My research on low-dose finasteride...

[californiaoceans911]

Yes, 0.2 mg did 80% as good as 1 mg in positive hair counts after six months. I have reason to believe though, that 0.2 mg on the long run should close the gap even more on 1 mg, but I'm not sure if such a study exists for more than 24 weeks on 0.2 mg vs 1 mg.

Serum DHT levels are not an exact correlate to tissue DHT levels, which is what's really important. But it is a fairly good proxy nonetheless. In that sense, 0.2 mg and above are superior to lower doses for their ability to lower intra-follicular DHT levels even further, possibly breaking the critical threshold for some resistant individuals. This is why I always say that 0.5-0.625 mg EOD, or 0.2 mg ED up to 1 mg EOD or 0.5-0.625 mg ED are the optimal doses for treatment, barring in mind a margin of safety for people who do not respond as well to lower doses. I'm currently on 0.625 mg EOD myself with good results.

I assume you meant 24 months not 24 weeks correct? Also, a few studies showed that scalp DHT was also equally suppressed with 0.05 mg, 0.2 mg, and 1 mg. Scientists have suggested that system DHT suppression is also important, not just scalp. I snapped the graph from the Drake et al. paper from 1999. Enjoy.

 

[aero1976]

I don't discount studies for the sake of trying to discount them. I am all about taking less drugs. My prescribing urologist started me on 5mg and said this will most likely eliminate prostate cancer. A urologist years later said it might eliminate some, but it is showing it might lead the ones left to be harder to fight. They are ALWAYS learning. I quit taking it then a couple years later started on 1mg for hair.

You do realize the study above is a phase 1 study at best? It shows nothing. 30 people and some blood work with no actual arrow pointing to show the effects it is having on the stated goal of this forum.

Even if the study had show to grow 80% of the hairs you say it did, and it never stated that, who that comes here wants anything less than the maximum outcome. People pay $10 to move a hair that you discount so easily. 1mg was found to be as beneficial a 5mg for saving hair. The study above somehow tells you that .2, .5, or whatever of a 1mg pill is 80% as effective. It doesn't seem to say that but again, take it for full benefit or don't take it. Not worth the risk.

As far as doctors go, its boring hearing non doctors dismiss them outright without even knowing the ones they speak of.

 

[californiaoceans911]

I don't discount studies for the sake of trying to discount them. I am all about taking less drugs. My prescribing urologist started me on 5mg and said this will most likely eliminate prostate cancer. A urologist years later said it might eliminate some, but it is showing it might lead the ones left to be harder to fight. They are ALWAYS learning. I quit taking it then a couple years later started on 1mg for hair.

You do realize the study above is a phase 1 study at best? It shows nothing. 30 people and some blood work with no actual arrow pointing to show the effects it is having on the stated goal of this forum.

Even if the study had show to grow 80% of the hairs you say it did, and it never stated that, who that comes here wants anything less than the maximum outcome. People pay $10 to move a hair that you discount so easily. 1mg was found to be as beneficial a 5mg for saving hair. The study above somehow tells you that .2, .5, or whatever of a 1mg pill is 80% as effective. It doesn't seem to say that but again, take it for full benefit or don't take it. Not worth the risk.

As far as doctors go, its boring hearing non doctors dismiss them outright without even knowing the ones they speak of.

EDIT: Also I'm not dismissing all doctors (read physicians). I have met some brilliant physicians. My point was that not all physicians are created equally. Same could be said for a lot of professions.

Not the only publication that shows this my friend, there are several, and some that go on for 2 years. You got onto this thread and started insulting people so fast that you missed the point. My point was that I am not RAPIDLY BALDING, nor am I currently bald. For me it is a very slow progression so far. I may not need the full 1 mg, everyone is different. I think that has become clear over the last decade. I simply wanted to put my findings out there so that someone, down the line searching on the forum, would have access to it. That's what this forum is all about.

The results are in, a similar suppression of DHT occurs at 0.05,0.1,0.2, and 1 mg of finasteride. Now whether each dose works well on a certain person can depend on a variety of factors, including (but not limited to) sensitivity to DHT. I don't want to suppress all of my DHT if I don't have to! This is a powerful androgen that also plays a role in anxiety, depression, and other chemical reactions. Just trying to mitigate risks while knowingly giving up some benefit. Just trying to put information I have found out there.

