Malic acid and choline may cure most of us

[BitchBoy]

You're so full of sh*t you should be a nutritionist.

Thing is, which bit is sh*t? The fact the liver affects hormones, probably more so than any other single organ? No. The fact that liver toxicity hinders it's ability to filter them leading to hormonal changes and build-up? No. The fact that sludge, stones and parasites all profoundly affect this, and that hormone level changes are KNOWN to cause male pattern baldness (the most obvious example being steroids)? No all that is true as well.

So please tell me what part of this is sh*t.

It's bullshit because hormones are not the cause of Androgenetic Alopecia ,it's whatever triggers the follicles to react the hormones in the way they do. Manipulating your hormone levels is only a way of treating the condition it can't ever really be a cure.

Hairloss 101 Hoppi, dont' be such a noob.

 

[Hoppi]

You're so full of sh*t you should be a nutritionist.

Thing is, which bit is sh*t? The fact the liver affects hormones, probably more so than any other single organ? No. The fact that liver toxicity hinders it's ability to filter them leading to hormonal changes and build-up? No. The fact that sludge, stones and parasites all profoundly affect this, and that hormone level changes are KNOWN to cause male pattern baldness (the most obvious example being steroids)? No all that is true as well.

So please tell me what part of this is sh*t.

It's bullshit because hormones are not the cause of Androgenetic Alopecia ,it's whatever triggers the follicles to react the hormones in the way they do. Manipulating your hormone levels is only a way of treating the condition it can't ever really be a cure.

Hairloss 101 Hoppi, dont' be such a noob.

Think about it though - that is DISPROVEN at least for some in examples where people merely stop taking steroids or stop drinking green tea and their hair loss stops (the latter I've heard about and influenced first hand). Please tell me why inadequate removal of androgens by the liver doesn't have the same effect?

 

[Hoppi]

I'm willing to try something to improve my liver. Had most hairloss when I was a heavy drinker (around years 16 to 17/18) and Dutasteride and Finasteride aren't good for the liver either.

Plus, my grandmother on mother's side had hairloss because of a hormonal imbalance so... Yes, I'm willing to believe this.

Thanks man My new recommended minimum is malic acid 1-2 grams daily, 500mg choline daily, 4 capsules of Humaworm daily for 2 months and morning castor oil packs (1 hour a day). This will remove cholesterol and parasites from the liver and flush it out and detox it, and also encourage a sluggish liver by getting more blood through it every morning. Other top things are vit C and gold coin grass. That should do the trick for most people I reckon

Morning exercise also helps, but I'm hoping castor oil packs work just as well!

 

[Bryan]

It's bullshit because hormones are not the cause of Androgenetic Alopecia ,it's whatever triggers the follicles to react the hormones in the way they do. Manipulating your hormone levels is only a way of treating the condition it can't ever really be a cure.

I agree. It's a bit like saying that castration is the "cure" for hair loss. In a certain very trivial sense it is, but how many guys would consider it to be an acceptable treatment?

 

[Bryan]

Think about it though - that is DISPROVEN at least for some in examples where people merely stop taking steroids or stop drinking green tea and their hair loss stops... Please tell me why inadequate removal of androgens by the liver doesn't have the same effect?

LOL!! The use of steroids by bodybuilders, and the resulting loss of hair in some cases, is an EXTREME EXAMPLE of what not to do. It's rather reminiscent of that experimental finding that's already been posted on hairloss forums in the past: even though most people used to think that scalp hair from the sides of the head was generally "immune" to the effects of androgens (thus its use for hair transplantation), some doctors showed recently that it could still suffer bad effects, if the dose of androgens given to it in an experimental setting WERE HIGH ENOUGH.

So your attempt to use bodybuilders and their anabolic steroids to try to convince people that a beneficial result could occur when an average, typically balding person uses malic acid and choline is simply laughable.

 

[Hoppi]

Think about it though - that is DISPROVEN at least for some in examples where people merely stop taking steroids or stop drinking green tea and their hair loss stops... Please tell me why inadequate removal of androgens by the liver doesn't have the same effect?

LOL!! The use of steroids by bodybuilders, and the resulting loss of hair in some cases, is an EXTREME EXAMPLE of what not to do. It's rather reminiscent of that experimental finding that's already been posted on hairloss forums in the past: even though most people used to think that scalp hair from the sides of the head was generally "immune" to the effects of androgens (thus its use for hair transplantation), some doctors showed recently that it could still suffer bad effects, if the dose of androgens given to it in an experimental setting WERE HIGH ENOUGH.

So your attempt to use bodybuilders and their anabolic steroids to try to convince people that a beneficial result could occur when an average, typically balding person uses malic acid and choline is simply laughable.

