Merck corruption

[jd_uk]

How about you tell me when I ever used scare tactics like that? Because I didn't. I linked pictures in my success story, and he was in there because it gives a picture of my family's history of baldness. I then included a picture of him and a picture of me in a different post when you attempted to call me out as a Merk shill. The pictures were as a way to prove my point that I was, in fact, NOT a Merk shill, and the reason I liked finasteride was because of the results that I had gotten.

But, feel free to keep making more baseless accusations against me to try and scare off other people. Sadly, people will believe a negative report without doing any fact checking.

I'm guessing I've read pretty much all of your posts over a long period of time now and I've made my mind up about you as have other people who have called you out. You are without a doubt the most vocal supporter of finasteride on this forum and like others nave said when I read a post on my phone I already know that it is you without looking at the username. The way you have told people who are distressed about both their hair loss and their health when there are guys who's lives have been ruined by messing with their hormones is pretty disgusting if you ask me...on this very thread you tell a guy 'and thats your fault, you took it too young' and then will continue to give everyone the 'just take it you have next to zero chance of getting any bad sides' . Like you, I don't give a sh*t what you think...I'm stating what I have perceived and what others have. But simply, some of your posts just p*ss me off.

 

[Rawtashk]

1: I asked you to point me to the post where I said "take it, or else you'll look like my brother". However, you didn't do that. You dodged the question and didn't answer it.

2: Pretty sure you're getting IrishFella and myself mixed up.

You miserable prick, you can keep spouting your hate and try to scare people, but a 18 year old shouldn't have went near finasteride, it's your own fault.

I never blamed anyone for taking it at too young of an age. In fact, I've advised people on this board to wait until they are 20 before taking it!

 

[TravisB]

Post another picture of your so-called brother, and maybe someone will believe you :whistle:

 

[IrishFella]

How about you tell me when I ever used scare tactics like that? Because I didn't. I linked pictures in my success story, and he was in there because it gives a picture of my family's history of baldness. I then included a picture of him and a picture of me in a different post when you attempted to call me out as a Merk shill. The pictures were as a way to prove my point that I was, in fact, NOT a Merk shill, and the reason I liked finasteride was because of the results that I had gotten.

But, feel free to keep making more baseless accusations against me to try and scare off other people. Sadly, people will believe a negative report without doing any fact checking.

I'm guessing I've read pretty much all of your posts over a long period of time now and I've made my mind up about you as have other people who have called you out. You are without a doubt the most vocal supporter of finasteride on this forum and like others nave said when I read a post on my phone I already know that it is you without looking at the username. The way you have told people who are distressed about both their hair loss and their health when there are guys who's lives have been ruined by messing with their hormones is pretty disgusting if you ask me...on this very thread you tell a guy 'and thats your fault, you took it too young' and then will continue to give everyone the 'just take it you have next to zero chance of getting any bad sides' . Like you, I don't give a sh*t what you think...I'm stating what I have perceived and what others have. But simply, some of your posts just p*ss me off.

I love how you're trying to cherry pick quotes.

What about this from your mate, Joe?

"Ha ha ha. You can tell that you are sh*t scared of propecia by the way you talk about it. Hopefully you come down with some of the horrific side effects many men are living with permanently."

That was directed a Rawtashk for no reason whatsoever. That is why I replied to him the way I did, it boiled my blood to no end. The factual evidence is out there on finasteride, countless trials, the safety studies are out there, what more do you need? If you do your research, and if anyone is contemplating taking finasteride they better do it thoroughly, you'll see it's a very safe drug, BUT in some unfortunate circumstances people suffer from adverse affects.

IT'S THE SAME WITH ANY DRUG.

 

[TravisB]

I don't know what kind of business have any of you to defend finasteride so fiercely.

 

[Rawtashk]

I don't know what kind of business have any of you to defend finasteride so fiercely.

I don't know what kind of business have any of you to attack finasteride so fiercely.

 

[jd_uk]

1: I asked you to point me to the post where I said "take it, or else you'll look like my brother". However, you didn't do that. You dodged the question and didn't answer it.

2: Pretty sure you're getting IrishFella and myself mixed up.

You miserable prick, you can keep spouting your hate and try to scare people, but a 18 year old shouldn't have went near finasteride, it's your own fault.

