas with muscle on the top of the head are the forehead region, the temporal region, and the occipital region (the regions where baldness does not occur or where terminal hair doesn't grow in the first place). Everything else is covered by an aponeurosis. There is no muscle whatsoever covering the cranial vault.

http://www.hairloss-reversible.com/my_approach.htm

The scalp exercise does three things:

1. It quickens the blood flow to the whole epicranial area. By epicranial area I mean the skin of the scalp; the layer under the skin, which is called the subcutaneous layer; and beneath this, the muscles and the galea.

2. It strengthens the walls of the capillaries that nourish the hair follicles, and perhaps promotes the growth of new capillaries in scalp tissue (angiogenesis). Read Exercise and Angiogenesis: Two Articles for further elaboration on this.

3. It increases the flexibility and elasticity of the whole scalp. There is a positive correlation between a tight scalp and male pattern baldness. “Scalp tension is etiologic of male pattern baldness.â€￾ - This from a textbook on dermatology.

These three things should halt the shrinking of the hair follicles and even reverse the shrinking process, which in turn should halt hair loss and promote the growth of new hair.

 

[wookster]

Mr. Foote is probably not going to give out ALL of the details to his interesting theory here, on the internet

That statement is laughable, in my opinion. As much as Stephen Foote and his eccentric theory have been hammered and humiliated on this site over the years, there's no way he wouldn't pull out all the stops, and cough-up EVERYTHING that he could even remotely think would support it.

There are many theory thieves out here on the wild west of cyberspace. Why cough up everything?