Hi guys!
I dont frequent forums anymore, but I want to leave one more message.
Quick story:
In 2016, after few months of close to OCD hairloss research I luckily wised up enough to choose one definitive topical stack (similar to one I describe later), stopped overthinking things and just used it. Miracle regrowth didn't happen, but I noticed really satisfying thickening of hairs on hairline bald spot and kind of maintenance on temples. Im Norwood 2.5, so it was enough for me to be happy.
More than month ago I made a rookie mistake: I run out of minoxidil, pantostin and RU almost simultaneously, so I decided to take few weeks of break. I was happy with results but also tired with all those daily routines, besides - nothing can happen in that short period of time, right? Wrong. No more than three weeks being off anything I visibly lost density on bald spot and go through mayor shed on one temple, it was shocking to see such regression in such short period of time.
Right know Im completing my stack again. My current plan is two fold: at first stage I will again use a lot of things (it will be pain in a$$ and its probably take another one or two cycles of hair just to rebound to previous state); next, maybe after a year, despite of results or lack of them I will go with easy to handle longterm small maintenance stack, hoping to keep gains or slow down loss as much as possible.
Things to notice: its purely topical stack for guys who avoid taking finasteride/dutasteride pills. Also Im targeting small area of both temples and side hairlines, its *only* approximately 4 cm square of skin, hence low amounts of specific compounds, lower than it is advised on this forum. Point is, it worked for me earlier. Sorry, there is no new fancy „its science bro" sh!t in stack, no accidentally chosen components, all of them have their stronger or weaker in vivo research and purpose. It may look boring but IMO its optimal combination of topicals that are most promising/cheap/easy accessible for everyone. Its almost identical with my last year stack, which gave me good results, but now Im ditching alfatradiol (Pantostin is too pricey vs potential effectiveness) and adding in this place topical finasteride, hoping to make it a staple of antiandrogen part of stack. Why? RU works, but long term safety is big question mark, you shouldn't use it forever, even low doses. I want to use it only as turbo boost in first phase, juts like I did earlier.
REGROWTH STACK
minoxidil 5% 0.5 ml morning, 0.5 ml evening
Hydrocortizone cream, 1-2 x week
1.5 mm dermaroller, once every 3 weeks (I noticed better healing after 3 wks)
0.2 mm dermaroller every 2-3 days (just before minoxidil, to increase absorption)
ANTIANDROGEN STACK
0.01 mg Finasteride in minoxidil every morning
20 mg RU58841 in minoxidil every evening
Ketoconazole 2% shampoo 2 x week
After about one year I will go with minimal maintenance stack, something like:
minoxidil 5%, 0.5 ml 1 x day
Keto shampoo 2x week
+low dosages of finasteride in minoxidil, depending on my reaction to it in upcoming year
Before someone jumps in saying „no point in using less than 1 mg finasteride/day“, Ok, you have your point, but this is my reasoning why I chose 0.01 mg:
- 0.01 taken orally is quite safe from serum reduction perspective. Short term, 40 days Drake study showed small decrease comparable to placebo. Longer study (cant find scientist, its from FDA trails) found statistically significant 10% reduction in serum DHT after 6 months. We have proof here that even such small dose have noticeable effect on serum levels, so we cant say „its doing absolutely nothing“. We can also assume its maximal suppression for this dose, since in same study 0.2 mg and 1 mg reduced respectively 61% and 68% after 6 months. Also, other study found that dose of 0.04 mg after 14 days reduce almost 60% of serum DHT. There is conflicting info on serum DHT suppression with topicals, some research (Mazzarealla) found that dose of 0.1 mg daily doesnt change serum levels even after year, some (Polichem) found significant suppression of similiar dose after a week; we have info from forum members like joestes claiming that even trace doses like 0.03 daily after few weeks reduced their serum DHT significantly. We have also plenty of anecdotal evidence from people affected with finasteride sides noticing same sides after applying different doses of finasteride topically.