I never blamed anyone for taking it at too young of an age. In fact, I've advised people on this board to wait until they are 20 before taking it!

If you didn't say it in as many words then you may as well have...you've continually posted the same link to a story showing pictures of you and your brother showing how fanatsically you are supposedly doing and how bad his hair loss is. I think I remember you saying you would be devastated if you looked like your brother. You have contiually told other people on this board with concerns over their hair and concerns over their health 'just get on finasteride, forget about it' and then proceeded to post your link. Even recently in a thread where someone posted a link to another site where you could buy finasteride, you had to post your link underneath explaining how your link had a 'price match' and was therefore what people should use...it's all not only very suscpicious, but quite f'd up when people need to make their own choices on a drug which undoubtedly CAN be very dangerous. Messing with internal chemistry is serious and you will find doctors all over the world who will tell you that it is not avisable.

You said to Joe just a few posts ago 'At this point, you have no one to blame but yourself' - that is a f'ng insensitive thing to say to a young gy who is obviously pretty distressed about what has happened to him. He is letting it be known what has happened to him as he quite rightly wants others to know the potential dangers if you're unlucky enough to have them which far outweigh any potential gain. He shouldn't be wishing bad things on other people but frankly if that has happened to him and people like you are pathetic enough to undermine and question anybody who says that they have side effects from the drug (which I've seen you do constantly in the most sarcastic of ways 'it must be the fins, fins is horrible' etc etc) then I completely understand why he is getting so annoyed.

If you're not a fraud (I am seriously suspicious) then you have some serious growing up to do, you have no consideration for what others might be going through or have gone through when you post the same repetitive 'get on finasteride, finasteride will pretty much never give you bad sides, you have more chance of getting hit by a pink elephant blah blah'. For the life of me I can't understand why the moderators haven't told you to calm it down when you post your spam links and that even makes me suspicious of this forum. Serious, genuine discussion about a serious problem which affects people is helpful - making fun of people who believe they have sides from finasteride, saying it is all in their head andpretty much telling new users to 'get on finasteride and forget about it' is not.

 

[jd_uk]

I love how you're trying to cherry pick quotes.

What about this from your mate, Joe?

"Ha ha ha. You can tell that you are sh*t scared of propecia by the way you talk about it. Hopefully you come down with some of the horrific side effects many men are living with permanently."

That was directed a Rawtashk for no reason whatsoever. That is why I replied to him the way I did, it boiled my blood to no end. The factual evidence is out there on finasteride, countless trials, the safety studies are out there, what more do you need? If you do your research, and if anyone is contemplating taking finasteride they better do it thoroughly, you'll see it's a very safe drug, BUT in some unfortunate circumstances people suffer from adverse affects.

IT'S THE SAME WITH ANY DRUG.

Cherry pick quotes?

I'm talking about Rawtashk's posts over a long period of time.

See my last post regarding my opinion on what Joe said.

There are studies...there is not conclusive long term information, there is conflicting information, there are so many questions in so many areas - can it cause infertility - one piece of research says it doesn't affect it much but the official leaflet has been made to say that it can cause infertility, can it decrease athletic performance, is dht required for long term sexual function, why do otherwise healthy people just crash sexually after 10 years of use - is it androgen deprivation, would it just have happened anyway?...lets look at the 10 year studies to find out, oh wait - there aren't any. The manufacturers say some of those sexual side effects (which seem to happen way more than 2% if you look at the reports of people who are just keeping online diaries of their use) will just go away upon discontnuation of the drug but how long will that take - oh wait, they don't say - go to various forums and it apparently can take a seriously long time - propecia help an obvious one, but even more general sites like ask doctor web. Then there are the questions about cancers - nobody knows these long term effetcs. My doctor said I would have to be careful as I had prostate cancer in my family history. We know it shrinks the prostate (which is also very important for enjoyment of sex), we know that ejaculatory fluid is often decreased (again this seems to happen WAY more than any official figures suggest - even the most prominent hair doctor in the world admits this). I could go on and on....

There are SO many unknowns about finasteride and that is why the debate is so fierce.

and no IT IS NOT THE SAME WITH ANY DRUG. Go find me whole forums dedicated to treating the side effects of paracetamol.

