More Propecia Side Effects Discussions

[to the lost]

I think that a lot of people start taking finasteride in hopes of experiencing no side effects. Logic tells me that reducing DHT HAS to cause a side effect in one form or another, but I could be wrong I guess. The big one being sexual sides - although not the only thing you should worry about obviously, its something that should be treated carefully of course. So has anybody out there been on finasteride for a decent amount of time and experienced a) no sides or b) no sexual sides?

Also, where other then your hair is DHT produced and why is It a necessity within your body? This is more for general knowledge.

I'd be grateful for any responses! Thanks guys!

I can just respond to the general question. well, the question is wrong, DHT is not produced "in your hair", it just has some effect on it.

first there are 3 types of 5 AR (the enzime that converts Testosterone to DHT); they all have some importance. finasteride blocks the 5 AR (not DHT, lower DHT is just a cause of inhibited 5 AR). So if finasteride is really selective 5 AR type II blocer, than the worst sides would be sexsual. If it blocks type I also, than that means less allopregnanolone (if wikipedia is righ and allo comes just with type I), wich is rather important neurosteroid (they all are). If it block type III also, thay I am not sure what is the treat (but i would redirect you to the topic of user science on hairloss help)

as far as sides, my logic is also like your - in theory everone shold have side, if the hairloss has stoped. But obviously that's not the case, i can try to explain with selective type II 5 AR inhibitor, but that doesent explain permanent sides..so go figure. there is no scientific explanation to this so far, everthing else is a guess

- - - Updated - - -

well there has to be objective way to evaluate side.. people are reporting a day of nut pai - that's not a real side. it can be contributed to finasteride, but how do u really know. like i have nut pain sometimes and that completly normal; if you take nutt pain for evaluation, than you should have evaluate it when you where not on finasteride (like for 2 montsh, how many times did you have nutt pain; and how did it change on finasteride)

but ofc if you have nutt pain ever day and it's getting worse, ****, get off the drug. common sense.

(just an example, I am not saying anything agains - or pro - finasteride)

 

[Fanjeera]

I can just respond to the general question. well, the question is wrong, DHT is not produced "in your hair", it just has some effect on it.

first there are 3 types of 5 AR (the enzime that converts Testosterone to DHT); they all have some importance. finasteride blocks the 5 AR (not DHT, lower DHT is just a cause of inhibited 5 AR). So if finasteride is really selective 5 AR type II blocer, than the worst sides would be sexsual. If it blocks type I also, than that means less allopregnanolone (if wikipedia is righ and allo comes just with type I), wich is rather important neurosteroid (they all are). If it block type III also, thay I am not sure what is the treat (but i would redirect you to the topic of user science on hairloss help)

as far as sides, my logic is also like your - in theory everone shold have side, if the hairloss has stoped. But obviously that's not the case, i can try to explain with selective type II 5 AR inhibitor, but that doesent explain permanent sides..so go figure. there is no scientific explanation to this so far, everthing else is a guess

- - - Updated - - -

well there has to be objective way to evaluate side.. people are reporting a day of nut pai - that's not a real side. it can be contributed to finasteride, but how do u really know. like i have nut pain sometimes and that completly normal; if you take nutt pain for evaluation, than you should have evaluate it when you where not on finasteride (like for 2 montsh, how many times did you have nutt pain; and how did it change on finasteride)

but ofc if you have nutt pain ever day and it's getting worse, ****, get off the drug. common sense.

(just an example, I am not saying anything agains - or pro - finasteride)

Wiki isn't right... There have already been 2 studies showing that allopregnanolone levels drop in finasteride users.
And again I'm posting this study just to be sure everyone understands what they're dealing: http://www.hindawi.com/journals/au/2012/530121/
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/au/2012/530121/tab2/ -- here you can see that finasteride and dutasteride are both most selective to 5ar3 actually, so that enzyme gets hit the most definitely. IC means inhibitory concentration: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IC50
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/au/2012/530121/tab3/ -- here you can see what tissues exactly are touched by finasteride based on the research done 'til today (and yes, the brain is listed!). Keep in mind you should count in the ones with 5ar2 and 5ar3 both! But I'm pretty sure they haven't looked at every tiny piece of the human, like the corpus cavernosum. They should.
NB! Note that 5ar3 is also in the mammary gland. That's the reason why people develop gyno probably. I also posted a study showing that 5ar2 is in there too, but the post got deleted.
So before you say there's no scientific explanation to something make sure you know the science!