- we have no research on effects of topical finasteride on haircount. Oral dose of 0.01 mg works similar to placebo (from two studies I saw it looks like its slowing down hairloss at best), but even in oral studies we can find few promising hints: Drake found that 0.01 mg reduced scalp DHT (comparable to placebo) while leaving serum levels almost intact. Mentioned study for FDA showed 10% reduction of serum DHT and we can hypothesize how much of scalp DHT was reduced. We might look at recent Polichem studies to solve that mystery: their smallest topical dose reduced serum DHT 24%, while scalp DHT levels decreased 50% (and it was whooping 0.2 mg daily for week, so unwanted absorption was surely huge!). For comparison, very effective in regrowth 1 mg and 5 mg finasteride tablet reduced scalp levels respectively by 64% and 69%. So its not look bad.
- but first and foremost: microdosers always try to go as high as possible and same time always kind of underestimate serious cumulative effect of finasteride. Famous example: dose as small as 1/20 of 1mg tablet taken daily for month reduced serum DHT levels *almost* like 5 mg pill. Knowing this I rather stay on lower side, providing ultra small dose of 0.01 finasteride to tissue daily for months (or years, hopefully), than play with little higher doses, doing kind of pulse therapy and not knowing rate of saturation vs systemic absorption. Remember, its proven that with regular use finasteride effects are stacking like crazy. Body need weeks/months to rebuild enzymes and go back to status quo. Im targeting selectively small part of scalp tissue (approximately 1.5" square of skin) hoping to reach, sooner or later, stable point of saturation and local DHT suppression. If it happens (fingers crossed) even with impossible 100% absorption rate, dose of 0.01 circulating daily in my blood will not make huge difference to serum DHT levels. Time and consistency is key here IMO.
If interested, read this thread, look at graphs, lot of good posters and info. There is no definitive answer of timing and amount to use, unfortunately its all hit & miss but thats my personal choice after reading research and gathering info from message boards and finding some balance. Mind you my hairloss is not particularly aggressive, Im targeting small parts of hairline and temples so 0.01 mg may be enough, but if youre diffuse or advanced baldie it may be too little...
Bonus info for people scared to use finasteride directly on skin because of fetus defects risk. Well, I agree, if your wife is already pregnant or you want to start family, taking topical road is not very wise, but hear this: in Mazzarella study half of participants were... women. Lol, I repeat: they sprinkled 100 mg of liquid finasteride on womens head in minoxidil-like vehicle every day for more than a year! Seems that topical finasteride is not so dangerous if scientist allowed woman to use it in not controlled environment (eg. accidental direct contact with other woman which may be pregnant). I didnt check this topic deeper but in FDA trials they found that that using 1 mg or 5mg pill will leave trace amount of finasteride in sperm. Although it seems its not enough to impair fetus development, its also not appealing information. IIRC in animal studies they noticed defects only after megadosing, hence obligatory warning. Maybe they were just cautious for potential lawsuits and it was main reason why Merck abandoned their topical finasteride project (plus fact, that doses as small as 0.05 after enough time destroyed serum DHT just like 5mg)? Who knows...
Ok, finally, my few words of wisdom to guys here who are depressed or lost with all this science information:
- If you feel down, limit visits on hair loss forums and NEVER take seriously any depressing posts or threads of how hair loss is end of the world and baldies are doomed to be forever alone incels. In case of doubt, just look around and search for real world examples of depressed full head of hair guys and smiling bald guys with attractive girls. You will find plenty. Lol, Im sure you will find TRULY mind boggling examples and you will understand that world is not black-white, there is more than one part of puzzle: face, body, confidence, social status, money, charisma and character CAN make up for lost hair. Maybe you wont became famous instagram model with 1000s of likes from hot teen followers, but you can still make it and live happy life. One thing I noticed - if youre relatively young and nw4+ you MUST shave it completely or veeery short, styling few dying feathers will make you look like total fool, no exception to this rule.