I also said green tea. In addition we see Androgenetic Alopecia very often in men and women at times of hormonal imbalance, that can come and go with time (particularly in women). This surely proves that merely fluctuating levels of androgens can start or stop Androgenetic Alopecia. What do you think though? That there is an epigenetic change as opposed to a fluctuation in androgen levels?

I do agree that there MAY be a point in every genetically susceptible person's life when their follicles become sensitive, but to assume this is necessarily the same point at which Androgenetic Alopecia starts is IMO quite sloppy science especially when we observe things like the effects of green tea and female hormonal fluctuations. And Rosacea. And celiac (and stress, digestive issues, being overweight, metabolic syndrome, PCOS, regional dietary habits and Androgenetic Alopecia occurrence, connection of Androgenetic Alopecia with certain diseases). The evidence for hormonal shifts and inflammation levels being key components in initiating Androgenetic Alopecia (without need for any other changes) is overwhelming to say the least.

 

[deadlocks]

I'm willing to try something to improve my liver. Had most hairloss when I was a heavy drinker (around years 16 to 17/18) and Dutasteride and Finasteride aren't good for the liver either.

Plus, my grandmother on mother's side had hairloss because of a hormonal imbalance so... Yes, I'm willing to believe this.

Thanks man My new recommended minimum is malic acid 1-2 grams daily, 500mg choline daily, 4 capsules of Humaworm daily for 2 months and morning castor oil packs (1 hour a day). This will remove cholesterol and parasites from the liver and flush it out and detox it, and also encourage a sluggish liver by getting more blood through it every morning. Other top things are vit C and gold coin grass. That should do the trick for most people I reckon

Morning exercise also helps, but I'm hoping castor oil packs work just as well!

That seems pretty extreme, I don't want to take so many pills a day. I already take about 4 normally (Dutas, Multi Vit, Curcuma, Gingko and today also Aloe Vera making 5). Are there also natural ways to do the same for the liver? As by foods or other ways?

Aloe Vera also seems to have a cleansing effect on the liver. Or at least, that's what the package on my supplement says. That's also the reason why I took it today. It also contains other herbs and plants like; buckthorn, dandelion, fennel, gentian, white horehound, licorice and rhubarb.

EDIT: My wrong, Aloe Vera is not for the liver, but for the intestines.

 

[squeegee]

Insulin resistance causes high cholesterol/triglycerides and sludge to build up in the liver, which must be cleared to restore proper hormone elimination. Cholesterol and triglycerides is a by product of your body’s efforts to provide your cells with glucose. Only 15% of cholesterol and triglycerides levels are related to diet. Androgen dominance plays a role in the vicious cycles in its impact on insulin resistance. Excess androgens increase levels of free fatty acids which inhibit the liver detoxification and skeletal muscles from using glucose. These metabolic pathways create a vicious cycle of elevated insulin which is fed and feeds androgen formation.

Insulin resistance and androgen dominance seriously impair your body’s ability to eliminate toxins, free radical and excess hormones. This results in ever increasing levels in your body of the things that your body is attempting to get rid of.

 

[Bryan]

I also said green tea.

Oh, you think drinking green tea causes male pattern baldness?

 

[squeegee]

I also said green tea.

Oh, you think drinking green tea causes male pattern baldness?

Come on Bryan pick on another victim.. lol

 

[squeegee]

How Do You Do A Liver Flush?
To start a simple liver cleanse, this is what you will need:

* Apple juice or malic acid supplements.
* 4 tblspoons of Epsom Salts.
* 1/2 Cup of Virgin Olive Oil.
* 1 big grapefruit, or 3 lemons.

