male pattern baldness as connected to prostate size, is this not true?

[Hoppi]

Just been reading about this, as of course recently I thought "ok, so let's say my DHT has increased..... why?"

And obviously all these theories start to fly around. Testosterone levels (unlikely), estrogen levels (this just makes limited sense to me) and this one:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_causes_i ... DHT_levels

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihydrotestosterone

"Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) is an androgen, synthesized primarily in the prostate gland, testes, hair follicles, and adrenal glands by the enzyme 5?-reductase by means of reducing the 4,5 double-bond of the hormone testosterone."

http://www.ehealthmd.com/library/prosta ... auses.html

"The third growth phase occurs during the mid-20s, when the weight of the prostate gland increases to approximately 18 grams."

Ok, the big question to me in this now..... does a larger prostate gland produce more DHT? That would make sense, but I believe if it does........... doesn't that make sense?

Cheers guys, I know this has probably been covered tons but, I am just so curious as to what might have caused my DHT to rise (assuming it has, which seems likely).

Hoppi


EDIT -- It's so weird isn't it. Because herbal treatments such as saw palmetto are often used as they are believed to shrink the prostate, and yet have limited effects on male pattern baldness. Why on EARTH does DHT become more of a problem as men age. COULD it be the prostate?

DOUBLE EDIT Apparently in studies the correlation between prostate size and male pattern baldness severity is quite evident. This is interesting, as it does seem that the key ages for male pattern baldness starting (which in my experience seem to be 18, 25, and middle age) are coincidentally the same ages that the prostate normally enlarges.

 

[nickypoos]

Supper happy hoppi theory fun time!

 

[Bryan]

EDIT -- It's so weird isn't it. Because herbal treatments such as saw palmetto are often used as they are believed to shrink the prostate, and yet have limited effects on male pattern baldness.

You appear to be in your usual state of ignorance and confusion, Hoppi. Why would you expect your prostate to have any significant effect on male pattern baldness? Haven't I explained to you that DHT doesn't have much of a role as an endocrine hormone?

Why on EARTH does DHT become more of a problem as men age. COULD it be the prostate?

DHT generated in the prostate affects mainly the prostate, not your hair. Do you have hair growing on your prostate?

DOUBLE EDIT Apparently in studies the correlation between prostate size and male pattern baldness severity is quite evident. This is interesting, as it does seem that the key ages for male pattern baldness starting (which in my experience seem to be 18, 25, and middle age) are coincidentally the same ages that the prostate normally enlarges.

Prostate size and male pattern baldness are only indirected related, not causally related. Learn the difference.

 

[Hoppi]

But surely the same thing is acting upon both. Whether the growth of the prostate is causing hair loss or merely being triggered by the same thing as hair loss, it seems so weird that studies CONFIRM that these things go hand in hand.

And hair growing on the prostate? The prostate has no follicles lol

 

[TheGrayMan2001]

I guess those NW7's who never get prostate enlargement are in for a surprise.

 

[macimate]

You're a f*****g mental case, seriously.

 

[Hoppi]

Are people actually scared to investigate the biology behind hair loss or something?

Isn't knowledge power? That's why I do it, because the better you understand something the better equipped you are to deal with it.

If you Google it, the screen fills up:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=male+pattern+baldness+prostate


There is also a study that directly correlates the two, but I can't be bothered to find it at the moment lol

 

[OverMachoGrande]

Are people actually scared to investigate the biology behind hair loss or something?

Isn't knowledge power? That's why I do it, because the better you understand something the better equipped you are to deal with it.

I agree you are passionate about the subject Hoppi but you have to understand that you change your ideas and regimen it seems every few weeks and as soon as you say something is working and people are getting behind your regimen, you then state that it's not working and you were wrong and are losing hair.

After that you come back and have another idea for a treatment and it starts all over again. You have been on this board for a very short amount of time and changed you regimen so frequently and to be honest maybe some of your treatments would have worked but you did not give them enough time. I use the Big 3 and got good results but it took a year to get them. If I gave up within a few month I would never have the hair I have and would always say the treatments did nothing for me.

I am not putting you down at all and in fact do admire you for your passion to cure or treat male pattern baldness and encourage you to keep at it. I am simply trying to explain why some users are getting frustrated with you because you state you have "figured it out" and then state "it doesn't work" a few months later and do this over and over.

The advice I would give you is to give more time to the treatments you use and give them a fair shot, I mean what if you did find something that worked awesome but because you only used it 2 months and gave up you would never know. Just slow down and give things time to work and then move on to the next.

You are an asset to the board and add energy here and I sure hope one day you do find the cure. I just wanted to explain this as well as let you know that I appreciate that you do not give up and keep trying.

 

[Hoppi]

aw thanks man and yeah I'm sorry for being so hyperactive ._. lol

The thing is erm, it's not that I no longer believe any of the things I have spoken about over the time I've been a member here. Most things I've said I still believe play a part, although yeah I think I have a habit of declaring them all with FAR too much confidence and then calming down later hehe

I guess it's just the way I learn...

I think it seems crazy from the outside but it all makes perfect sense in my head lol

Ah well, Uni soon so less time for hair obsessing!

 

[Bryan]

But surely the same thing is acting upon both.

Yes. The same thing is acting on both, but with an important distinction: DHT generated in the prostate is mainly what's causing prostate enlargement. DHT generated in hair follicles is mainly what's causing male pattern baldness. See what I'm saying?

Whether the growth of the prostate is causing hair loss or merely being triggered by the same thing as hair loss, it seems so weird that studies CONFIRM that these things go hand in hand.