 

[xRedStaRx]

I assume you meant 24 months not 24 weeks correct? Also, a few studies showed that scalp DHT was also equally suppressed with 0.05 mg, 0.2 mg, and 1 mg. Scientists have suggested that system DHT suppression is also important, not just scalp. I snapped the graph from the Drake et al. paper from 1999. Enjoy.

There isn't a study comparing 0.2 mg vs 1 mg for more than 24 weeks. Or 6 months. As far as I know. This will provide a clearer picture if lower doses do catch up to higher ones on an extended medication period.

Scalp DHT is not that important either. It's the follicular DHT levels that are more contributor towards miniaturization.

But on the other hand, I fail to see how 0.05 mg can suppress scalp DHT at the same magnitudes as higher doses, even though it doesn't suppress serum DHT nearly that much in comparison. The general consensus was that scalp DHT levels are difficult to measure properly. I believe there was an extensive discussion on this on one of the old threads, which Brian (rip) took part of.

The second thing is that finasteride molecules have higher affinity towards prostate tissue, compared to scalp tissue. So you would clearly need much higher doses (10 times if I'm not mistaken) to get the same amount of suppression. 5 mg of finasteride reduced prostate DHT by 90% but scalp tissue DHT by 25%, due to the large variable difference between their respective IC50s. But then again tying the first point. Scalp DHT doesn't mean much. Follicular IC50s might be much lower than the scalp skin, and even comparable to prostate tissue. But since they are both difficult to accurately measure, we tend to rely on difference in hair counts between doses as a good scientific hypothesis.

Go to page 57 for the reading on prostate and scalp homogenates.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1527-3458.2006.00053.x/pdf

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I don't discount studies for the sake of trying to discount them. I am all about taking less drugs. My prescribing urologist started me on 5mg and said this will most likely eliminate prostate cancer. A urologist years later said it might eliminate some, but it is showing it might lead the ones left to be harder to fight. They are ALWAYS learning. I quit taking it then a couple years later started on 1mg for hair.

You do realize the study above is a phase 1 study at best? It shows nothing. 30 people and some blood work with no actual arrow pointing to show the effects it is having on the stated goal of this forum.

Even if the study had show to grow 80% of the hairs you say it did, and it never stated that, who that comes here wants anything less than the maximum outcome. People pay $10 to move a hair that you discount so easily. 1mg was found to be as beneficial a 5mg for saving hair. The study above somehow tells you that .2, .5, or whatever of a 1mg pill is 80% as effective. It doesn't seem to say that but again, take it for full benefit or don't take it. Not worth the risk.

As far as doctors go, its boring hearing non doctors dismiss them outright without even knowing the ones they speak of.

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/hair-loss-pdf/finasteride-doses.pdf

 

[californiaoceans911]

There isn't a study comparing 0.2 mg vs 1 mg for more than 24 weeks. Or 6 months. As far as I know. This will provide a clearer picture if lower doses do catch up to higher ones on an extended medication period.

Scalp DHT is not that important either. It's the follicular DHT levels that are more contributor towards miniaturization.

But on the other hand, I fail to see how 0.05 mg can suppress scalp DHT at the same magnitudes as higher doses, even though it doesn't suppress serum DHT nearly that much in comparison. The general consensus was that scalp DHT levels are difficult to measure properly. I believe there was an extensive discussion on this on one of the old threads, which Brian (rip) took part of.

The second thing is that finasteride molecules have higher affinity towards prostate tissue, compared to scalp tissue. So you would clearly need much higher doses (10 times if I'm not mistaken) to get the same amount of suppression. 5 mg of finasteride reduced prostate DHT by 90% but scalp tissue DHT by 25%, due to the large variable difference between their respective IC50s. But then again tying the first point. Scalp DHT doesn't mean much. Follicular IC50s might be much lower than the scalp skin, and even comparable to prostate tissue. But since they are both difficult to accurately measure, we tend to rely on difference in hair counts between doses as a good scientific hypothesis.

Go to page 57 for the reading on prostate and scalp homogenates.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1527-3458.2006.00053.x/pdf

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http://www.hairlosstalk.com/hair-loss-pdf/finasteride-doses.pdf

As you were writing this I read the paper on the prostate vs scalp reduction of DHT.

 

[aero1976]

As you were writing this I read the paper on the prostate vs scalp reduction of DHT.

