Making a Topical "Cocktail"

[Johnx]

Ok, I have some different topicals purchased some time ago but I don't use them simply because I don't have time for multiple applications. I was wondering if I would mix them all together with minoxidil and use it every night, would it be effective? Wouldn't the ingredients conflict with each other?

Here's a recipe I'm planning to mix:

1. Minoxidil (5% or 15%)
2. 5% S5 Spironolactone cream
3. 2% Miconazole Nitrate cream
4. Flutamide tablets 250mg
5. Finasteride tablets 5mg
6. Dutasteride capsules 0.5mg

I'm planning to use a dermaroller and apply this cocktail before bed every night. (additionally I use Rogaine 5% foam every morning/evening + Finasteride & Vitamins orally).

 

[The_Mentalist]

I stumbled upon a link to a pharmaceutical trial that used minoxidil, dutasteride, finasteride (and I think Azelaic acid) topical mix and found it to be very successful working in all subjects in the experiment. So, I think those can be mixed. I have also found minoxidil and dutasteride mix to be producing results.

There was some talk in some forums somewhere that Flut and/or spironolactone degrades minoxidil molecules or vice versa, so I would be careful with those. I think it was spironolactone that some were warning not to mix in minoxidil. If you are using oral AA, then I would drop Flut altogether. It did not do anything from experience I observed.

I think the main ingredients should be stimulants and anti-inflammation agents that you have them covered both with minoxidil and Miconazole. I dont know if Mic. would degrade with any.

You have not specified the quantity proportions you are using; but I would make small solution for lasting a week or so, so they do not degrade with time.

 

[Johnx]

Mentalist, thanks a million for super useful info! Crap, I was hoping to use up the spironolactone this way as I have 3 containers and never have time to use it... You were right - I googled and there were doctors replies that spironolactone and minoxidil degrade each other over longer time (very bad smell is a proof of this reaction). I guess I'll just apply spironolactone right on top of the "cocktail".

I haven't found anything about Flut + minoxidil combo though... Are you sure these two cannot be mixed?

Also, can you suggest some proportions of the mix?

Thanks again

 

[The_Mentalist]

No, actually I am not sure about flut/minoxidil mix. So, cant tell you about possible reaction with each other.

This is what I do know. Flutamide is available in 2% solutions in experimental market. I can tell you 2% solution is more than enough. It is quite potent; and has small molecular weight making it easily absorbed into scalp, and potentially systemic. And even with just 2% solution applied topically, you might find side effects right away. Penis thingy, no libido, no semen etc. It is potentially harmful to liver ..So be careful.

To make 2% Flut solution of it, you will need to crush 20 mg in 1 ml ratio. 1 ml being just 1 minoxidil dropper. Flut comes in 250mg tabs, so you will dissolve it in about 12.5 ml of minoxidil. to get 2% Flut minoxidil solution of only 12.5 ml.

Since 2% might be too potent, then you would simply dissolve 1 flut 250mg tab into about half the minoxidil bottle 30 ml (ideally 25 ml of it) to make it diluted to about 1% sol. It will give you approx. 15 day supply of a approx. 1% solution and using it twice a day. Tinker around the conc if you feel 1% is too low, then just crush additional half tab or so to make it more concentrated, but never more than 2 flut 250 mg tabs in half the bottle of minoxidil (30ml). Never go higher than 2% flut solution.

(I have about 30 Flutamide 250mg (Cytomid) exp. in 2015 that I do not think I will use. So, if someone wants them, PM me for more info.)

finasteride. topical is also available, I think it is sold in 0.025% conc, so I am thinking this might be an optimum dosage. I have not heard any problem of it with minoxidil. So try it. To make 0.025% of it, you would simply crush and dissolve .25 mg of 1 mg finasteride (1/4 finasteride tab) in 1 ml. So the solution you have with flut/minoxidil of about 30 ml, you would simply add 7.5mg or about 8 finasteride tabs into the solution. You have 5mg tabs, so you would need 1 and half of it. But, hey what the heck, just dump 2 5mg finasteride tab into that 30 ml sol. It will give you slightly stronger than 0.025% finasteride sol. and see what happens.

