My Hair Is Back To Baseline For A Second Time During My 1.5 Years On finasteride. Should I Add dutasteride Or Wait?

[chappaquiddick]

About 10 months in my hair went to sh*t and went back to baseline but it rebounded. Now it seems to be doing it again.

 

[AnxiousAndy]

Stay with it. Don't add in dutasteride. Believe it or not you are a success story. I dropped below baseline and never recovered.

 

[AnxiousAndy]

@AnxiousAndy : No gyno with topical estradiol ?

Some mild puffiness of my nipples but no serious breast development. I'm not on an anti androgen mind you ( yet ) so I don't expect much breast growth until then. How's your hair man?

 

[AnxiousAndy]

@AnxiousAndy : Worse than ever ... Cyproterone 50mg + Estradiol oral and topical were a big mistake ... Dutasteride 1 to 2 mg was my cure. But after dropping CPA/ETD and taking back Dutasteride like before, it's not working as good. Because of Reflex Hyperandrogenicity ? I think so ...
And now I have boobs, they are still here after at least a month without CPA ... A disaster !
If your regimen is not working, try Dutasteride ... I hope it won't kill your libido, and only give you mass of hair.

I'm sorry to hear that I can't take dutasteride because I'm scared my hairline will get a lot worse than it already is. I don't think you should have dropped your regimen. Theoretically and mostly in practice you should be regrowing hair. Maybe the loss is due to telogen effluvium?
I've read the article on wikipedia about hyperandrogenicity and it states the characteristic hallmark of the condition is the abnormal increase of the male sex hormone ( testosterone and DHT ) which we all already know is bad for hair. So by using these anti androgen its doing the exact opposite of what hyperandrogenicity represents. Telogen effluvium would be common in this circumstance since you likely have enough hair to notice the change, the ones that are falling are probably the ones affected by T and DHT so are falling to eventually regrow thicker months later. I'm obviously no scientist or anyone academically credible but looking at the information we got, in the long term you should at the very least stop balding. Keep going on if you can handle the sides, you might surprise yourself.

 

[AnxiousAndy]

@AnxiousAndy : I lowered Dutasteride, didn't stopped it. I took "only" 0.5mg a day ... I was hoping Dutasteride + Cyproterone + Estradiol would give me regrowth. Because the success of AntiDHTor and bridgeburn I thought it was possible and not too risky. I was wrong.
Dutasteride is still the best.
I don't have high testosterone/DHT levels, but my androgen receptors are now a way tooo much sensitive to Testosterone/DHT, even if they are very low (like when I was on CPA/ETD). My androgen receptors are sensitive ... but only those on the scalp (and maybe prostate), I still have a baby face with no beard).
I can't decide for you, and maybe it could be a mistake. But I don't think Estradiol is the best way to cure baldness, Dutasteride is. But you could end with androgen receptors upregualtion, but I think it's a very rare reaction.
I hope you will find something that works for you, without giving you boobs or killing your sexdrive.

I'm not convinced using these drugs increase androgen receptors. There is no reason why that could happen. Look at prepubescent children as an example. No kid before puberty develops male pattern baldness and they have little to no androgens in their system so why when puberty starts these receptors can suddenly decide to upregulate? It makes no sense. I'm not even sure AR's can upregulate, I've never seen or heard of a study ( unless someone can provide proof otherwise )that shows this. I'm balding fast myself but something just doesn't add up about this whole phenomenon. Either you are having an adverse reaction and actually increasing T and DHT or you're suffering from Telogen Effluvium. I'm not trans but I've read many stories of trans people losing ground/shedding on these regimens and never heard of them eventually ending up bald.. These people would be likely to come back and say so if they did given the fact trans people aren't completely accepted in society yet.