Anyone who questions how dangerous playing with the male sex hormones CAN be has their head buried in the sand. Is is not the same as taking any drug so please do not spread misinformation. It is a risk and the short term 'studies' conducted so far are under constant scrutiny by doctors all over the world.

and trust me - I wish it wasn't this way, but it is - and people need to be aware of this and not slammed for worrying about side effects and just told 'get on the finasteride' by certain posters.

 

[Rawtashk]

Because mods are mods for a reason. Presumably because they are mature about things and don't jump to conclusions. Which is quite possibly the reason why my posts don't get deleted.

It's also very obvious that you only read the posts of mine that you disagree with. I've posted in the "Side Effects" forums trying to help guys out. Hell, I just posted something in there today about something that might help with some persistent sides! I have never, EVER denied that there is a possibility for sides when taking this drug. All I've done is try to counter people like you who shout "STAY AWAY FROM finasteride AT ALL COSTS! IT WILL DESTROY YOUR LIFE!!!!". I simply point out numbers and paint scenarios to try and get people to think objectively for themselves.

I also don't say "Screw the sides and just do finasteride". I tell people that finasteride and minoxidil are the only FDA approved treatments for Male Pattern Baldness, and that the trials for Propecia have shown a small percentage of men get side effects.

Joe does need to get over it and do what he can to move on with his life. I'm sure he could spend the next 40 or 50 years spamming boards with his negative experiences...but what is that going to fix? Nothing. The ONLY way that he can get better (mentally and physically) is by picking himself up by his bootstraps and TRYING. He's given up, and nothing will EVER GET BETTER IF YOU GIVE UP! A magician isn't going to wave his magic wand and *POOF*, now Joe is better!! So, you tell me...who else, besides himself, is going to get him better?

As for me posting and pointing out that 4rx has a price match guarantee...this is a fact. Since when is it wrong to state a fact? I've also made it known that I have only ever ordered through 4rx, so that is all that I know. People say "Where should I get finasteride?" I post and tell them my experience with it. I link them to where I got it, and to my story so that they can see my results and judge for themselves. I never said "DON"T GO ANYWHERE ELSE BUT HERE!!! EVERYONE ELSE IS A SCAM!" I give them my advice so that they can make an informed decision. How is this wrong to do?

As for TravisB's earlier comment of

Post another picture of your so-called brother, and maybe someone will believe you :whistle:

I really don't know why I'm bending to your will...but whatever...

A friend, my younger brother, and the older brother on a canoe trip 6 years ago

My parents and siblings at Xmas 3 years ago (notice my dad's bald head. See my success story thread for confirmation on bald head)

Same Xmas at my grandparent's house, waiting to open presents (notice dad's bald head as well)

At my wedding in July of '09

Now, you may feel free to proceed with ignoring all of the pictorial an factual evidence that I have posted and find something else to call me out on for being a "fraud"
:smack:

 

[jd_uk]

Because mods are mods for a reason. Presumably because they are mature about things and don't jump to conclusions. Which is quite possibly the reason why my posts don't get deleted.

It's also very obvious that you only read the posts of mine that you disagree with. I've posted in the "Side Effects" forums trying to help guys out. Hell, I just posted something in there today about something that might help with some persistent sides! I have never, EVER denied that there is a possibility for sides when taking this drug. All I've done is try to counter people like you who shout "STAY AWAY FROM finasteride AT ALL COSTS! IT WILL DESTROY YOUR LIFE!!!!". I simply point out numbers and paint scenarios to try and get people to think objectively for themselves.

I also don't say "Screw the sides and just do finasteride". I tell people that finasteride and minoxidil are the only FDA approved treatments for Male Pattern Baldness, and that the trials for Propecia have shown a small percentage of men get side effects.

Joe does need to get over it and do what he can to move on with his life. I'm sure he could spend the next 40 or 50 years spamming boards with his negative experiences...but what is that going to fix? Nothing. The ONLY way that he can get better (mentally and physically) is by picking himself up by his bootstraps and TRYING. He's given up, and nothing will EVER GET BETTER IF YOU GIVE UP! A magician isn't going to wave his magic wand and *POOF*, now Joe is better!! So, you tell me...who else, besides himself, is going to get him better?