Now you have minoxidil/finasteride/Flut solution in 30 ml. I would add no more than 2 dutasteride 0.5 mg tabs or gelcaps into this 30 ml solution. dutasteride is quite strong, so that should be more than enough just for topical application considering the whole systemic dose is only 0.5 mg. And two of those will buy you about 15 day topical, I think is fair enough. If anything, add additional dutasteride 0.5mg tab or gelcap (puncture the gelpcap with a toothpick and squeeze the liquid into the solution. When you squeeze, make sure you not touch the puncture hole side of the gelcap or it will be wasted into your fingers). dutasteride molecular weight is relatively large. Let's hope it penetrates the skin.

spironolactone, you know you cant mix. But know that spironolactone has Sulphur atom in it, so even in an acohol base, you might find some Sulphur odour.

The Mic. that comes in cream form is probably loaded with other inactive ingredients to make skin smooth etc. Mixing it with the solution would give you sticky and gooey end product which might be messy when applied. So, just see if you can eliminate that from the mix for now.

Let me know if I made any errors in calculations there. I am typing it in a hurry. The above is just rough guidelines and there is no hard and fast rule, so tinker around with it and let us know if minoxidil/finasteride/dutasteride/Flu solution works for you.

Also, check my previous post where I detailed how to make spironolactone topical with nizoral shampoo

 

[Johnx]

Mentalist, I can't thank you enough for being so kind and helpful :notworthy

I've used 2% Flutamide solution (G.e.n.h.a.i.r) for ~4 months and I didn't see any results from it, but I'll give Flut another shot and add it to the mix. I'll definitely make 2% solution as I've never experienced any sides from G.e.n.h.a.i.r.'s one. One thing about dissolving Flut tablets (I've experimented with dissolving it before but never used it because of the following reason) - I've crushed the pills into fine powder, however it still didn't dissolve in minoxidil - I'm now thinking was it just the carrier/filler not dissolving or the active Flut too? If it's just the filler left undissolved, I guess it can be filtered out after making a solution.

As for Miconazole, I have it in cream form (tube), I've mixed it before with minoxidil and it dissolves pretty well - not gooey at all.

One last question - can you drop me a link where you posted how to make a spironolactone + Nizoral topical? I looked through your recent activity but can't seem to find it... Is this topical applied as shampoo while showering, then washed off? spironolactone + nizoral not conflicting?

 

[The_Mentalist]

Ok, flut is soluble in ethanol 50mg/ml. Assuming it is 100% alc., then you can make about max. 5% Flut solution in alco. I used rubbing alc (70% Isopropyl), and it gave the confirmation which is that it should give you lightly yellow tinted or yellowish green tint but still transparent solution. But you would be using for no more than 20 mg/ml, so you should be fine.

However, there is caution to it. SInce minoxidil solution has partial alc and PG, and I am not sure about flut solubility in PG, so your 1 ml minoxidil liquid for 20mg flut tabs might be tricky. This is because that 1 ml already has minoxidil dissolved in it, and coupled that with PG in there, I am not sure if flut solubility would be reduced significantly if at all. Considering, 50 mg tab for 1 ml in pure alco, and only you would be using only 20mg in minoxidil sloution, I am thinking you should still be ok with dissolving 20mg to 1 ml minoxidil sol. ratio. The debris that you might see at the bottom is just the debris then.

I would suggest you dissolve flut in minoxidil first, shake it few times and then let it settle for a day or so. Then filter the liquid, now containing flut molecule. On this note, I would speculate that coffee filters and others may not be good idea because we dont know if the minoxidil or Flut molecules would also be trapped behind in the filter if its not that porous. So, I would use a transparent jar that is long, and not wide. Let the devris settle at bottom, and then use minoxidil dropper to transfer the liquid solution and leaving the debris behind. In that way, you know that molecules are not left behind trapped in filters.

