Mythbusters : Follicles Permanent Death In Androgenetic Alopecia ?

[BaldyBalderBald]

Going through the different threads of this forum, this aspect of androgenetic alopecia is assumed to be reversible by some members and irreversible by others without backing up their claims, leaving this blurred halo around follicles permanent death.

This thread is about gathering more information from reliable sources and that could support or refute this hypothesis.Try to contribute to this topic by citing scholarly sources and linking the sources.

Avoid claims like "Look at this MtF transgender with complete recovery", with only as reliable source a picture of him/her, without knowing for how long his follicles were miniaturized or explain why this can be possible.

To get started, i will quote this research paper from 2012
Miniaturized Hairs Maintain Contact with the Arrector Pili Muscle in Alopecia Areata but not in Androgenetic Alopecia: A Model for Reversible Miniaturization and Potential for Hair Regrowth
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3500053/

"Contact between the APM and the bulge in AA may be required for reversal of hair follicle miniaturization. Maintenance of contact between miniaturized follicles in AA could explain the complete hair regrowth while loss of contact between the APM and the bulge in MPHL and FPHL may explain why the hair loss is largely irreversible. This loss of contact may reflect changes in stem cell biology that also underlie irreversible miniaturization."

Three-dimensional reconstructions of AA (a) and FPHL (b) demonstrating the loss of contact of the APM with the ORS of the vellus hair follicle in FPHL which is largely irreversible compared with maintenance of this contact of the APM with ORS in AA which is potentially completely reversible​

Another one from 2014
Destruction of the arrector pili muscle and fat infiltration in androgenic alopecia.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24579818

"Hair loss is caused by follicle miniaturization, which is largely irreversible beyond a certain degree of follicular regression."

"APM degeneration and replacement with fat in Androgenetic Alopecia has not previously been described. The underlying mechanism remains to be determined. However, we speculate that this phenomenon might be related to depletion of stem or progenitor cells from the follicle mesenchyme, explaining why Androgenetic Alopecia is treatment resistant."

And finally this one from 2011
Bald scalp in men with androgenetic alopecia retains hair follicle stem cells but lacks CD200-rich and CD34-positive hair follicle progenitor cells
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3026732/

"In reversible types of alopecia (e.g., alopecia areata), inflammation targets hair follicle progenitor cells but spares hair follicle stem cells. In these disorders, regrowth occurs with suppression of inflammation and subsequent regeneration of the hair follicle from uninjured stem cells (5). Our finding that Androgenetic Alopecia, in the clinical category of nonscarring alopecia, demonstrated preservation of hair follicle stem cells suggests potential reversibility of this condition."


Several conflicting theories and still no consensus of researchers on this aspect.
What bother me here, is that upcoming treatments focus on the creation of new follicles or DP cells (Tsuji and Follica in particular, even if Follica will "regenerate" some dormant follicles according to their patents).

Even Brotzu, if his claims are true and his product ever come out, won't regenerate long lost follicles for a random superior period of 5 years.

This query is therefore legitimate, are the follicles really dead ? Can we hope one day for a complete reversal of Androgenetic Alopecia without hair transplants or new DP cultured cells injections ?

 

[Jonnyyy]

Dang this forum is dead, guess everybody's just patiently waiting for Hellouser

 

[lemoncloak]

@BaldyBalderBald I can't remember where I've read these things as it's been 3 years since I got into reading hair loss studies but the consensus seems to be that DPs die over time (androgen action on balding vs non balding DPs has been well documented) while epithelial stem cells lose the ability to express CD200 (equivalent to cd34 in mice), stay in the bulge and become comatose (Cotsarelis proved this). It's possible that this happens cause they stop getting signals from dead DPs (wnt was it I think?). Check around in the web you'll find sth.

But yeah I think DPs die over time as you can see in my retarded sig. Tell me if you discover otherwise mmkay?

 

[whatevr]

So when someone who has been slick bald in the front for years starts running a hardcore transgender regimen and gets regrowth in those areas, the arrector pili muscle magically attaches itself back to the hair follicles?

I think MtF has proven that hair loss is almost never irreversible and that follicles do not truly "die".

 

[BaldyBalderBald]

So when someone who has been slick bald in the front for years starts running a hardcore transgender regimen and gets regrowth in those areas, the arrector pili muscle magically attaches itself back to the hair follicles?