As for me posting and pointing out that 4rx has a price match guarantee...this is a fact. Since when is it wrong to state a fact? I've also made it known that I have only ever ordered through 4rx, so that is all that I know. People say "Where should I get finasteride?" I post and tell them my experience with it. I link them to where I got it, and to my story so that they can see my results and judge for themselves. I never said "DON"T GO ANYWHERE ELSE BUT HERE!!! EVERYONE ELSE IS A SCAM!" I give them my advice so that they can make an informed decision. How is this wrong to do?

As for TravisB's earlier comment of

Post another picture of your so-called brother, and maybe someone will believe you :whistle:

I really don't know why I'm bending to your will...but whatever...

A friend, my younger brother, and the older brother on a canoe trip 6 years ago

My parents and siblings at Xmas 3 years ago (notice my dad's bald head. See my success story thread for confirmation on bald head)

Same Xmas at my grandparent's house, waiting to open presents (notice dad's bald head as well)

At my wedding in July of '09

Now, you may feel free to proceed with ignoring all of the pictorial an factual evidence that I have posted and find something else to call me out on for being a "fraud"
:smack:

Rawtash, I'm in no way imagining what I have seen with the vast majority of your posts - I called you on it quite some time ago as did others and you kept up the same 'get on finasteride and forget about it' to pretty much anyone who asked. If anyone accuses you of being a fraud then you only have yourself to blame for the way that you come across. People can generally accept someone who documents their usage from the start and doesn't copy and post the same 'song and dance' as you put it with the same old link and discount code and sing from the rooftops about what a safe drug it is.

I, and others typically know that it is you posting without even looking at the username. Maybe you should just consider toning it down a bit and being a bit more sensitive both to people who have taken it and got sides and to those who are considering taking it but are concerned about their health. Even the stats and studies as many people point out are not conclusive of the true risks and are questioned by professionals with much more insight than you or I on a daily basis.

 

[Joe-1991]

I am not even bothered by posters such as Rawtashk. He is obviously very happy that propecia has halted his hair loss and that is great for him. It is almost funny to see someone defending a multi million dollar pharmaceutical company, whom they have no associated with so aggressively though.

I won't post in this thread any further. The fact that Merck have taken down the propecia website and replaced it with a bold FDA side effects reporting link just as the lawsuits are pressing on says it all.

The evidence of severe side effects, even after quitting 5 AR inhibitors finasteride/ dutasteride is all over this forum. Go back to the last pages of this forum section 'antiandrogens & androgen blockers' and also the 'dealing with side effects' section. You don't even need to dig up studies or propeciahelp.com.

 

[guy83]

joe, have u tried v**** or ciallis?

 

[TheGrayMan2001]

That is interesting about the propecia website.

The problem is, though, that studies of other drugs similar to finasteride, as well as non-Merck related finasteride studies, have reported similar results to the Merck studies.

While there might be a problem for a tiny fraction of users of finasteride, it seems to be so small that it just hasn't shown up in any studies that I am aware of.

 

[Rawtashk]

It's not uncommon for stuff like that to happen when lawsuits are brewing. "Cover your ***" is the technical term for it. And, no, it's not admitting fault. I work in IT and I practice CYA every day. It's about protecting yourself

 

[Wuffer]

I haven't posted here in a couple months, and this thread is a great example of why I stopped. I used to be very much in Rawtashk's shoes. It's become very unpopular to speak of finasteride positively. If you do, you get a dozen people that jump up your *** for it. You get berated so badly that you realize: f*ck it, what am I gaining for arguing about all of this?

This isn't about who's right and who's wrong. People should really be free to express their opinions. But it seems lately, if you opinion is unpopular, you are now wrong and you are labeled a shill or a monster. It's pretty ridiculous how far this crap has gone, and the few people that openly support finasteride and recommend it because they have had a good experience shouldn't have to deal with such hate.

Joe: YOU NEED TO MOVE ON. I don't know how many times I’ve said this to you in the past, but you need to pick up your sh*t and move on with life. You're facing some pretty crappy problems right now, but you need to ACCEPT it and move on with your life in spite of it.

One of my best friends was just diagnosed with stage 3 cancer. He's 31 and he has less than a 30% chance of living the next 5 years. I went out for drinks with him last weekend and he has more optimism and courage than anyone I’ve ever met. Seriously, if I was in his situation, I would probably just shut down and sit in my bedroom waiting to die.