Thats a lot of nothing. You have people cutting 1mg pills down to 10 pieces by pretending you can understand obscure drugs studies. If your not in jr high, your a horrible troll.

 

[californiaoceans911]

Thats a lot of nothing. You have people cutting 1mg pills down to 10 pieces by pretending you can understand obscure drugs studies. If your not in jr high, your a horrible troll.

Ok that's it, I tried to be pleasant and positive with you, but I'm over it. No wonder you have such a bad reputation rating. Goodbye dumb dumb.

 

[xRedStaRx]

Ok that's it, I tried to be pleasant and positive with you, but I'm over it. No wonder you have such a bad reputation rating. Goodbye dumb dumb.

He is obviously a troll who gets a rush out of annoying you. Don't feed him.

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As you were writing this I read the paper on the prostate vs scalp reduction of DHT.

The IC50 might be the reason lower micro doses may be slightly less effective than higher doses.

So even though micro doses achieve almost the same serum DHT level inhibition, due primarily to the slow 5-AR II turnover rate, the finasteride molecules might not actually reach the scalp area including the follicles as well as the prostate. So in that sense, serum DHT levels might not mean much in terms of hair efficacy. But since 0.2 mg was fairly close to 1 mg, I'd assume that ~0.5-0.625 mg was sufficent to reach a steady state concentration that was effective and plateauing at reducing follicular DHT, due to the logarithmic distribution of the dose-effect relationship. If that makes sense.

Don't get me wrong, 0.05-0.12 should still hold off male pattern baldness quite well in some individuals, assuming it cuts off DHT levels just enough below the threshold level of androgenization.

 

[Giann]

He is obviously a troll who gets a rush out of annoying you. Don't feed him.

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The IC50 might be the reason lower micro doses may be slightly less effective than higher doses.

So even though micro doses achieve almost the same serum DHT level inhibition, due primarily to the slow 5-AR II turnover rate, the finasteride molecules might not actually reach the scalp area including the follicles as well as the prostate. So in that sense, serum DHT levels might not mean much in terms of hair efficacy. But since 0.2 mg was fairly close to 1 mg, I'd assume that ~0.5-0.625 mg was sufficent to reach a steady state concentration that was effective and plateauing at reducing follicular DHT, due to the logarithmic distribution of the dose-effect relationship. If that makes sense.

Don't get me wrong, 0.05-0.12 should still hold off male pattern baldness quite well in some individuals, assuming it cuts off DHT levels just enough below the threshold level of androgenization.

Thanks guys for this very interesting read. Although some of the challenges brought fwd by some of the members felt a bit ad hominem, i believe it has push forward the discussion.

As you have done some research, i'd like to ask your thoughts on my experience and responses to the questions below:

Background:
I am a 33 year old male. I have been taking Propecia for c.8 years with good results (5mg cut in 4, c. 1.25mg per day). However, I have been suffering from (severe) erectile dysfunction - in other words, I cannot maintain or have a proper erection without v****.

Obviously, it has been very concerning but i have privileged my hair over my libido - I used v**** to keep my sexual life going.

I have recently decided to experiment with the dosage, the below is summary of the results:
- c. 3 weeks at 1mg, no significant changes
- c. 2 weeks at 0.625mg , i have noted a sharp amelioration in my libido and erectile function.

Questions:
- Is the fact that the drug impact less my libido a sign that my hairloss will be catching up with me? Of course, i would not want this and i am trying to find the optimal dosage for me that balances both. Any advice as to what should be the dosage between 0.625mg and 1mg that can have a maximum impact?
- You discussed the effectiveness of 0.2mg, 0.32mg (0.625EOD) and 0.5mg. How about the effectiveness of 0.75mg dose? same question for 0.85mg?
- I have always considered the side effects as an evidence of the drug working on me with regard to the slowdown of my hair loss. In contrast to that, should I consider that a reduction of the side effects on a 0.625mg dose as an evidence of the drug reduced effectiveness on my hairloss?
- any advice as to how i should cut my propecia 5 mg to get an even distribution? (i use a pill cutter)
- any other advice?

 

[californiaoceans911]

Questions:
- Is the fact that the drug impact less my libido a sign that my hairloss will be catching up with me? Of course, i would not want this and i am trying to find the optimal dosage for me that balances both. Any advice as to what should be the dosage between 0.625mg and 1mg that can have a maximum impact?