Directions

1. For 4-5 days before your liver flush, eat as many apples, or drink as many apple juice as you can. You can take malic acid supplements if you wish if you can't drink the juice. In the last 2 days, drink 8 oz of apple juice every 2-3 hours. Doing this will help ensure the liver flush is successful.
2. On day 6, eat a light breakfast with no fat. This enables the bile in your liver to accumulate, putting pressure in your liver. This pressure will eliminate more stones in your liver.
3. At 2:00 PM, the same day, mix 4 tblspoons of Epsom Salts in 3 cups of water, pouring all this into some jar. Do NOT drink or consume any foods after 2 PM. This is extremely important! Put this jar in the cooler/refrigerator to make it cold.
4. At 6:00 PM, drink 3/4 cup of this mixture. It will taste very bad... but you can add 1/8 tablespoons of powdered Vitamin C to make it taste better.
5. At 8 PM, drink another 3/4 cup of thix mixture. Get all your errands done, and prepare for the liver flush. You shouldn't be doing ANYTHING after doing a liver flush, just lying down and sleeping.
6. At 9:45 PM, pour 1/2 cup of virgin olive oil into a jar. Squeeze the entire grapefruit into the mix, removing the pulp with a fork, or chopsticks. You should have 1/2 to 3/4 cups of grapefruit juice mixed with the virgin olive oil the jar. Close the jar, and shake it very hard until it is all liquid.
7. At 10 PM, drink this mixture. You may drink it through some large straw if that makes it easier for you. Try to get it all down by 5 mins or so.
8. Lay down in your bed as soon as you are down. This is crucial, and most people do this wrong. Don't do any work, don't even bother brushing your teeth! Just lay down immediately! Lay on your right side, with your right knee up towards your chin for 20 or so mins. Stay still, and try not to move at all. Try to sleep.
9. The next morning, when you wake up, drink a 3rd dose of your 3/4 cup Epsom salts. You can go back to sleep afterwards.
10. Two hours later, drink the last dose of Epsom salts.
11. Only after 2 more hours can you eat anything, but do not eat solid fruits just yet. Start with liquids, and move slowly to fruit.

What Can You Expect?
The next morning, you can expect some sort of diarrhea (this is caused by the Epsom salts). You may see some gallstones afterwards. Some people just eliminate regular wastes, but others eliminate hundreds of gallstones. Look for green, round things - these are gallstones. if they're floating and green, they are gallstones.

 

[squeegee]

http://www.ultrathistle.com/siliphos_clinical_studies.html

But again..it also is available in combo products.

Monolaurin is one thing I take..and I've seen it referenced to even liver parasites:

Viruses can lived in your stored fat and in the fat in your liver. Monolaurin, according to studies is supposed to be effective against these viruses by breaking down the shell, membrane, or outer wall of the viruses so that they are chopped into bits, turned to liquid, and eventually are removed from your body.

http://www.examiner.com/vegan-in-sacramento/can-monolaurin-help-facial-herpes

Also..glutathione itself..look into liposomal glut or even things such as cysteine peptide.

Swanson stopped producing their Cysteine PEP..pissed off.. what about a good NAC brand??? like this : http://www.healthsuperstore.com/p-jarro ... ustain.htm

Detox occur because of the Gluthathione or the amino acid cysteine?

 

[squeegee]

Fat in the liver and insulin resistance.

Yki-Järvinen H.

Department of Medicine, Division of Diabetes, University of Helsinki, Helsinki, Finland. ykijarvi@cc.helsinki.fi
Abstract

Insulin resistance in humans is not always accompanied by obesity, since severe insulin resistance also characterizes patients lacking subcutaneous fat such as those with HAART- (highly-active antiretroviral therapy)-associated lipodystrophy. Both obese and lipodystrophic patients, however, have an increase in the amount of fat hidden in the liver. Liver fat content can be accurately quantified non-invasively by proton magnetic resonance spectroscopy. It is closely correlated with fasting insulin concentrations and direct measures of hepatic insulin sensitivity while the amount of subcutaneous adipose tissue is not. An increase in liver fat content has been shown to predict type 2 diabetes, independently of other cardiovascular risk factors. This is easily explained by the fact that the liver, once fatty, overproduces most of the known cardiovascular risk factors such as very low density lipoprotein (VLDL), glucose, C-reactive protein (CRP), plasminogen activator inhibitor-1 (PAI-1), fibrinogen and coagulation factors. The causes of inter-individual variation in liver fat content, independent of obesity, are largely unknown but could involve differences in signals from adipose tissue such as in the amount of adiponectin produced and differences in fat intake. Adiponectin deficiency characterizes both lipodystrophic and obese insulin-resistant individuals, and serum levels correlate with liver fat content. Liver fat content can be decreased by weight loss and by a low as compared to a high fat diet. In addition, treatment of both lipodystrophic and type 2 diabetic patients with peroxisome proliferators activator receptor-gamma (PPARgamma) agonists, but not metformin, decreases liver fat and markedly increases adiponectin levels. The fatty liver may help to explain why some but not all obese individuals are insulin resistant and why even lean individuals may be insulin resistant, and thereby at risk of developing type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular disease.

 

[Hoppi]

Thanks squeegee for the fantastic studies and information, I have a lot of confidence that this (the liver, and particularly fatty liver) is the issue in a huge number of people.

Liver flushes as you mentioned are good, but the reason I was veering towards supplements is apparently it can take a fair few flushes to clear out ALL the stones (whereas supplements will gradually do the whole lot). They are definitely good though and provide quicker potential results than supplements, but also aren't always pleasant for everyone. Parasite cleansing (eg Humaworm), intestinal cleansing (eg Oxy-powder) and kidney cleansing (eg watermelon) are all recommended before flushing but not essential.