 

[Wuffer]

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/au/2012/530121/tab3/ -- here you can see what tissues exactly are touched by finasteride based on the research done 'til today (and yes, the brain is listed!). Keep in mind you should count in the ones with 5ar2 and 5ar3 both!

The only one that lists 'brain' under 5ar2 says that the enzyme is NOT expressed in the brain. Another extremely small study (20 tissue samples) showed 5ar3 expressed in the brain. As it is, this is hardly conclusive, and extremely preliminary.

Speaking to 5ar3 specifically however, I found this interesting: "Finasteride inhibits 5α-R2 and 5α-R3 with similar potency (IC50 = 14.3 nM, 17.4 nM, resp.). Dutasteride is a more potent inhibitor of 5α-R3 than finasteride (IC50 = 0.33 nM)"

If this is indeed the case, why is finasteride causing all the problems? Dutasteride is doing basically the exact same thing, but much more efficiently. If finasteride is wreaking havok on neurosteroids, dutasteride would be much worse and we would expect to see quite obvious symptoms. However, in controlled studies, side effects are virtually identical between the two drugs.

There is a LOT of contradictory evidence about this, which is why I insist that reaching conclusions without any targeted studies is just conjecture at this point.

Note that 5ar3 is also in the mammary gland. That's the reason why people develop gyno probably.

This makes no sense. Why would breast tissue develop if the enzyme is inhibited? If this were the case, all tissues with 5ar3 would develop extra tissue. Men develop gyno because of increased estrogen levels. This is why it occurs more frequently in older men. This is why finasteride can cause it as well.

 

[Fanjeera]

No, cerebral cortex is also the brain -- it's the outer layer of it. And there are pyramidal cells that have more 5ar2 than 5ar1 as you can see. And pituitary is also considered a part of the brain. Of course it's not evenly across the whole organ. The brain consists of many-many other different components and you have to look at it more accurately. So read the study again and define every single term you're not aware of.
You should learn some biology. Mammary gland is a gland -- it's a very plastic organ and very hormone dependent. The liver in the other hand is more independent and doesn't certainly depend on sex hormones only. You will see changes in tissues that are more sensitive to these kind of changes. For example, I wouldn't worry about the gastrointestinal tract either, as that organ system is regulated by many other hormones, 5-alpha-reductasin isn't probably that important there and it renews itself a lot. The tissues are very different and so is the outcome of 5ar inhibiting in them. A very blunt illustration: if you'd stab fat tissue with a knife, you wouldn't see the same changes you would see, if you did this to bone for example. But yes, I guess there are some tissues prone to change due to this drug and that's the most worrysome part of the permanence of the side effets, as these things really don't seem to be reversible. I always like to point out this study: http://www.asiaandro.com/archive/1008-682X/5/33.htm I still don't see why wouldn't humans get such change in their penises, so I'm probably ending up doing a similar study myself.
As I've read studies that finasteride doesn't raise estradiol, which doesn't seem logical, but you have to believe the research too sometimes, it seems like a good theory that lack of just androgen function is causing the excess buildup of fat there. If there's 5ar in the tissue, it means most likely that testosterone manifests itself through dihydrotestosterone there. You block the function testosterone in that tissue with 5ar inhibitors. Atleast that's what we're thought in school in the whole metabolism sequence of testosterone: in the blood it's testosterone and in the tissues a big part of it becomes dihydrotestosterone.

 

[casperz]

I'm not sure that anyone that has been on finasteride long term would know they were having side effects, I know I did not. I was taking finasteride from 2007 to 2012 and it was not until I stopped that I realized how bad it was. It's a slow progression and it sneaks up on you, I chalked up how I was feeling to getting older but wow... I felt 20 years younger within weeks of stopping finasteride. I'll never take any oral anti-DHT again.

I want to also add, that I was one of the guys who thought the side effects were all in the mind during that time, unless I've gone bonkers I'm
pretty sure they are real.