First off, you went 8 years ED for your hair??? :wow:

I'm not sure that it is a sign that your hairloss will be catching up with you. I think the nuances in the dosage of this drug are still not well understood.

- You discussed the effectiveness of 0.2mg, 0.32mg (0.625EOD) and 0.5mg. How about the effectiveness of 0.75mg dose? same question for 0.85mg?
- I have always considered the side effects as an evidence of the drug working on me with regard to the slowdown of my hair loss. In contrast to that, should I consider that a reduction of the side effects on a 0.625mg dose as an evidence of the drug reduced effectiveness on my hairloss?

There are studies showing that doses as low as 0.04 mg will lower your DHT levels almost equal to taking 1 mg and more. However, I believe the only study comparing HAIR COUNT showed that 0.01 mg is basically the same as placebo and that 0.2 mg is nearly as effective at regrowth as 1 mg (80% in comparison). Now keep in mind both 0.2 mg and 1 mg REGREW hair. Not much is known about doses in between 0.01 mg and 0.2 mg for maintaining hair or regrowing hair, unfortunately.

To me if 0.625 mg made your libido increase, it might be a mental thing that made you feel more supercharged? I dunno. To me 0.625 mg and 1 mg should be almost identical in keeping your hair. Just because your side effects went away that doesn't mean it isn't still saving your hair. That's urban myth or anecdotal at best. Just because you don't get side effects that also doesn't mean it isn't working as I know many take 1 mg with zero side effects.

- any advice as to how i should cut my propecia 5 mg to get an even distribution? (i use a pill cutter)
- any other advice?

Your PROSCAR (or generic finasteride) 5mg would be difficult to microdose. Personally I get Activis generic finasteride from Costco for $26, that's 90 pills of 1 mg. Super cheap. If you want to go to lower doses, I suggest you start buying 1 mg pills and not 5 mg pills. 1 mg pills are hard enough already to cut.

My last advice would be to go to a lower dose (say half of the 0.625 mg that you're on now) and try that for a while to see if you start losing your hair again. I don't think you will. Also you can see if that further helps your libido.

 

[Quantum Cat]

this is nothing new. It's been known for years that doses lower than 1mg will likely suppress enough DHT to prevent male pattern baldness.

but why bother going to the trouble? It's unlikely to make any difference on potential side effects, since you still need to suppress enough DHT to make it worthwhile taking the drug in the first place

 

[xRedStaRx]

this is nothing new. It's been known for years that doses lower than 1mg will likely suppress enough DHT to prevent male pattern baldness.

but why bother going to the trouble? It's unlikely to make any difference on potential side effects, since you still need to suppress enough DHT to make it worthwhile taking the drug in the first place

It can make a difference for side effects. You are assuming that

1) Serum DHT is an important or complete measure.

2) Side effects arise only from DHT inhibition

3) Finasteide's local availability is the same to all tissue.

For a personal observation. There was a night and day difference between EOD of 1.25mg & 0.625mg.

 

[californiaoceans911]

It can make a difference for side effects. You are assuming that

1) Serum DHT is an important or complete measure.

2) Side effects arise only from DHT inhibition

3) Finasteide's local availability is the same to all tissue.

For a personal observation. There was a night and day difference between EOD of 1.25mg & 0.625mg.

For me, the first day I took 0.5 mg, and my body freaked the F out. I waited a week and have been taking 0.125 ED. Felt sexually deflated for a few days but on day 4 or 5 my libido popped back. I have had no DHT itching and my hair stopped falling out excessively in the shower (went from 100+ hairs when I shampoo to about a dozen).

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this is nothing new. It's been known for years that doses lower than 1mg will likely suppress enough DHT to prevent male pattern baldness.

but why bother going to the trouble? It's unlikely to make any difference on potential side effects, since you still need to suppress enough DHT to make it worthwhile taking the drug in the first place

I was simply answering the gentleman's question and giving him my personal opinion, that's all

 

[Mach]

I cut my 5mg pills into 4s. Turn those pills on their side and cut again. You're cutting down on the white section. You now have 8 pills.

I'm ok with 1.25mg but I do have a fear of my sex life slowly going away and not noticing it. I am going for PRP injections soon. Sorry I have no evidence that this is the right think to do and unfortunately hair takes forever to grow.