I think MtF has proven that hair loss is almost never irreversible and that follicles do not truly "die".

Lol, not this again...the three miserable sets of trangenders photos that run around the net do not had their temples back, still NW2, even maybe NW3, slick bald for how many years ? your argument is invalid sir
As long as i know, it even be maybe wigs

 

[whatevr]

Lol, not this again...the three miserable sets of trangenders photos that run around the net do not had their temples back, still NW2, even maybe NW3, slick bald for how many years ? your argument is invalid sir
As long as i know, it even be maybe wigs

Oh, okay. Time to call @antydhtor to let him know that the hair he regrew on CPA & estrogen from NW2.5 all the way down to his new Norwood-1 werewolf hairline was actually fake.

 

[BaldyBalderBald]

Oh, okay. Time to call @antydhtor to let him know that the hair he regrew on CPA & estrogen from NW2.5 all the way down to his new Norwood-1 werewolf hairline was actually fake.

How many years ?

 

[MomoGee]

Even some people on hormone replacement therapy do not recover all their hair and magically go back to NW1. I think it's a case where recovery just gets exponentially harder as time passes by, with even the most aggressive regimens being unable to recover long lost hair.

But even for the most aggressive hair loss 5+ years should still be recoverable, based on the trans people we have seen. We just need a treatment to be as strong without the unwanted side effects, I mean I like boobs as long as they aren't on me.

 

[BaldyBalderBald]

@BaldyBalderBald I can't remember where I've read these things as it's been 3 years since I got into reading hair loss studies but the consensus seems to be that DPs die over time (androgen action on balding vs non balding DPs has been well documented) while epithelial stem cells lose the ability to express CD200 (equivalent to cd34 in mice), stay in the bulge and become comatose (Cotsarelis proved this). It's possible that this happens cause they stop getting signals from dead DPs (wnt was it I think?). Check around in the web you'll find sth.

But yeah I think DPs die over time as you can see in my retarded sig. Tell me if you discover otherwise mmkay?

Yeah i posted this study in OP, time seems to be a crucial factor in follicle bulge degradation

 

[ManinBlack]

It is a shot in the dark whether you will get regrowth even on transgender regimen. I mean sure you have people who get a lot of regrowth but how many more end up having to wear hair systems? I mean hardcore transgender regimen will stop or significantly slow down balding for sure but regrowth is not guaranteed.

 

[Willy31]

It's a nightmare for people with DUPA. I really hope Follica can create new thick hairs.

 

[BaldyBalderBald]

I knew this thread will take the tranny route...some cases of regrowth and people assume this sh*t is entirely reversible, without even considering the time factor or a decent source to backup scientifc claims.

Did someone at least read the original post ?

 

[NimuDash]

This question is a waste of f*****g time since there's no real answer.
Therefore, there will be no end to this debate.
However, I remember that Swoop, That Guy or someone else (can't remember which one posted) a link to the experiment where an elderly 80 year old with Androgenetic Alopecia started regrowing long lost hair (note: some, not all) on scalp after taking estrogen theraphy.
If someone has link to the study please post it here I can't seem to find it.
Follicles still exist in some way or another, they just shrink.

 

[dermrafok]

The scientists are working in this field.

Bald scalp in men with androgenetic alopecia retains hair follicle stem cells but lacks CD200-rich and CD34-positive hair follicle progenitor cells. (2011 Garza et al).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21206086


Stem cell plasticity enables hair regeneration following Lgr5+ cell loss. Nat Cell Biol. (2017 de Sauvage FJ et al).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28553937

Each time the WNT route makes more sense.

The Negative Regulator CXXC5: Making WNT Look a Little Less Dishevelled. (Again Garza et al. 2017).

http://www.jidonline.org/article/S0022-202X(17)32749-5/fulltext

 

[Trichosan]

"...This thread is about gathering more information from reliable sources and that could support or refute this hypothesis.Try to contribute to this topic by citing scholarly sources and linking the sources..."

I think what Baldybalderbald is proposing here is a review and compilation of the literature specific to the biochemistry, anatomy and physiology of research regarding bald scalps. Great idea, because I've been wondering about this for a long time. Subjective and anecdotal accounts just clog up the issue and makes it a pain to scroll through filler to get to the content.