From what I understand, you are healthy. You have problems that really suck and are unfair for a young guy to have, but it’s something you can manage and get through. You still have a full life ahead of you, and in spite of your problems, you can move past it. If you continue to live your life in misery, filled with hate and refuse to accept what's happened, you're going to turn into a miserable old man and lose all of your opportunities for happiness. Nothing is going to make your problems magically go away. I genuinely hope you take this advice to heart man, because nothing is worse than watching someone waste their life because of something they refuse to let go of. You only live once. You need to accept the sh*tty cards you are dealt and move on.

 

[jd_uk]

I haven't posted here in a couple months, and this thread is a great example of why I stopped. I used to be very much in Rawtashk's shoes. It's become very unpopular to speak of finasteride positively. If you do, you get a dozen people that jump up your *** for it. You get berated so badly that you realize: f*ck it, what am I gaining for arguing about all of this?

This isn't about who's right and who's wrong. People should really be free to express their opinions. But it seems lately, if you opinion is unpopular, you are now wrong and you are labeled a shill or a monster. It's pretty ridiculous how far this crap has gone, and the few people that openly support finasteride and recommend it because they have had a good experience shouldn't have to deal with such hate.

I have absolutely no problem with people posting their success stories or even given their own experiences. That is what this board is for amongst other things.

What bothers me personally (and a few others have commented the same thing) is when you're reading through all these hairloss discussions and the same thing is repeated over and over (even copied and pasted) by the same poster - Firstly, I think, hang on...has ANYBODY else had any really good experiences with this drug without side effects and secondly I question why said poster has discrepancies in his own posts (i.e. had no sides, maybe had some, had some but they were mild) - THAT is irritating.

My opinion, is that anyone should err on the side of caution when it comes to taking a hormone altering medication when treating something like hairloss which is not in itself an illness. I'm not saying that they shouldn't take the drug because hair loss can be mentally devastating, but they should read about the risks carefully, feel free to discuss them with others and ask others for their own HONEST personal experiences.

That is why it is not helpful when you have someone like Rawtashk pretty much spamming with his own copy and pasted 'i knew it wasn't some sugarpill story'' and saying 'just get on finasteride and forget about it'.

I'm not hateful of someone who has had success with finasteride at all - frankly I wish that there were more positive stories of people having no side effects - but there aren't. And that is not simply because the happy guys don't come on the boards anymore - of the guys who make it a point to document their progress from start to finish, very few have no sides at all. The figure is absolutely nowhere near 2% or whatever is claimed.

I wish this was not the case - trust me, or I would possibly be jumping on the drug myself - but unfortunately I have done a hell of a lot of reading, on this board and others and it does seem to be the case. Even doctors which I've spoken to admit that they see more people with side effects (like decreased semen for example) than what is reported.

 

[Joe-1991]

Wuffer

I appreciate the advice and i will admit that you are 100% right. In order for me to find any happiness again, i need to move on. At the moment though, i want to do my bit and spread some awareness. This nightmare all began on this very forum after all. When i first started taking finasteride and discussed it in my story thread i was warned repeatedly by a fellow victim that there would be ill consequences if i carry on taking finasteride. My decision to ignore him is something i will regret for the rest of my life.

Moving onto your friend for a moment. I can understand your point because obviously cancer is devastating, especially at such a young age, but at least he has an official diagnosis, at least doctors and his family will listen to him and he does not need to feel any pressure from his friends. He will likely get a lot of support from everyone around him. I am not saying that post finasteride side effects are worse than cancer. I have no idea what that young man is going through, but at least he can be honest with himself and the people around him.

I have had my personality destroyed. I no longer look backwards or forwards, i have no goals, i don't anticipate or look forward to anything. I am completely numb. I can't get any help from doctors and my family don't understand what is wrong with me. Instead of being able to develop the type of support system that people need when dealing with adversity in life i just have to keep everything a secret or at least not talk about it. I don't even have a real disease for fucks sake - i just took a medicine for my hair and now my brain and my penis are completely ruined. I am faced with the usual 'banter' and questions from friends about girls. I have had girls approach me and i have been completely passive and my friends have questioned me on it. I can't sit down to study and have consequently given up on my education.