It seems "weird" to you because I think you have only a rather superficial understanding of what's going on.

 

[mpbsux20]

But surely the same thing is acting upon both.

 

[TheGrayMan2001]

I think Hoppi's problem stems 100% from fear to try finasteride at a full dose because he thinks he's going to grow man boobs and become a woman.

No offense to you personally Hoppi, this seems to be a problem with way too many people on other hair loss forums as well, you're just more hyperactive in posting than most of them.

I was scared to take the plunge too but now I'm seeing regrowth in my hairline, no more scalp itching, and what appears to be the beginning of regrowth after taking 1.25 Fincar every day for the past (almost) 4 months.

 

[Hoppi]

My body reacted badly to a full dose of finasteride

 

[balanceguardian]

Sometimes amidst states of chronic depression i have been known to masturbate and not stop after one ejaculation. I have a very small refractory period and can contract my prostate to force multiple orgasms.

I have always thought that this kind of masturbation practice is what really destroys my hair as whenever i have gone through periods of strictly limiting myself to one orgasm per session, my hair has always improved. Im talking about months at a time and not just a days good practice.

Just wanna say that the nights when i give myslef excessive multiple orgasms, the following few days my prostate feels enlarged and amazingly sore.

Could this information be relevant in any way. Hoppi?

 

[balanceguardian]

Hey Hoppi i like the way you learn.

We all know that we know very little about the whole balding process. In fact we know very little about the deeper mechanics of the entire human body.

People like bryan will take the information from tests on small parts of the bodies mechanisms and use that to promote their position of knowledge.

I think that everything is too complex to just say that just because x happens y must happen.

This is a very hypothetical post as im not well informed enough to give examples of what i mean but i hope some of you get what i mean.

Just wanna say that i pretty much agree to some extent with almost everything Hoppi says. If i had the motivation he has to learn and study then i would no doubt be at the same point of knowledge and understanding as him. With male pattern baldness i really do believe that there are about 50 lifestyle factors that contribute and within that about 5 to 10 major factors.

Im convinced that the arousal and orgasm mechanism is one of these major factors. Cortisol levels must be another major factor. SHBG levels must be another factor. Collagen production must be another factor. Fungal activity of the skin must be another major factor. Proloactin Levels must be a factor. Testosterone, DHT and and Estrogen balance must be another factor. Prostate size must be another factor.

Its why no one has ever nailed male pattern baldness coz there are too many variables.

I think everyone has a few major contributers to speeding up the male pattern baldness process and if we talk about it with anecdotal evidence then we can help each other find good practices to slow it down.

Even this website advises to start off with proven treatments and then work your way down. Just goes to show that not everyone is effected by male pattern baldness for the same reasons.

 

[TheGrayMan2001]

My body reacted badly to a full dose of finasteride

For how long? What sides? I don't remember seeing a post about it lol.

 

[theShade]

Hey Hoppi i like the way you learn.

We all know that we know very little about the whole balding process. In fact we know very little about the deeper mechanics of the entire human body.

People like bryan will take the information from tests on small parts of the bodies mechanisms and use that to promote their position of knowledge.

I think that everything is too complex to just say that just because x happens y must happen.

Well you gotta start somewhere. Generally speaking, as complex as the body is - if you vary x and there is a corresponding change in y; then you know that those two factors have a relationship of some kind. May not be a direct one of course, but you can start to narrow things down and conduct further tests.

It is also perfectly legitimate to focus on a smaller sub-section on the human body. You can for example speculate and hypothesise on how androgens bind to receptors and affect hair follicles, without having to go into neuroscience and trying to find out everything about how the human brain works.

Just wanna say that i pretty much agree to some extent with almost everything Hoppi says. If i had the motivation he has to learn and study then i would no doubt be at the same point of knowledge and understanding as him. With male pattern baldness i really do believe that there are about 50 lifestyle factors that contribute and within that about 5 to 10 major factors.

You could be right, and then you could be wrong. It could be 50 lifestyle factors, it could be 5, it could be none, it could be 200. Hell, I'm also convinced that lifestyle factors have an affect on the balding process, maybe even a major one. They probably also have an affect on Cancer, Diabetes, all the other ailments too. Problem is, I don't know what these lifestyle factors are and neither does anyone else, and trying to find out is incredibly complicated; scientists over the last decades have so far had few concrete results. I suspect that they also vary from person to person, different lifestyle factors will have different 'weights'/importance depending on the person's genetic makeup. May go some way to explaining the multitude of baldness treatments over the centuries, and various claims of them working that haven't been replicated by others.

Ultimately It will probably be easier just to treat baldness with stem-cells or other such treatments. In the meantime our best-bet is sticking to what we know does work, such as Propecia. I think that this is precisely the reason why doctors continue to prescribe it, regardless of whatever circumstancial evidence they may be for anything else.

Im convinced that the arousal and orgasm mechanism is one of these major factors. Cortisol levels must be another major factor. SHBG levels must be another factor. Collagen production must be another factor. Fungal activity of the skin must be another major factor. Proloactin Levels must be a factor. Testosterone, DHT and and Estrogen balance must be another factor. Prostate size must be another factor.

Its why no one has ever nailed male pattern baldness coz there are too many variables.

Your conviction does not the truth make. Any of those assumptions could be correct, and any one of them could be wrong. As you said yourself, there are too many variables. What we have got so far, is that DHT is a factor, while fungal activity of the skin may lead to temporary hair loss. Everything else you posted is wild speculation.