Minoxidil and hair growth, dose dependent?

[Bukowski]

The point is that minoxidil aids in recovering miniaturized hair follicles, and there is no reason those follicles should miniaturize again, when the androgen receptors are blocked by a potent anti-androgen. A lot of people are using minoxidil in fear of losing their gains. I'm not going to argue with finasteride, but it's another game with anti-androgens like RU58841

Nope, won't work. minoxidil has nothing to do with androgens. It only stimulates hairgrowth. Once you take away that stimulation the growth will stop. Not because of a sudden "attack" of anti-androgens at the follicle but simply because those hairs we're "being kept alive" by minoxidil.

 

[Ende]

Isn't this discussion over yet? Fortunately, it has never been attempted, and what you're saying makes no f*****g sense - excuse my language. Androgens miniaturizes the hair follicles. Now, whatever mechanism minoxidil works by, it makes the hair follicles recover to their original size. I believe that it's still androgens which causes the follicles to miniaturize when you quit treatment with minoxidil, and I therefore believe that anti-androgens like RU58841 and CB-03-01 will be able to maintain the result.

The day CB-03-01 reaches the market - I'll quit minoxidil.

 

[Bryan]

I believe that it's still androgens which causes the follicles to miniaturize when you quit treatment with minoxidil...

So how do you explain the failure of finasteride to stop that loss when you quit treatment with minoxidil?

 

[Ende]

There are still a lot of androgens which are able to bind to the follicles despite using finasteride. There is still 30% DHT being produced, and testosterone miniaturizes the follicles too.

Finasteride isn't very good at recovering and maintaining the follicles either, compared to RU58841. I would say that finasteride improved the condition of my miniaturized hairs by 2/3. After 3 weeks treatment with RU58841, they looked normal, despite using large amounts of steroids; testosterone and DHT.

 

[Bryan]

RU58841 was only a little better than finasteride in the stumptailed macaque studies. Furthermore, topical minoxidil has no significant effect against androgens. It stimulates hair growth by altering other chemical processes in the hair follicles. Take away the minoxidil, and you take away those altered chemical processes! Like we've said before, don't be too upset if you eventually try your experiment with "CB-03-01" and stopping minoxidil, and get very bad results.

 

[Ende]

Might be so, but the difference I've experienced is drastic. We're talking about significant cosmetic improvement, being able to use large amounts of steroids, and less side effects.

I understand that minoxidil doesn't have any anti-androgenic properties. I'm under the impression that follicles recover faster from androgen relief, than they degenerate from exposure, which means that, by whatever mechanism minoxidil works, the same thing happens. It stimulates growth, and the follicles grows faster than they shrink. When the follicles are recovered to their original size, I don't see why they should miniaturize again when you quit minoxidil, if you block the androgen receptors with a potent anti-androgen. I see what you're saying, but I don't agree.

 

[Bryan]

I understand that minoxidil doesn't have any anti-androgenic properties. I'm under the impression that follicles recover faster from androgen relief, than they degenerate from exposure, which means that, by whatever mechanism minoxidil works, the same thing happens. It stimulates growth, and the follicles grows faster than they shrink. When the follicles are recovered to their original size, I don't see why they should miniaturize again when you quit minoxidil, if you block the androgen receptors with a potent anti-androgen.

You seem to be making the (unconscious?) assumption that minoxidil gets hair follicles back to perfectly "normal", just from having increased their size. But that isn't the case! It's doing that artificially, by unnaturally stimulating various chemical processes that are taking place inside the hair follicle. If you take away the minoxidil, you take away that unnatural stimulation, even if you're now using antiandrogens. The result of that change will soon be obvious.

 

[Ende]

Ok, let's change the view. Would you agree that dutasteride is more potent than minoxidil? Do you think that dutasteride is able to regrow everything minoxidil can, and more?

 

[TheGrayMan2001]

I think the only case where finasteride or dutasteride keep minoxidil-stimulated hair follicles alive is where minoxidil is being used on hairs that are able to come back to life after starting finasteride.