 

[Quantum Cat]

I'm not sure that anyone that has been on finasteride long term would know they were having side effects, I know I did not. I was taking finasteride from 2007 to 2012 and it was not until I stopped that I realized how bad it was. It's a slow progression and it sneaks up on you, I chalked up how I was feeling to getting older but wow... I felt 20 years younger within weeks of stopping finasteride. I'll never take any oral anti-DHT again.

I want to also add, that I was one of the guys who thought the side effects were all in the mind during that time, unless I've gone bonkers I'm
pretty sure they are real.

so you experienced extreme lethargy while on finasteride? Did it stop immediately once you stopped taking it?

 

[Allen Parks]

Speaking to 5ar3 specifically however, I found this interesting: "Finasteride inhibits 5α-R2 and 5α-R3 with similar potency (IC50 = 14.3 nM, 17.4 nM, resp.). Dutasteride is a more potent inhibitor of 5α-R3 than finasteride (IC50 = 0.33 nM)"

If this is indeed the case, why is finasteride causing all the problems? Dutasteride is doing basically the exact same thing, but much more efficiently. If finasteride is wreaking havok on neurosteroids, dutasteride would be much worse and we would expect to see quite obvious symptoms. However, in controlled studies, side effects are virtually identical between the two drugs.

My God. Have you no shame? So much is wrong with this. First of all, the makers of Avodart say don't take the results from avodart's clinical trials to draw conclusions from other drugs. They warned the armchair scientists out there. Apparently, you didn't get the message.

Secondly, in the dutasteride "controlled studies," there were clearly sexual problems that persisted after discontinuation. Described and warned about in the Avodart Patient Information insert. Since you say the two drugs "controlled studies" are "virtually identical" then you have to conclude that the finasteride "controlled studies" identified sexual problems that persist after discontinuation. Yet, in the past, you've been adamant that there have been no datum that suggest finasteride can cause side effects after discontinuation.

 

[Wuffer]

First of all, the makers of Avodart

GlaxoSmithKline...

say don't take the results from avodart's clinical trials to draw conclusions from other drugs.

Where did GSK say this?

Secondly, in the dutasteride "controlled studies," there were clearly sexual problems that persisted after discontinuation. Described and warned about in the Avodart Patient Information insert. Since you say the two drugs "controlled studies" are "virtually identical" then you have to conclude that the finasteride "controlled studies" identified sexual problems that persist after discontinuation.

I'm not talking about rare cases of persistent sexual dysfunction, or even sexual dysfunction in general. One would expect chronic lowered allo levels be associated with conditions such as anxiety, depression, "brain fog", and possibly neurodegenerative disorders like alzheimer's. finasteride (arguably) lowers brain allo levels a certain amount, but dutasteride lowers it significantly more. If this is what was actually happening, you would expect to see these conditions occur much more frequently in people who take dutasteride, but that isn't the case. Side effect profiles between the two drugs are almost identical. These conditions almost never show up in placebo controlled studies, and you would be hard pressed to even find case reports.

Yet, in the past, you've been adamant that there have been no datum that suggest finasteride can cause side effects after discontinuation.

Inadvertently, you just admitted here that you were a previous member here since you are so familiar with my posting history. But regardless, yes, that was my stance in the past, based on the evidence available... but my stance since changed. Like a year ago.

 

[thiswomps]

I'm not sure that anyone that has been on finasteride long term would know they were having side effects, I know I did not. I was taking finasteride from 2007 to 2012 and it was not until I stopped that I realized how bad it was. It's a slow progression and it sneaks up on you, I chalked up how I was feeling to getting older but wow... I felt 20 years younger within weeks of stopping finasteride. I'll never take any oral anti-DHT again.

I want to also add, that I was one of the guys who thought the side effects were all in the mind during that time, unless I've gone bonkers I'm
pretty sure they are real.

What were the side effects? I'm going into this using my best judgement and avoiding this "all in the mind" stuff. I'm taking the facts. I've been experiencing lethargy but other then that I'm good.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, I've been reading that finastride Is known to cause depression. Anyone think its possible that sexual sides are a result of depression as well? Thoughts?

 

[Allen Parks]

GlaxoSmithKline...




Where did GSK say this?