- Forget about cure. I stopped caring about any promising hypes or current „scientific breakthroughs“ (lol yeah, sure), just forget it. Dont wait in hope, clock is ticking, there will be no second coming of Jesus who will heal our miniaturized follicles. Current options are limited, but at least we know them all: finasteride, dutasteride - this sh!t is proven to work. But it has price, dont be fooled by pro-finasteride propaganda. On one side you have Merck sponsored research showing that ED and other sexual side effects are as low as 2%, on other you have independent research for example from Japan where you can check paper and calculate numbers yourself to see its +15%. Fact is, you're almost wiping out DHT, one of most powerful male hormones so yes, you can save your hair but mess up your sex life and cognitive functions. Discussion on finasteride safety is almost religious at this point, so its all your choice in what and who you want to believe. TRANSPLANTS - it works, temporally, but it works. If you have small fortune to throw off go for it but always choose best surgeons, taking cheap road can fu*k you up even more than baldness. minoxidil, RU, CB, KETO etc - some science is here, maybe if youre lucky it will save your hair forever, but mostly its just tools to slow down loss, nothing more.
- Beware of hairloss OCD. Checking yourself in mirror everyday, making comparison photos, writing journals, searching for news on message boards, reading hundreds of pages describing „new promising products“ will surely drive you into madness and depression. Forget it. Go out, see yourself that complete baldies are living good life and spending fun time. Even if your „in", OCD is quite easy to overcome - just choose some regime, use it as planned and forget about everything, especially dont look for any news in hairloss world. Options are limited, so depending of what you choose dont expect miracle and always be ready for worst case scenario. And most importantly - if you start some regime wait AT LEAST a year. If youre not ready for shedding and months of bald patches while hair cycle resets - dont even start any regime. This is no bulcrap guys - it sometimes takes few hair cycles to see best results. There was a time when I was impatient and mindlessly mixed and changed different things and regiments: from minoxidil 2%, EGCG + oleuropein, to homemade swiss protocol etc, but best results I saw only after I sticked to one stable regime of basic, mostly proven things and calmly waited.
Good luck everyone!
I dont frequent forums anymore, but I want to leave one more message.
Quick story:
In 2016, after few months of close to OCD hairloss research I luckily wised up enough to choose one definitive topical stack (similar to one I describe later), stopped overthinking things and just used it. Miracle regrowth didn't happen, but I noticed really satisfying thickening of hairs on hairline bald spot and kind of maintenance on temples. Im Norwood 2.5, so it was enough for me to be happy.
More than month ago I made a rookie mistake: I run out of minoxidil, pantostin and RU almost simultaneously, so I decided to take few weeks of break. I was happy with results but also tired with all those daily routines, besides - nothing can happen in that short period of time, right? Wrong. No more than three weeks being off anything I visibly lost density on bald spot and go through mayor shed on one temple, it was shocking to see such regression in such short period of time.
Right know Im completing my stack again. My current plan is two fold: at first stage I will again use a lot of things (it will be pain in a$$ and its probably take another one or two cycles of hair just to rebound to previous state); next, maybe after a year, despite of results or lack of them I will go with easy to handle longterm small maintenance stack, hoping to keep gains or slow down loss as much as possible.
Things to notice: its purely topical stack for guys who avoid taking finasteride/dutasteride pills. Also Im targeting small area of both temples and side hairlines, its *only* approximately 4 cm square of skin, hence low amounts of specific compounds, lower than it is advised on this forum. Point is, it worked for me earlier. Sorry, there is no new fancy „its science bro" sh!t in stack, no accidentally chosen components, all of them have their stronger or weaker in vivo research and purpose. It may look boring but IMO its optimal combination of topicals that are most promising/cheap/easy accessible for everyone. Its almost identical with my last year stack, which gave me good results, but now Im ditching alfatradiol (Pantostin is too pricey vs potential effectiveness) and adding in this place topical finasteride, hoping to make it a staple of antiandrogen part of stack. Why? RU works, but long term safety is big question mark, you shouldn't use it forever, even low doses. I want to use it only as turbo boost in first phase, juts like I did earlier.