Also note that you will probably be using your mix twice a day with 1ml application per dose. So, with 2% flut, you would basically be applying about 40mg of flut molecules into your scalp, and some of which possibly be going systemic. SO, be aware of that too.

When I used flut even reduced to less than 2% ratio, and I used it a fraction of 1ml dose, and it was still strong enough. So, I am surprised you did not get anything. It is interesting to note that G e n h a i r has flut sol. on sale in discontinued products. I wonder why ! didn't work

You can use dutasteride caps/liquid form easily into the solution.


You basically wasted your money down the drain with that solution when you could get flut for dirt cheap and alc for less than $3 for like 16 oz, and you could have run your flut solution for pennies a month, I mean literally.

Anyway, here is the link to another very easy and inexpensive something to try with not much fear of any sides

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interac...onolactone-in-shower?highlight=exotic+regimen

Keep us updated with your progress on this cocktail

 

[Johnx]

I have 99.5% Isopropyl alcohol - I was thinking first dissolving Flut in small amount of Isopropyl, then pour it into minoxidil - do you think this would help Flut's dissolution in minoxidil?

I totally get your thoughts about G-e-n-h-a-i-r Flut – I knew it can be homemade a lot cheaper, but I was thinking commercial solution would be more reliable. But as I mentioned before, didn't experience any results or sides from it. You've mentioned you used less than 2% solution/less than 1ml and it was strong - what exactly did you experience? Regrowth/Sides? When did you start seeing regrowth?

I used about 3-4ml of G-e-n-h-a-i-r-s 2% Flut per every application and didn't feel a thing... It must be total crap or I'm a total non-responder... I was planning to use their 15% minoxidil as a cocktail base, but now starting to hesitate if their minoxidil is just the same crap too...

Actually I don't get wtf is wrong with me, I don't seem to get any results lately, and never experienced any side effects. I'm taking 1.25mg finasteride (100% legit) + 2000mg Saw Palmetto every day - shouldn't this bring at least slightest side effects to show they're doing something? How common is that?

 

[The_Mentalist]

Ok, so let's say you want to have 30 ml minoxidil c***. with 2% flut in it. That means there should be 600 mg of flut tabs/molecules in 30 ml so that you may have 2% flut. as end product.

Now, flut solubility is 50mg/ml of alc. Lets assume it is the same solubility for whatever alchol you use. We are just doing it at home, so everything goes, just based on rough estimates. It is not rocket fuel, so we can just rely on our limited expertise here. So, to dissolve 600mg of flut in that alcohol with a minimum amount of alc needed would be about 12 ml (minimum you need). So, you would need minimum 12 ml of that alcohol to dissolve 600 mg in it before you would pour that into minoxidil 30 ml. As you can see, it will simply increase 30ml of minoxidil to 42 ml right there.

But by doing so, you just diluted your 2% even more, and now your 2% flut/alc sol will be less than 2% flut in minoxidil mix. How less would depend on how much alcohol is there in minoxidil solution. This is where it is not easy to do. Manufacturers list the inactive ingredients on bottles, but they do not list what proportion of each ingredient they used-it is proprietary business secret.

On similar note, your 42ml flut mixture will be less than 2%, and also your minoxidil solution would decrease from 5% minoxidil to around 3.5% because you would be diluting the mixture with more alcohol.

As you can see, this needs whole chemistry analysis of everything which is not possible at home. So, I would just assume that at least 15 ml out of 30 ml of minoxidil is alcohol. (I dont know if flut is soluble in PG which is the other ingredient in minoxidil solutions).

So this what you need to do. Simply dissolve 600 mg flut tabs in 30ml of minoxidil solution, shake it well few times every so many minutes and then leave it for at least a day for the binders to settle down and then just extract the liquid. In that way, you will have theoretically, by our assumptions, a 2% flut and 5% intact minoxidil solution.