I have a lot of little hairs on my temples that appeared once I started using minoxidil. If I stopped using it for a month or two (maybe longer) I'm pretty sure they'll disappear. They didn't appear on finasteride alone.

Also, in the time I've been off finasteride (almost 2 months) I am pretty sure I shed a bit on my left temple and on my double-vertex I have. It's noticeably thinner to me. Nothing a tiny bit of toppik doesn't cover up, but in mid-January I noticed it was almost totally filled in after using minoxidil for a month and a half. Apparently minoxidil did not sustain it.

 

[Bryan]

Ok, let's change the view. Would you agree that dutasteride is more potent than minoxidil?

I'm not sure how to answer that question, because the two drugs do COMPLETELY different things! It's a little like asking, "Would you agree that aspirin is more potent than penicillin?"

If you're talking about which one of those two drugs (dutasteride or minoxidil) grows more hair, I'd have to say that you'd have to be more specific about how you'd measure the hair! Topical minoxidil seems to do better at improving haircounts in specific locations (like the specific areas of the scalp where it's being physically applied), but dutasteride would have a better overall improvement in the entire scalp (as judged by before-and-after photographs of the full scalp).

Do you think that dutasteride is able to regrow everything minoxidil can, and more?

Again, that question is rather ambiguous. Let's put it in this simplified way: if you're not using any treatment at all, then start to use dutasteride every day, you will regrow a certain amount of hair. Let's call that extra number of hairs you now have on your head "A".

Sometime later, you now start using topical minoxidil, in addition to the dutasteride you've been using for a while. Soon you start growing even MORE hair! Let's call the impressive extra number of hairs you now have on your head "C".

Sometime later, you STOP using the dutasteride that you had been using for a while, but continue using the minoxidil. Now you start to LOSE some of those extra hairs you had, but not all of them. Let's call this latest extra number "B".

Doing some actual counting of all the extra new hairs that you had regrown (or lost) every time you changed your regimen, you notice that A + B = C. See what I'm saying? The dutasteride and minoxidil BOTH grew extra hair for you, and in completely different ways! Dutasteride did it by reducing a lot of the androgenic stimulation that was harming your hair, and minoxidil did it by making complicated changes to the chemistry going on in your hair follicles. The effect that those two different agents had on your hairgrowth was additive. Neither one by itself could fully replace the other. Understand now?

 

[Ende]

Again, that question is rather ambiguous. Let's put it in this simplified way: if you're not using any treatment at all, then start to use dutasteride every day, you will regrow a certain amount of hair. Let's call that extra number of hairs you now have on your head "A".

Sometime later, you now start using topical minoxidil, in addition to the dutasteride you've been using for a while. Soon you start growing even MORE hair! Let's call the impressive extra number of hairs you now have on your head "C".

That may be right, but how do you know? I know this is the case with many Propecia users, but we're talking abut Avodart. Have you seen any studies, or heard about people actually doing this? It doesn't matter anyway, the point I was trying to make - is that RU58841 is more potent than dutasteride - in terms of regrowth and maintenance.

 

[Bryan]

That may be right, but how do you know? I know this is the case with many Propecia users, but we're talking abut Avodart. Have you seen any studies, or heard about people actually doing this? It doesn't matter anyway, the point I was trying to make - is that RU58841 is more potent than dutasteride - in terms of regrowth and maintenance.

As I said earlier in this thread, I think the very same thing would happen in castrated individuals, too. Hell, it would even happen in perfectly NORMAL individuals, too, like people who have no male pattern baldness at all! The application of topical minoxidil would stimulate extra hair growth in a perfectly normal person, and if he stops using it, the extra hair would go away again, just like it would in people who use finasteride, dutasteride, or antiandrogens!

 

[Bryan]

By the way, I'll remind everyone here that there's an old stumptailed macaque study which tested both finasteride and topical minoxidil on them at the same time, and they found indeed that the effects were additive, just like I've been saying here patiently.