Deadlocks... yes. But I actually carefully chose malic acid and choline as the specific, isolated components of apples and soy respectively that are good for removing cholesterol and dissolving stones. And vitC too, then I just made them high dose lol

Gold Coin Grass is a herb also well known for getting rid of gallstones.

Humaworm is an incredibly strong, totally natural anti-parasite, candida and "bad bacteria" product, including for liver flukes and other liver parasites. There are other options though like Clarkia, oregano, etc.

Pomegranate or lipoic acid also seem great for lowering blood sugar / insulin resistance, and the former also for increasing SHBG, combating parasites and candida, etc!

It's great to get some more progress going here though - like I say it could have great results for many!

As for green tea - I asked him to stop drinking it in high amounts daily and his male pattern baldness stopped. Go figure. lol

EDIT -- A quote from sensiblehealth.com that you guys may find useful:

" It is better to exercise in the morning [than in the evening]. Your liver filters all your blood at night when you sleep. If it is not functioning well, a fair amount of blood tends to be retained in the liver in the morning when you wake up. Morning exercise helps to get your blood flowing and bring the blood out of your liver and into circulation. It "activates" the liver. "

Hope that helps!

 

[Jacob]

http://www.ultrathistle.com/siliphos_clinical_studies.html

But again..it also is available in combo products.

Monolaurin is one thing I take..and I've seen it referenced to even liver parasites:

Viruses can lived in your stored fat and in the fat in your liver. Monolaurin, according to studies is supposed to be effective against these viruses by breaking down the shell, membrane, or outer wall of the viruses so that they are chopped into bits, turned to liquid, and eventually are removed from your body.

http://www.examiner.com/vegan-in-sacramento/can-monolaurin-help-facial-herpes

Also..glutathione itself..look into liposomal glut or even things such as cysteine peptide.

Swanson stopped producing their Cysteine PEP..pissed off.. what about a good NAC brand??? like this : http://www.healthsuperstore.com/p-jarro ... ustain.htm

Detox occur because of the Gluthathione or the amino acid cysteine?

Send Swanson a request to carry it again..can't hurt(I still have 5 bottles left from their bogo sale awhile back). I did it when they stopped selling Shilajit..and I see it's back now. Otherwise there is CysteinePeP: http://www.nutricology.com/search.php?mode=search&query=CysteinePeP


http://www.allergyresearchgroup.com/_se ... ysteinePeP

They seem to be a step up from regular cysteine and even NAC.

Detox occurs because of the Glut...."Cysteine is a precursor for the production of glutathione in the liver.* The body utilizes glutathione in support of liver detoxification."

 

[Bryan]

As for green tea - I asked him to stop drinking it in high amounts daily and his male pattern baldness stopped. Go figure. lol

I figure he didn't really have male pattern baldness.

 

[Hoppi]

A little bit of food for thought. I am very interested in this topic and feel the science backs up alot of what you are saying about the function and functioning of the liver. I think you are overstepping your bounds a bit in claiming a "cure"...you are only seeing hairloss from your own perspective (Norwood 1) not the big picture (those of us who have already lost a significant amount hair and are considered balding...not just thinning)...that being said.... I do feel measures along these lines may be more of a preventative or help delay the onset of the inevitable. One good question right now would be to ask what makes the liver go wrong? What do we do to interfere with its function? Not to tred on Brains Expel Hair's territory...but it is our diet! So...to make a long story short....eat better and the liver will take care of itself! If you have delved into this topic a little, then you will understand what I'm saying when I say that Paleo man never did a liver detox or a colon clense.....I know, I know...but he didn't eat the "western diet" and he wasn't exposed to all the toxins that we are today! :sobbing:

Bottom line...autopsies do not confirm the "sludge" claims :shock:

I hate to muddy the waters with some facts...but the dead don't lie!

Science does support the fatty liver...as shown by the excellent work of squeegee!! :bravo: (not ashamed to say I am a fan of your work!)

Sadly...it is very, very, very, difficult (not impossible) to "cure" (make whole...return to original...completely heal...reverse damage..epigenetics...you get the idea) significant hairloss through supplements and clenses.

I'm all for (and trying myself) to "optimize" liver function. I know you have moved away from it slightly but I believe insulin is a major component in this fight. You may be onto the right organ but handling it in the wrong way! (sorry....couldn't resist the inference :woot: )

Anyway..thanks for your hard work......and please.... for those who are new or just browsing,,,please know that this is hard, tedious, and fascinating work.