Even if the whole 600 mg of actual flut does not dissolve suspended in the 30 ml minoxidil liquid, and settled at bottom, at least you would have the maximum of flut dissolved in minoxidil anyway. ANd any little that may not have dissolved would be wasted in the binders at bottom. It is dirt inexpensive, so no worries there going waste!

If you want to make the whole 60ml minoxidil solution, then you know you would simply double the quantity we discussed above.

One thing I remember now reading somewhere, about flutamide molecule being "fragile." So, do not crush it with any heavy object. It might break the 3D molecular structure/shape of it rendering it inactive. Rather just throw the pill inside liquid and shake it periodically. It will soften and disperse on its own easily. Ignore where I said "crush."
----------

No, those people are not really "commercial," but are actually home made sellers themselves. No, when I said it was strong. I meant side effect wise. I think I am pretty sure it was flut that was giving me numbness, and burning at tip, and dry semen.

I saw nothing and in fact, I started seeing hair growing at temples when I stopped it. But, I had been using some other stuff together, so I am unsure what is exactly working but have ideas. Discontinuing flut really did not stop my progress that I am still seeing, so I know that flut was unnecessary for me, at least at that time.

If you were using so much flut., and felt nothing, that I am afraid there was something wroong with the batch you received.

2000 mg SP is too much, I am surprised it is not giving you any headache. If you have used finasteride for a long time, and you want to see some more results in terms of growth, then I would suggest dutasteride orally. It might do a miracle. Or, try the dutasteride/minoxidil topical-I think it is working for me

 

[Johnx]

Thanks again for the directions Mentalist, I'll make the cocktail tomorrow or on friday and start using it before bed.

Here's what I'm going to do:

I'll probably just toss 4x250mg Flut tabs into 15ml of 99.5% alcohol, let it dissolve/sit for a day or two, then suck out the liquid, leaving the binders at bottom - hoping this will leave me with ~10ml~800mg Flut liquid. I'll then pour it into 30ml Kirkland 5% minoxidil, add 4-5 5mg finasteride tabs, 4-5 0.5mg dutasteride caps, and squeeze some Miconazole. I guess it should leave me with ~50ml solution. How's that for a cocktail?

I know you'll probably say it's a bit too strong, but what the heck, at least I'll try and see. The finasteride and dutasteride I'll use in the cocktail is bought online from United-Pharmacies so I don't even know if it's legit... I took this finasteride orally for more than a year, and the dutasteride for about 6 months - felt no sides, not sure about results either (the finasteride I'm taking for 1.5 months now is 100% legit prescribed by dermatologist, but still feeling no sides).
Now when you mentioned that Saw Palmetto can give headache, yes I have them from time to time but rarely, but that might be caused by something other than SP... I'm taking 2000-2500mg SP everyday, try to reduce it to 1500mg and see if I can notice feeling any better..


Mentalist - do you have a "Tell your story" thread I could follow? You seem like a smart/well educated guy on this subject, I'd like to see your regimen and results
Also - where are you from? Europe or USA? I might want to buy that Flut from you if you're from EU

Oh, and please drop me a link to that spironolactone+nizoral topical you've mentioned, I'm interested

Thanks again!

 

[psyhotria]

I've used 2% Flutamide solution (G.e.n.h.a.i.r) for ~4 months and I didn't see any results from it, but I'll give Flut another shot and add it to the mix.

Oh well this is likely because flutamide is quite instable in solution. Thus if you intend to use it make sure to make small batches for just a few days. Also if you use dutasteride then finasteride appears superfluous; same thing goes for spironolactone.