 

[Ende]

The application of topical minoxidil would stimulate extra hair growth in a perfectly normal person

Is that true? Does it shift follicles from resting phase to growing phase, like ketoconazole, or does it increase the thickness?

 

[Bryan]

Is that true? Does it shift follicles from resting phase to growing phase, like ketoconazole, or does it increase the thickness?

I assume it would do those things in everybody. That's how it was first noticed (accidentally) to be a hairgrowh stimulant in Loniten users.

 

[balanceguardian]

From what i gathered (I may be wrong) minoxidil helps by keeping the hair in the anagen stage for longer. So any minaturised hair that only grows less than a milimeter before going into the telogen phase now gets to grow longer. Long enough to look like a thin but visible hair. This happens across the scalp with all hairs and gives the appearance of increased hair thickness and gives the extra 'offset hair'. Am I wrong?

If this is the case, then surely after using RU58841 for a long enough period of time the minaturised hairs would have recovered to full thickness anyway.

Perhaps certain follicles are beyond reversal of minaturisation and can only produce visible hair shafts using minoxidils anagen phase extending process.

Guys?

 

[hairhoper]

From what i gathered (I may be wrong) minoxidil helps by keeping the hair in the anagen stage for longer. So any minaturised hair that only grows less than a milimeter before going into the telogen phase now gets to grow longer.

I've read that theory here a few times and it's total bullshit from my experience. Minoxidil can sprout thick dark hairs from in the middle of 'slick bald' spots where there were previously no hairs visible to the naked eye. It will also thicken up existing hairs.

That can't just be caused by 'keeping the hair in the anagen stage for longer'.

Honestly some of the hairs growing round my hairline look like 'freak' hairs to me, they are dark whereas my hair used to be dirty-blonde. This has always given me the impression Minoxidil is doing something pretty bizarre to the follicle and almost side-stepping the androgen damage, so it makes sense to me that the follicle is dependent upon Minoxidil to continue to grow in this manner and an anti-androgen alone could not sustain the hair.

 

[lorre]

In response to the original question:

I've been using generic liquid Minoxidil for about two months. I apply it to my temples and vertex twice per day, but I use significantly more than the recommended dose. In 2 months I've used 7 bottles, so I guess that works out to about 3 or 4 times the recommended dose. My results have been much better than anticipated. I've gained at least an inch back on both of my temples, and the bald spot that I was developing has disappeared. My plan is to continue using this much Minoxidil until I've gained as much back on my temples as possible. I continue to see small, light hairs growing lower and lower on my temples, and these lights hair eventually darken and thicken. Once this downward progress stops, I plan to use the recommended dose, or maybe twice the recommended dose, to help maintain what I've gained. I also use Nizoral about 4 times a week, and Finpecia every other day. For what it's worth, I'm 20 years old, and I have heard that Minoxidil is generally more effective in younger men.

This whole regime is me following advice that I've read on hairlosstalk or elsewhere. I don't know much about the science behind all this stuff, whereas many other people on this forum seem to. I use extra Minoxidil because it seems like common sense. I haven't read anything that's suggested to me that the recommended dose isn't more or less arbitrary. I make sure to thoroughly cover every inch of my scalp that needs help, not thinking about how much I'm using, and the fact that that adds up to more than the recommended dose doesn't seem like a big deal. I bought a whole year's worth on Amazon for 49 bucks, so price really isn't an issue.

All that being said, I do have a concern. I've recently felt my heart racing, or otherwise feeling funny. This doesn't happen often, and it's not horrible when it does happen, and I'm not sure if it's even due to the Minoxidil. But if the extra Minoxidil is troubling my heart, I will stop using so much. I guess I'm wondering: is the heart racing the extent of the side effect, or is the heart racing the manifestation of some worse heart side effect? Do others commonly experience heart racing from Minoxidil? Or could it possibly be the Finpecia?

Thanks for reading.