 

[InBeforeTheCure]

Sea otters don't have APMs and their hair seems to be doing just fine.

Absence of arrector pili muscles in the sea otter dermis has been reported
previously (Ling 1970, Scheffer 1964, Tarasoff 1973) and may enhance the
ability of the hairs to lie flat during submersion, further contributing to streamlining
and reducing disruption of the overlapping pattern (Ling 1970). However,
we observed smooth muscle bundles in the dermis, not connected to the hair
follicles or skin, that have not been reported previously. Their function is not
known but they may contribute to contractions of the integument although this
function in mammals has been attributed to the cutaneous trunci muscle, especially
during rapid contractions (Banks 1981). The dermal smooth muscle
bundles observed in the sea otter dermis may be involved in localized contractions
and pleating of the skin to assist in aeration of the pelt. Local smooth muscle
contraction may also increase or decrease the thickness of the skin, thereby
affecting the hair density and, consequently, the thermoregulatory function of
the skin exposed to water. Furthermore, the dermal smooth muscles may function
as arrector pili muscles, and result in elevation of the hairs to increase dead air
space and the insulating capacity and buoyancy of the integument. Similar
dermal smooth muscle bundles are reported in pinnipeds (Sokolov 1960), but
their function is not known.

(Williams et al.)

 

[BaldyBalderBald]

Sea otters don't have APMs and their hair seems to be doing just fine.



(Williams et al.)

View attachment 68740

Well we are not sea otters unfortunately, it seems that the APM is related to hair follicle health

"The hair follicle is a complete mini-organ that lends itself as a model for investigation of a variety of complex biological phenomena, including stem cell biology, organ regeneration and cloning. The arrector pili muscle inserts into the hair follicle at the level of the bulge- the epithelial stem cell niche."

Androgenetic alopecia: new insights into the pathogenesis and mechanism of hair loss.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26339482

 

[InBeforeTheCure]

Well we are not sea otters unfortunately, it seems that the APM is related to hair follicle health

"The hair follicle is a complete mini-organ that lends itself as a model for investigation of a variety of complex biological phenomena, including stem cell biology, organ regeneration and cloning. The arrector pili muscle inserts into the hair follicle at the level of the bulge- the epithelial stem cell niche."

Androgenetic alopecia: new insights into the pathogenesis and mechanism of hair loss.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26339482

"It seems that the APM is related to hair follicle health"

Based on what? What does it do for hair follicles? Besides this of course:

 

[lemoncloak]

Well we are not sea otters unfortunately, it seems that the APM is related to hair follicle health

"The hair follicle is a complete mini-organ that lends itself as a model for investigation of a variety of complex biological phenomena, including stem cell biology, organ regeneration and cloning. The arrector pili muscle inserts into the hair follicle at the level of the bulge- the epithelial stem cell niche."

Androgenetic alopecia: new insights into the pathogenesis and mechanism of hair loss.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26339482

Looks like we'll have to wait for Riken's trial results. Tsuji showed hair germs reconnect to AP muscles in mice. If it's the same with humans we're set.
Not to mention disconnect may happen cause the follicle shrinks too much, purely physically. And like inbeforethecure says, do we know follicles can't stand on their own and muscles are used for anything other than piloerection?

 

[BaldyBalderBald]

"It seems that the APM is related to hair follicle health"

Based on what? What does it do for hair follicles? Besides this of course:

View attachment 68755

Based on this
Beyond Goosebumps: Does the Arrector Pili Muscle Have a Role in Hair Loss?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4158628/

KNOWN ARRECTOR PILI MUSCLE FUNCTIONS
Follicle cycling
The stem cells necessary for hair regeneration reside in the follicle bulge.[11,44] It has been shown that coordinated signaling between epithelial stem cells in the bulge and the underlying mesenchymal DP is present during hair development, and also in adult follicle cycling.[45] This signaling induces stem cell proliferation and provokes the cell differentiation cascade, eventually leading to regeneration of a new lower follicle that replaces the regressed catagen follicle.[44,46] Although never directly investigated, the co-expression of nephronectin in the bulge, APM and DP[7] raises the possibility of common signaling

I love memes, you know that, but assuming we are like sea otters lol, maybe we are like sharks and can regrow teeth aswell
Still the paper mentionned :
"It has not been defined whether APM regression in irreversible hair loss was a cause or effect of the disease."