I'm not talking about rare cases of persistent sexual dysfunction, or even sexual dysfunction in general. One would expect chronic lowered allo levels be associated with conditions such as anxiety, depression, "brain fog", and possibly neurodegenerative disorders like alzheimer's. finasteride (arguably) lowers brain allo levels a certain amount, but dutasteride lowers it significantly more. If this is what was actually happening, you would expect to see these conditions occur much more frequently in people who take dutasteride, but that isn't the case. Side effect profiles between the two drugs are almost identical. These conditions almost never show up in placebo controlled studies, and you would be hard pressed to even find case reports.




Inadvertently, you just admitted here that you were a previous member here since you are so familiar with my posting history. But regardless, yes, that was my stance in the past, based on the evidence available... but my stance since changed. Like a year ago.

Wuffer, at least read the drug's website before commenting on it. It's cool if you don't know anything about statistical methodology. But don't comment on things you obviously know nothing about.

Wuffer plays armchair scientist....

"If this is indeed the case, why is finasteride causing all the problems? Dutasteride is doing basically the exact same thing, but much more efficiently. If finasteride is wreaking havok on neurosteroids, dutasteride would be much worse and we would expect to see quite obvious symptoms. However, in controlled studies, side effects are virtually identical between the two drugs."

.....Despite GSK telling him not to......

"Because clinical trials are conducted under widely varying conditions, adverse reaction
rates observed in the clinical trials of a drug cannot be directly compared with rates in the
clinical trial of another drug and may not reflect the rates observed in practice." www.avodart.com

Wuffer tells us we'd be "hard pressed" to find case reports from post-marketing surveillance.....

"Side effect profiles between the two drugs are almost identical. These conditions almost never show up in placebo controlled studies, and you would be hard pressed to even find case reports."

...Despite GSK telling him not to draw conclusions about the frequency of side effects from Post-Marketing Surveillance.

"Because these reactions are reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain
size, it is not always possible to reliably estimate their frequency or establish a causal
relationship to drug exposure. These reactions have been chosen for inclusion due to a
combination of their seriousness, frequency of reporting, or potential causal connection to
AVODART."

Please stop embarrassing yourself. It's clear you're not trained in this stuff. Stop making dubious statements like "one would expect" [who?].

I didn't "inadvertenly" admit to anything. It is possible to know about member's posting history without registering.

 

[Quantum Cat]

Also, I've been reading that finastride Is known to cause depression. Anyone think its possible that sexual sides are a result of depression as well? Thoughts?

Yes low libido can definitely be an effect of depression and anxiety. But a hell of a lot of things can cause depression

it's theorised depression may be one of Finasteride's side effects, but it hasn't been proven AFAIK - they're arguing about this down in the side effects forum right now.

think about this though: what is the most major side effect of going bald? Massive anxiety and depression of course. so you have to weigh up the lesser of two evils

 

[Quantum Cat]

Please stop embarrassing yourself. It's clear you're not trained in this stuff.

what's your formal training, out of interest?

I didn't "inadvertenly" admit to anything. It is possible to know about member's posting history without registering.

we all know who you are. All it would take is one 'report post' click to have you banned again. Even if you're using a proxy to mask your IP, there's more than enough evidence - so you'd better behave, and treat people with respect (and stop shilling propecialawsuithelp.com!)

 

[Wuffer]

Allen, I was engaging in conjecture, much as Fanjeera was doing. Did I ever suggest I was trained to make medically sound statements? I am not trained in this, and I doubt you are either. You don't need to be medically trained to make sound, logical conclusions. I never stated anything as fact. If you have a specific problem with the reasoning in my conjecture, please tell me why you disagree. If I stated things as FACT based on my non-medically trained opinion, then I would be an armchair scientist. Take a look at propeciahelp for some good examples of this. Fanjeera has done this as well; stated things as fact based on his interpretation, which is why I called him out.

Again, if you have SPECIFIC problems with my conjecture, tell me why you don't think it's logical. If all you can say is "you are wrong", then please go away: you aren't contributing to the discussion and basically just posting irrelevant garbage for the sake of arguing.