 

[The_Mentalist]

I would say the cocktail looks good. I always like to start "small" because I want to see a "threshold' that works fine without burdening the body with excessive chemicals/meds. You reserve not-used treatments for later, just in case

United is one of these three pharmacies I know that are good with great CS. Those meds are made in India, so they are already making a lot of money in terms of currency conversion for them in their economy. I do not think they would do fakes as making fakes might as well cost more. But, it is always a possibility. Those online pharmacists have links to pharmacies there who send the products for them; so it is always a possibility that some bad apple pharmacist decides to ship some bad apples.

dutasteride, I have when I squeezed, it gave me kinds yellowish tinted liquid in water, but I am now on a different strip, and this time I am seeing white/transparent liquid with no color. But, that might be due to summer time where I am and it is sooooo humid now. With flut, I had mentioned it should give you light yellowish tint in liquid. Flut is also soluble in water but such a minute solubility that it wont work for this purpose. (Cet. dissolves well in water alone)

Psychotria is right about flut solution, flut is unstable molecule and that is why I mentioned not to crush it and I now remember reading something that it might be unstable in a solution. So, it is always a good idea to make small batches. ALso, never crush it, and when placed in a solution to dissolve, shake it very very slowly and gently, if at all. Vigorous shaking might break the molecule.

btw, I am not discounting Flut at all. It is probably a good addition for those who are not using anything and flut topical might stop dht from binding with AR in scalp; thus halting or reducing hairloss. spironolactone, though similar in AA category and mechanism, I believe, also helps with regrowth and/or quality of hair.


SP dose is 160mg twice daily of Saw Palmetto (standardized to 85-95 % fatty acids & sterols); so, its optimum for a single day is about 310mg. But you are taking about 8-10 times as much. I know from herbal experience that any herbal supplement, ginkgo, even ginseng sometimes, gave me headache. More does not always mean better. ALso note that it must be standardized to minimum 85% of the active ingredient. SOme brands have lower percentage.

I really do not have much to say about my "success" story yet, and if any. But, I am glad to give all kinds of advise whenever I can based on actual reading from real users and experience. So, in my posting, you will find some clues

I am not in EU and I dont know if your country inspects parcels and am not sure if I can send it; that it would be worthwhile for you.

I had included the link to that post. I guess it does not allow links or it was removed. So, do a search "Exotic Regimen" and two postings should pop up.

Thanks for the comments though. I appreciate very much. Chemistry has been one of my favorite subjects along with Psychology.

Feel free to list any questions you may have, somebody or I will see if we can help together to see what might come out to be efficient topical

 

[Johnx]

Regarding the spironolactone, I'm aware that there is a "Whole Berry" and "Extract" thing, as I understand 320mg daily is calculated in extract form? I'm totally confused now, You're clearly a better chemist than me, this is what I'm taking, maybe you can educate me for the right pill dosage... :

This one I take 3 pills a day:

and this one I take 2 pills a day (as you can see it's not SP alone, but SP among other ingredients):

 

[Jacob]

In case you weren't aware of this product: https://www.swansonvitamins.com/swa...-astaxanthin-prostate-complex-200-mg-60-sgels
There's probably new info out there on it..here's some old: http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/showthread.php/14516-Alphastat-Saw-Palmetto-Astaxanthin-combo

 

[The_Mentalist]

ok, I get it. The one you are taking is the whole plant shoot in it. There are brands that actually extract the active ingredient that is in question of interest here. You will notice, they make you take three times a day to get the optimum level of sterols/fatty acids that you like to; and they appear to be less price than others with standardized ones. This is a marketing tactic. They make it look like it is low price and then you see you need to take multiple times a day and the whole bottle does not even last a month. Needless to say you are pouring your body with whole bark and stuff that simply overwhelms your liver unnecessarily.

I have no idea what the active ingredient conc. is in there. But taking three times should get you the commonly agreed ingredient dose in your system, along with all those extra ingredients. Next time, look for the ones that say something like "standardized to 85% sisterols/fatty acids......" and those are the ones usually with less dosages per day. On this note, it is still a good idea to spread the dosage multiple times a day. This way, nothing gets wasted in the system and you have consistent supply of the ingredients. SP, mostly comes in powder form in a gelcap (but there are liquid forms and tabs also). If it says take one a day; you may simply unscrew the gelcap, and put like half powder directly in your mouth or in water and quickly run it to the stomach. And take the other half and some later. This might help with headaches. You may also just take half of the dose/day if your headache persists or even skip a day or two.