REGROWTH STACK
minoxidil 5% 0.5 ml morning, 0.5 ml evening
Hydrocortizone cream, 1-2 x week
1.5 mm dermaroller, once every 3 weeks (I noticed better healing after 3 wks)
0.2 mm dermaroller every 2-3 days (just before minoxidil, to increase absorption)
ANTIANDROGEN STACK
0.01 mg Finasteride in minoxidil every morning
20 mg RU58841 in minoxidil every evening
Ketoconazole 2% shampoo 2 x week
After about one year I will go with minimal maintenance stack, something like:
minoxidil 5%, 0.5 ml 1 x day
Keto shampoo 2x week
+low dosages of finasteride in minoxidil, depending on my reaction to it in upcoming year
Before someone jumps in saying „no point in using less than 1 mg finasteride/day“, Ok, you have your point, but this is my reasoning why I chose 0.01 mg:
- 0.01 taken orally is quite safe from serum reduction perspective. Short term, 40 days Drake study showed small decrease comparable to placebo. Longer study (cant find scientist, its from FDA trails) found statistically significant 10% reduction in serum DHT after 6 months. We have proof here that even such small dose have noticeable effect on serum levels, so we cant say „its doing absolutely nothing“. We can also assume its maximal suppression for this dose, since in same study 0.2 mg and 1 mg reduced respectively 61% and 68% after 6 months. Also, other study found that dose of 0.04 mg after 14 days reduce almost 60% of serum DHT. There is conflicting info on serum DHT suppression with topicals, some research (Mazzarealla) found that dose of 0.1 mg daily doesnt change serum levels even after year, some (Polichem) found significant suppression of similiar dose after a week; we have info from forum members like joestes claiming that even trace doses like 0.03 daily after few weeks reduced their serum DHT significantly. We have also plenty of anecdotal evidence from people affected with finasteride sides noticing same sides after applying different doses of finasteride topically.
- we have no research on effects of topical finasteride on haircount. Oral dose of 0.01 mg works similar to placebo (from two studies I saw it looks like its slowing down hairloss at best), but even in oral studies we can find few promising hints: Drake found that 0.01 mg reduced scalp DHT (comparable to placebo) while leaving serum levels almost intact. Mentioned study for FDA showed 10% reduction of serum DHT and we can hypothesize how much of scalp DHT was reduced. We might look at recent Polichem studies to solve that mystery: their smallest topical dose reduced serum DHT 24%, while scalp DHT levels decreased 50% (and it was whooping 0.2 mg daily for week, so unwanted absorption was surely huge!). For comparison, very effective in regrowth 1 mg and 5 mg finasteride tablet reduced scalp levels respectively by 64% and 69%. So its not look bad.
- but first and foremost: microdosers always try to go as high as possible and same time always kind of underestimate serious cumulative effect of finasteride. Famous example: dose as small as 1/20 of 1mg tablet taken daily for month reduced serum DHT levels *almost* like 5 mg pill. Knowing this I rather stay on lower side, providing ultra small dose of 0.01 finasteride to tissue daily for months (or years, hopefully), than play with little higher doses, doing kind of pulse therapy and not knowing rate of saturation vs systemic absorption. Remember, its proven that with regular use finasteride effects are stacking like crazy. Body need weeks/months to rebuild enzymes and go back to status quo. Im targeting selectively small part of scalp tissue (approximately 1.5" square of skin) hoping to reach, sooner or later, stable point of saturation and local DHT suppression. If it happens (fingers crossed) even with impossible 100% absorption rate, dose of 0.01 circulating daily in my blood will not make huge difference to serum DHT levels. Time and consistency is key here IMO.
If interested, read this thread, look at graphs, lot of good posters and info. There is no definitive answer of timing and amount to use, unfortunately its all hit & miss but thats my personal choice after reading research and gathering info from message boards and finding some balance. Mind you my hairloss is not particularly aggressive, Im targeting small parts of hairline and temples so 0.01 mg may be enough, but if youre diffuse or advanced baldie it may be too little...