 

[thiswomps]

Yes low libido can definitely be an effect of depression and anxiety. But a hell of a lot of things can cause depression it's theorised depression may be one of Finasteride's side effects, but it hasn't been proven AFAIK - they're arguing about this down in the side effects forum right now. think about this though: what is the most major side effect of going bald? Massive anxiety and depression of course. so you have to weigh up the lesser of two evils

True enough. What got me thinking about this is actually the Finastride wiki article, which states the following:

"Finasteride has been found to robustly induce depressive and anxious behaviors in animals.[28] Accordingly, its clinical use has been associated with depression and anxiety in both men and women in at least several reports in the medical literature.[29] In one study, at a dose of 1 mg per day, finasteride induced moderate to severe depression in 19 of 23 or 83% of participants, notably including all of the female patients.[11] In addition, marked anxiety occurred comorbidly with the depressive symptoms in some cases. Another study with a larger sample size of 128 men, though no women, also at a dose of 1 mg per day, found that finasteride increased both BDI and HADS depression scores significantly.[30] It also increased HADS anxiety scores, though this was not found to be statistically significant. The authors concluded that finasteride should be prescribed cautiously to patients at a high risk of depression. In late 2010, Merck revised the label of its Propecia formulation of finasteride in the United States and Canada to add depression to the list of possible side effects.[31] In August 2012, a study of 61 former users of finasteride with persistent sexual side effects found that 75% of them showed significantly higher rates of depressive symptoms relative to a control group. Of the treated men, 36% had severe symptoms, 28% had moderate symptoms, and 11% had mild symptoms. In addition, 44% of these men reported suicidal ideation. In the control group of 29 men, 10% showed depressive symptoms, with all of these cases being mild, and 3% reported thoughts of suicide. It was concluded that finasteride may cause symptoms of depression and suicidal ideation in some persons which can persist even after discontinuation of treatment.[32][33]"


Before someone jumps at me with "wikipedia isn't that credible", I know, its for discussions sake. Personally, I did feel down for a few days, but now I'm fine. I have dealt with major depression in the past and know when its becoming severe. Right now I'm very stable, but this apparent study had me thinking a bit.

Also, as far as sexual sides, is the problem for some more in getting an erection, or low libido? Do they come hand in hand or can you get a strong erection but have not much of a drive? I'm thinking one can happen without the other but I'm more looking for experiences and the general consensus (if their is one).

 

[Wuffer]

Wikipedia is generally a really good source, but there are also a lot of agenda pushers out there that want to badmouth things. Finasteride is a really good example if you read the edit histories, but the editors seem pretty good at weeding out the garbage, so to speak.

I'm not familiar with the first study you posted (with females) but the August 2012 one referenced is laughably poor. It essentially looked at 61 men who claim to have persistent side effects from the drug, and then tested their levels of depression. No surprise, these guys were really depressed. But instead of making the logical conclusion that these men were depressed because of their sexual dysfunction, the author concludes that finasteride was somehow DIRECTLY responsible for their depression. Such a blatantly ridiculous study IMO.

finasteride probably can cause depression and anxiety, but like was mentioned, it's probably only going to happen to people who are at a risk for it anyway. Personally, I dealt with sever anxiety and depression for years in my 20's. I got over it completely a few years before I started finasteride, but I haven't had a recurrence of any depressive symptoms after 2 years on the drug. I figure if anyone is at risk, it would be someone like me. Take that anecdotal story with a grain of salt, but for me personally eases my mind about the whole thing.

 

[Allen Parks]

Wuffer, it's hard to take you seriously when you say things like "These (mental side effects) conditions almost never show up in placebo controlled studies, and you would be hard pressed to even find case reports." A quick look shows that these conditions do show up in clinical trials, and in high numbers too. Much higher than the sexual side effects.

 

[thiswomps]

Wikipedia is generally a really good source, but there are also a lot of agenda pushers out there that want to badmouth things. Finasteride is a really good example if you read the edit histories, but the editors seem pretty good at weeding out the garbage, so to speak.

I'm not familiar with the first study you posted (with females) but the August 2012 one referenced is laughably poor. It essentially looked at 61 men who claim to have persistent side effects from the drug, and then tested their levels of depression. No surprise, these guys were really depressed. But instead of making the logical conclusion that these men were depressed because of their sexual dysfunction, the author concludes that finasteride was somehow DIRECTLY responsible for their depression. Such a blatantly ridiculous study IMO.

finasteride probably can cause depression and anxiety, but like was mentioned, it's probably only going to happen to people who are at a risk for it anyway. Personally, I dealt with sever anxiety and depression for years in my 20's. I got over it completely a few years before I started finasteride, but I haven't had a recurrence of any depressive symptoms after 2 years on the drug. I figure if anyone is at risk, it would be someone like me. Take that anecdotal story with a grain of salt, but for me personally eases my mind about the whole thing.