Keep up the fight and know that while I disagree with your conclusion I don't disagree with your lines of thinking. :salut:

Heya man good to see you here, thanks for the thoughts on everything! Just a few responses!

First of all, on the topic of biliary sludge, it is quite recognized scientifically, as a more dispersed build-up of cholesterol in the intrahepatic ducts, gallbladder and biliary tree than actual cholesterol stones or calcified stones (the only ones that show up on scans). Here:

http://www.google.com/search?q=biliary+sludge

Other than calcium and cholesterol (fat), the only other "build-up" we really need to watch is that of parasites such as flukes, which can block the bile ducts, bung up and then release toxins into the liver, damaging it from the inside. As I may have said in this thread - bile is ESSENTIAL for removal of toxins and dead hormones. It's excreted with everything else when you have a bowel movement, basically. The kidneys too do filter the blood as they make urine, but their role in clearing hormones is not as great, and they seem a far less likely culprit for male pattern baldness in most people.

As for those who have been losing longer... I think often it's just the gradual, cumulative effects of a struggling liver.

I mean when you think about it logically there are 4 places that can present an individual's "weak link" that leads to Androgenetic Alopecia/male pattern baldness.

1) Too much testosterone is being produced in the testes, ovaries (in women, ofc) or adrenals.

2) Too much testosterone is being converted to DHT by 5-alpha reductase (either in the follicles themselves or systemically).

3) The follicles are too sensitive genetically to the DHT they are ultimately exposed to.

4) Not enough DHT and testosterone are being REMOVED from the body, principally by the liver and the SHBG it releases.

There may also be other less common possibilities such systemic or localized (scalp) inflammation or increased sebum production, but I would say these account for a much smaller % of male pattern baldness cases. Additionally, number (3) is without doubt a hypothetical, as for all we know there could be underlying, discrete causes for what might appear to be follicular reaction to healthy baseline androgen levels. Things such as SHBG levels, inflammation and sebum levels are all possible. To prove that some individuals are simply too sensitive for their baseline androgen levels, you would need to run detailed tests on individuals covering all these potential factors and determine that none were culprits in swaying things in favour of male pattern baldness.

I believe the evidence as I've said points to the liver looking guilty in MOST people, but whether this is principally due to fat (and/or cholesterol stones), calcified stones, parasites, overburdening with other hormones (such as insulin) or substances/toxins (such as alcohol), or underproduction of SHBG (also affected by hormones such as insulin and cortisol) may be more down to the individual.

It seems to me that removing cholesterol, parasites and any calcified stones from the liver, gb and biliary tree should be goal number one, however it is achieved. I reckon this should be enough for most people.

Optionally/ideally then goal number two should be (ordered by probable importance) lowering of insulin (blood sugar lowering hormone), cortisol (primary stress hormone), toxins (eg chemicals and those created by alcohol consumption), and also ideally cleaning up the kidneys with something like regular watermelon consumption and the intestines with high amounts of fibre, water (and/or Oxy-powder or Colonix) and some probiotics.

By that point I'd imagine most individuals are probably regulating their hormones far better again and male pattern baldness will cease, and significantly reverse. Goal 2 as I say may actually be unnecessary for most anyway if number 1 is achieved.

And I guess that's about it! It's true that clearing the biliary system (inc the liver & gb) of fat and parasites will not cure us all. But I currently believe it will cover the largest percentage of us

If you'd like to cover insulin as well, I'd recommend just drinking lots of pure pomegranate juice (or taking lipoic acid if you want, but I would favour the pomegranate) and not overdoing refined sugars too much!

Right, phew! That's enough for now!

Hoppi

 

[squeegee]

Thanks again Jacob! I will go with the one from Allergy research! Cystein Peptide is better than NAC for sure... NAC can also have nasty side effects..

“NAC fools the body into thinking that it has an oxygen shortage,â€￾ said Dr. Ben Gaston, UVa Children’s Hospital pediatrician and researcher who led the study. “We found that an NAC product formed by red blood cells, know as a nitrosothiol, bypasses the normal regulation of oxygen sensing. It tells the arteries in the lung to ‘remodel’; they become narrow, increasing the blood pressure in the lungs and causing the right side of the heart to swell.â€￾


I am an obsessive runner so NAC is a big no-no.

Thanks for the support idontwanttobebalding!.. I always encourage the people to get more involved.. Please guys stop being a spectators! Join us!!

 

[cuebald]

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRel ... ushes.html

 

[GeminiX]

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/flushes.html

Excellent network of sites right there; essential reading for anyone considering using alternative remedies.