Bonus info for people scared to use finasteride directly on skin because of fetus defects risk. Well, I agree, if your wife is already pregnant or you want to start family, taking topical road is not very wise, but hear this: in Mazzarella study half of participants were... women. Lol, I repeat: they sprinkled 100 mg of liquid finasteride on womens head in minoxidil-like vehicle every day for more than a year! Seems that topical finasteride is not so dangerous if scientist allowed woman to use it in not controlled environment (eg. accidental direct contact with other woman which may be pregnant). I didnt check this topic deeper but in FDA trials they found that that using 1 mg or 5mg pill will leave trace amount of finasteride in sperm. Although it seems its not enough to impair fetus development, its also not appealing information. IIRC in animal studies they noticed defects only after megadosing, hence obligatory warning. Maybe they were just cautious for potential lawsuits and it was main reason why Merck abandoned their topical finasteride project (plus fact, that doses as small as 0.05 after enough time destroyed serum DHT just like 5mg)? Who knows...
Ok, finally, my few words of wisdom to guys here who are depressed or lost with all this science information:
- If you feel down, limit visits on hair loss forums and NEVER take seriously any depressing posts or threads of how hair loss is end of the world and baldies are doomed to be forever alone incels. In case of doubt, just look around and search for real world examples of depressed full head of hair guys and smiling bald guys with attractive girls. You will find plenty. Lol, Im sure you will find TRULY mind boggling examples and you will understand that world is not black-white, there is more than one part of puzzle: face, body, confidence, social status, money, charisma and character CAN make up for lost hair. Maybe you wont became famous instagram model with 1000s of likes from hot teen followers, but you can still make it and live happy life. One thing I noticed - if youre relatively young and nw4+ you MUST shave it completely or veeery short, styling few dying feathers will make you look like total fool, no exception to this rule.
- Forget about cure. I stopped caring about any promising hypes or current „scientific breakthroughs“ (lol yeah, sure), just forget it. Dont wait in hope, clock is ticking, there will be no second coming of Jesus who will heal our miniaturized follicles. Current options are limited, but at least we know them all: finasteride, dutasteride - this sh!t is proven to work. But it has price, dont be fooled by pro-finasteride propaganda. On one side you have Merck sponsored research showing that ED and other sexual side effects are as low as 2%, on other you have independent research for example from Japan where you can check paper and calculate numbers yourself to see its +15%. Fact is, you're almost wiping out DHT, one of most powerful male hormones so yes, you can save your hair but mess up your sex life and cognitive functions. Discussion on finasteride safety is almost religious at this point, so its all your choice in what and who you want to believe. TRANSPLANTS - it works, temporally, but it works. If you have small fortune to throw off go for it but always choose best surgeons, taking cheap road can fu*k you up even more than baldness. minoxidil, RU, CB, KETO etc - some science is here, maybe if youre lucky it will save your hair forever, but mostly its just tools to slow down loss, nothing more.
- Beware of hairloss OCD. Checking yourself in mirror everyday, making comparison photos, writing journals, searching for news on message boards, reading hundreds of pages describing „new promising products“ will surely drive you into madness and depression. Forget it. Go out, see yourself that complete baldies are living good life and spending fun time. Even if your „in", OCD is quite easy to overcome - just choose some regime, use it as planned and forget about everything, especially dont look for any news in hairloss world. Options are limited, so depending of what you choose dont expect miracle and always be ready for worst case scenario. And most importantly - if you start some regime wait AT LEAST a year. If youre not ready for shedding and months of bald patches while hair cycle resets - dont even start any regime. This is no bulcrap guys - it sometimes takes few hair cycles to see best results. There was a time when I was impatient and mindlessly mixed and changed different things and regiments: from minoxidil 2%, EGCG + oleuropein, to homemade swiss protocol etc, but best results I saw only after I sticked to one stable regime of basic, mostly proven things and calmly waited.
Good luck everyone!