Good points. I've dealt with anxiety and depression for years as well and would think I'm the prime demographic for those sides, but nothing alarming so far.

Discussing finasteride seems to be very confusing. I've been reading up on it and there seems to be a clear cut line on the opinions surrounding it. Some saying it will cause side effects for sure and that it should not be taken under any circumstance. Others saying it caused some sides at first but the sides went away (anyone here experience this?), and others saying they've been on it for years without sides. This drug seems to have massively different results in people, its down to the luck of the draw I guess.

Has anyone seen sides and have had them discontinue? Pain, sexual - probably another bleak question, but does anyone know why it could possibly be that sides may discontinue after a while? And is it worth trying to get through the sides to blindly hope for discontinuation?

I realize I ask a lot of questions that probably won't get definite answers, but the experience everyone has had is very important not only for me but for anyone thinking of taking the drug and people who are already taking it. Often times the drug has a split in terms of flat out opinions so I wanna try to stimulate a good discussion surrounding it - not that it hasn't been done, but the more the merrier I guess. Just for those wondering why it seems like I'm conducting a survey.

 

[Allen Parks]

Wikipedia is generally a really good source, but there are also a lot of agenda pushers out there that want to badmouth things. Finasteride is a really good example if you read the edit histories, but the editors seem pretty good at weeding out the garbage, so to speak.

I'm not familiar with the first study you posted (with females) but the August 2012 one referenced is laughably poor. It essentially looked at 61 men who claim to have persistent side effects from the drug, and then tested their levels of depression. No surprise, these guys were really depressed. But instead of making the logical conclusion that these men were depressed because of their sexual dysfunction, the author concludes that finasteride was somehow DIRECTLY responsible for their depression. Such a blatantly ridiculous study IMO.

finasteride probably can cause depression and anxiety, but like was mentioned, it's probably only going to happen to people who are at a risk for it anyway. Personally, I dealt with sever anxiety and depression for years in my 20's. I got over it completely a few years before I started finasteride, but I haven't had a recurrence of any depressive symptoms after 2 years on the drug. I figure if anyone is at risk, it would be someone like me. Take that anecdotal story with a grain of salt, but for me personally eases my mind about the whole thing.

Wuffer, why do you continue to demonstrate your ignorance? Do you even know why the study was conducted or how Dr. Irwig reached his conclusions? Dr. Irwig concluded and reported that persistent finasteride side effects can have health consequences that go far beyond the bedroom. The hitherto unreported persistent anxious and depressive symptoms men have can have a huge impact on careers, non-sexual relationships and many other aspects of life. The social and health consequences go far beyond the sexual problems that most often get discussed. Dr. Irwig used all the same statistical methods Merck did in their clinical trials- the ones you admit you know nothing about. Never once did Dr. Irwig say "finasteride was somehow DIRECTLY responsible for their depression." Keep fighting windmills and making the same strawman arguments ad nauseum. The only thing that's "blatantly ridiculous" is your armchair "science."

To keep this post pertinent to the thread, I knew two people on finasteride both for several years. None reported any side effects to me.

 

[thiswomps]

I was on it for years... No side effects

Why'd you come off it?


So I've been on finasteride for a month now. I'm gonna come off it for a week and see if I feel any different. Experimenting with my body, feel like I'm 16. I think it's important though as many have noted you don't notice sides until they're bad.

 

[Wuffer]

Wuffer, it's hard to take you seriously when you say things like "These (mental side effects) conditions almost never show up in placebo controlled studies, and you would be hard pressed to even find case reports." A quick look shows that these conditions do show up in clinical trials, and in high numbers too. Much higher than the sexual side effects.

Again, I implore you to be specific when making statements like these. Which trials specifically (placebo controlled at least) have shown incidences of mental side effects, such as depression, anxiety or alzheimer's? If a quick look yields proof to support what you are saying, why not post a link?