I find it all very hard to describe to be honest. Anyway, i am sure this post will be greeted with hatred because i am comparing post finasteride issues to cancer. Honestly though guys, you can only understand if this sh*t happens to you. All it took was one night, a few weeks after quitting finasteride and my life has never been the same since. My waist/ crotch area is just a numb senseless part of my body and i drift through life like some sort of alien. Not thinking about anything really; no love, no ambitions, no anger - nothing. I still get a lot of joy from music and TV/ film, and i have been able to maintain my sense of humor, which has helped to no end with social interactions, but apart from that my life is incredibly miserable. I have had days and even a week where i returned to normal and it was devastating to see how much this has changed me. Believe it or not guys, everything we do is governed by hormones - if something goes wrong then your overall well being is at stake. It is not something you can just shrug off after reading a story of someone having cancer or seeing someone in a wheelchair. Believe me, i constantly try to appreciate that losing my sex life is not the end of the world and people face far, far worse hardships in life but the sleep problems and the depression/ anxiety - which by the way is a listed side effect just KEEP dragging me down.

Messing with DHT/ Testosterone using 5 AR inhibitors is a very, very bad idea for any male on this planet. I still can't even believe i took finasteride knowing that if a pregnant woman comes in contact with it then a male fetus is likely to be severely abnormal in terms of there sexual development - god knows what it would do to there brain.

Anyway, Wuffer - good post and i completely agree with you - rant over!

 

[Joe-1991]

I'm not hateful of someone who has had success with finasteride at all - frankly I wish that there were more positive stories of people having no side effects - but there aren't. And that is not simply because the happy guys don't come on the boards anymore - of the guys who make it a point to document their progress from start to finish, very few have no sides at all. The figure is absolutely nowhere near 2% or whatever is claimed.

I wish this was not the case - trust me, or I would possibly be jumping on the drug myself - but unfortunately I have done a hell of a lot of reading, on this board and others and it does seem to be the case. Even doctors which I've spoken to admit that they see more people with side effects (like decreased semen for example) than what is reported.

THIS is exactly why people need to open their eyes and see that A) messing with your DHT levels and prostate is a terrible idea and B) Merck's percentages from there studies are BLATANTLY bullshit - so why would they be honest about permanent side effects?

What was the % for changes in seme/ orgasm again? because honestly, i bet the true figure is well over 50%

Do you really want to be taking a hormone altering drug from a company like this?

 

[GorgonMendez]

Fincar18- I'm sorry bro that you feel that way. I wanna tell you something. I have been feeling the same way. For the last 2 years honestly I have been feeling exactly what you described. But... I have not touched finasteride. It's true I have not taken finasteride yet I feel the way you do. Why though? I think I know why. I graduated high school almost three years ago and I decided not to go to college. Ever since then Ive been working and hate to say but have not done much else with my life. You know why? Because of hairloss. It's true and I'm ashamed to say it. Now I think there is a psychological reason for all of this. And before I go on I should mention that a coworker of mine is feeling the same way right now. Do you know why he feels like this? Hes lost in life right now. He's waiting around till he joins the marines, which at this point is uncertain. So to continue with my statement, I don't think that your condition is permanent. I think your in a rut, I very small and insignificant rut. It's not hard to get out of it either. Change your lifestyle, thats it! I promise you that's it. It's like quicksand homie, keep struggling and youll sink, but optimism and a smile will get you out (probably not great advice for an actual quicksand encounter but the metaphor will do just fine). Anyways psychology, the brain is a mystery, and I think that to blame a single thing as the cause of your current state is ignorant. see a psychologist if you want, it won't hurt. But the most important thing, and others WILL agree, stop thinking about this, your hair, this site, I know you want to help inform people but worry about getting yourself better first. Anyways there's my bit I thought I should say something and what do you know I did lol. Hope this helps you man!

 

[Joe-1991]

Maybe phsychologically i am a mess, yes. Things won't just resolve with a smile and getting out more though - i don't get any morning erections, my penis has shrunken, my sperm is watery etc.

The reason i can't get on with life is because i am absolutely devastated.

If i woke up tomorrow and it was all better - i would be a much happier chap.

So you are suffering sexual decimation without taking finasteride?

By the way - only earlier this year i was doing very well in university, had a girlfriend, made a great group of friends etc and all the side effects/ symptoms remained. I probably couldn't of had it any better to be honest.