 

[AnxiousAndy]

I'm not saying androgen receptors upregulate after puberty ... but when you take some drugs that alter hormones levels, or when you grow old.
Old men have high risk of prostate cancer even if their testosterone is lowering ... why ? Because I truly think, for some guys, lack of testosterone can make them more sensitive to androgens. Same things with guys who don't respond to androgen-deprivation for prostate cancer ... their androgen receptors are starving for testosterone/DHT so they try to catch as much as androgen they can catch. I'm not saying my case applies to everyone else, but I know reflex hyperandrogenicity is real and can happen, and makes things worse, by far.
Before my CPA journey, taking 1 to 2mg of Dutasteride made me totally impotent. Now ... it's like I'm only taking 0.5mg ... because of my androgen receptors being too much sensitive. I can't prove it with scientific facts, but I know it can happens.
But I still think you should try Dutasteride, even if it can be risky in a long term use ... but there only a small chance you get "reflex hyperandrogenicity" (I wrote it again for google bots).
I saw some trans women losing hair even on CPA who never lost hair before HRT.
When I was on CPA (and "only" 0.5mg dutasteride) my T was really really low, under female ranges actually ... And my itchy scalp was insane, never had that before.
DHT must be killed, not by lowering testosterone or using estradiol.
But you do as you want, and maybe you're right to do so.
@chappaquiddick : sorry I have hijacked your thread.

Old men have a higher risk because they have been exposed to testosterone for far longer than a younger guy, so I'm not sure why you think its due to AR upregulation? Even if it was due to that then how are the hair follicles exclusively affected? Its not even a defining male characteristic. It should increase body and facial hair growth, libido, free testosterone and increase DHT. Not to mention lead to leaner muscles and easier muscle gain, NO gyno and better errections. I'm not saying your hair didn't go to sh*t after your regimen change, I'm just saying that you probably dropped out before the hairs could grow properly and mature thus turning an early grown terminal hair right back into a vellus hair.

@chappaquiddick Sorry I hijacked your thread too.

 

[bridgeburn]

@AnxiousAndy @itchymadscalp I'm going to give another idea as well.. According to pubmed, studies show that prolactin puts hair in early catagen phase. Prolactin however, does reduce T and Dht. CPA increases prolactin sometimes quite a lot. From what i've read our scalp has receptors for
endocannobinoids: catagen
prolactin: catagen
androgen: catagen
estrogen: anagen
melatonin: anagen

not sure if I trust the studies since people do regrow with cpa and bob marley smoked tons of weed, but everybody is different. I believe androgen receptor upregulation is possible since tolerance and resistance applies to almost anything in life to a certain extant.

also, A number of experimental data indicate that hyperprolactinemia inhibits the activity of 5-alpha-reductase. Prolactin also inhibits GnRH which reduces the release ofLutenizing hormone, ( LH increases T production) BUT I have read that it upregulates Lutenizing Receptors in Leydig Cells (cells in testis that make T) So, in theory it could decrease LH but increase sensitivity to LH

 

[whatevr]

@AnxiousAndy @itchymadscalp I'm going to give another idea as well.. According to pubmed, studies show that prolactin puts hair in early catagen phase. Prolactin however, does reduce T and Dht. CPA increases prolactin sometimes quite a lot. From what i've read our scalp has receptors for
endocannobinoids: catagen
prolactin: catagen
androgen: catagen
estrogen: anagen
melatonin: anagen

not sure if I trust the studies since people do regrow with cpa and bob marley smoked tons of weed, but everybody is different. I believe androgen receptor upregulation is possible since tolerance and resistance applies to almost anything in life to a certain extant.

also, A number of experimental data indicate that hyperprolactinemia inhibits the activity of 5-alpha-reductase. Prolactin also inhibits GnRH which reduces the release ofLutenizing hormone, ( LH increases T production) BUT I have read that it upregulates Lutenizing Receptors in Leydig Cells (cells in testis that make T) So, in theory it could decrease LH but increase sensitivity to LH

Androgen receptor upregulation definitely happens. Here's an anecdotal example:
My normal libido: 100%
Morning after applying 75 mg RU58841 overnight: 40-50%
48 hours after RU58841 (RU is out of system): 150-175%

So RU occupying the receptor will cause them to upregulate, and after it clears the receptor they will be on high-fire mode for a while until they downregulate again. This is why it's also unadvisable to use antiandrogens irregularly (you create AR spikes which wreak havoc on hair cycles and cause shedding). Either use it daily, or not at all.

As far as prolactin, I think P5P (pyridoxal 5 phosphate) can lower it. But I haven't noticed much results from that.

 

[KSA]

fascinating. do you think ARs could be up-regulated forever after extended exposure to AR blockers?

 

[itchymadscalp]

fascinating. do you think ARs could be up-regulated forever after extended exposure to AR blockers?

My idea is that ARs can be downregulated with high testosterone (I know, on steroids forums they say the opposite). But I don't think it can work with everybody, only for those who have their ARs upregulated

 

[KSA]

My idea is that ARs can be downregulated with high testosterone (I know, on steroids forums they say the opposite). But I don't think it can work with everybody, only for those who have their ARs upregulated

Interesting.. I wonder what that means for me - I took Flutamide for many years and it of course increased my testosterone like crazy, and now I'm trying out Spironolactone that is much weaker. My worry was did Flutamide permanently increase my sensitivity? Did it not alter it at all? I can't be sure since when I went off my testosterone level was 1700ng/dl and now it's probably 700-800ng/dl so I don't know.

 

[Sliceofbread]

My idea is that ARs can be downregulated with high testosterone (I know, on steroids forums they say the opposite). But I don't think it can work with everybody, only for those who have their ARs upregulated

Hey itchymadscalp I need some advice. I started propecia for a few days and stopped a few times because I was very fickle about deciding if I wanted to take it.... first time only thing I noticed was dry eyes and mild ed. Second time oily skin and normal libido, when I stopped second time I had itchy scalp, tried third time I had very oily skin... when I stopped that time I had a feeling like lava on my head... itchy scalp has gone away pretty much with time. I’m trying seti first now, but if that doesn’t work do you think I should try propecia or duta or ru or something like topical daro?

Also have you thought about using topical daro? I think it could cure you

 

[itsjustsimon]

My idea is that ARs can be downregulated with high testosterone (I know, on steroids forums they say the opposite). But I don't think it can work with everybody, only for those who have their ARs upregulated

Why would it be downregulated? That makes no sense.

Even if we go that way of thinking, people who are on high testosterone doses + high doses of dutasteride should have a perfect hair, but from personal experience I can say that's far from the truth.

 

[Sliceofbread]

@KSA : I really don't know. Sorry I can't help you.

@Sliceofbread : I can't recommend to take RU, Daro ... because we don't know if it's safe or not.
Maybe you are prone to androgen receptors upregulation, maybe not. If you're not sure and worried about that ... maybe you keep going with Seti and only that.
Sorry I cannot say more, because I don't want to encourage you to take RU, Daro, or fina again ... maybe it could be very bad, .... or not at all. I really don't know. Be careful, I regret I took Fina ... Duta ... Bica ... Cypro ... each drugs made things worse. I'm starting again because I'm crazy and desperate.

What are you starting up on? 2.5mg duta?

Didn’t you do great on duta for awhile, I’m thinking of trying that

 

[Sliceofbread]

Why would it be downregulated? That makes no sense.

Even if we go that way of thinking, people who are on high testosterone doses + high doses of dutasteride should have a perfect hair, but from personal experience I can say that's far from the truth.

Because you over saturate them, it sounds plausible that the mRNA transcription would be down regulated and there would be less expression of the receptor protein

 

[Retinoid]

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/01/150107204449.htm

"In a surprising paradox, the male hormone testosterone, generally thought to be a feeder of prostate cancer, has been found to suppress some advanced prostate cancers and also may reverse resistance to testosterone-blocking drugs used to treat prostate cancer."

There was also a study where TESTOSTERONE given to females with alopecia actually grew hair. Testosterone probably does not play a role in male pattern baldness as the pseudohermaphordites lacking 5AR2 have normal testosterone but no male pattern baldness.

 

[Sliceofbread]

There was also a study where TESTOSTERONE given to females with alopecia actually grew hair. Testosterone probably does not play a role in male pattern baldness as the pseudohermaphordites lacking 5AR2 have normal testosterone but no male pattern baldness.

How’s your hair doing man?

 

[Sliceofbread]

Yeah Dutasteride 1 to 2mg was great for a while .... but no libido. I wanted to try something else. "Only" 0.5mg Dutasteride + 12.5 (and 25mg) Cyproterone + estradiol (Yeah I'm crazy). And it was a disaster.

I think I may try it at some point... I guess if seti doesn’t work...

Pretty sure with my diffuse thinning I’ll be like nw4a or even nw6 in a few years if I just do nothing...

 

[bridgeburn]

There was also a study where TESTOSTERONE given to females with alopecia actually grew hair.

there is also a study which says women have more aromatase in thier scalps