The Folligen has 25% extract (of 320mg), so they are making you take about 320 mg SP of it twice, so 640mg of it per day, and it would be only then 160 mg of SP actual extract for hair benefits you are taking in that capsule. What I have found, you need 160mg twice per day for 320mg of SP actual extract for hair benefits. SO, you will need to take Folligen about 4, not 2 per day of that capsule listed to just get total 320mg of the SP active ingredient. So, even then Folligen is really not a perfect SP dose; but still should theoretically do something. Upping the Folligen dose is not I am recommending because you will be upping everything else and will overwhelm your body, your organs.

All that said, if you are serious about SP route, then just buy those with 85-95% standardized ones, others are just marketing gimmicks. You are taking Folligen with it, so I am thinking it should still suffice your dose. Now I know your headache. Folligen has all other stuff like ginko; they do give headache that feel stemming from inside the brain. You can buy the same ingredient inexpensive in stores and take them in cut off pills etc. I am sure Folligen is expensive.

Also, note that gelatin is pork derived and most that are enclosed in gelcaps are gelatin. ANything pork derived should be avoided. I read a health book that adamantly warned against anything pork because it is highly inflammatory for the body, needless to say that it is not a clean animal etc.. There was just some kind of phenomena that described the Pork meat resembling human meat in structure, and your body immune system comes into play trying to reject it as an outsider enemy rather than digest and benefit from it. Thus, it leaves continuous inflammation all over the body. And inflammation is number one enemy to body health

 

[Johnx]

I suspected these may not be as good as the extract...
However I'll consume these anyway. So you say it would be more beneficial to take direct powder without clear gelatin capsule? This is how both of these supplements look like:

Swanson SP is powder, but I think it's actually finely ground herbs/berries. I have no problem opening them each time and taking the powder with a glass of water, do you think this way the body would absorb it more efficiently? I would take a capsule three times a day - morning, afternoon, night.

Foligain actually looks like it's also made from similar ground powder, but it's just compressed into a tablet, no gelatin capsule.


Next time I buy SP, I'll make sure they are in extract form..

 

[Jacob]

Just a FYI..not all gelatin or gelcaps are made from pork. There are a lot made from beef...then there's plant..etc
And see my post above on SP getting a boost from astaxanthin.

 

[Johnx]

Ok, so I finally made the "cocktail". It didn't go 100% as planned and I ended up with 50ml+ of the solution... This is what I did:


1. Took 3 Flutamide tablets, splitted them in half and dropped into 12ml 99.5% Isopropyl Alcohol. I waited 24 hours and noticed the tablets were still in pieces, haven't disintegrated at all - so I just "wiggled" the bottle lightly and left for another 24 hours. Sadly they still were in halves, so I just poured everything to a shot glass and crushed them - they were all soaked with alcohol so just a few light squeezes were needed and it quickly turned into fine thin "sludge". After ~5mins of sitting the sludge sat down to the bottom and the liquid was on top.


2. Took another shot glass, dropped 5 Finasteride tablets, squeezed 5 Dutasteride capsules on top. Crushed them into fine paste. Diluted the paste with a few ml of Flut-Alchohol to make it thinner, so I can suck out the finasteride-dutasteride sludge with a dropper.


3. Using dropper I transfered finasteride-dutasteride sludge to now "layered" Flut-Alcohol glass. Now it contains finasteride-dutasteride-Flut-Alcohol sludge - I stirred that good to make sure it's mixed. Let it sit so the sludge sets to the bottom.


4. Took a bottle with 30ml of Minoxidil and squeezed probably about 5-7ml of Miconazole cream into it. Shook the bottle hard and the minoxidil quite nicely mixed with Mico, resulting in white liquid.


5. Transferred the finasteride-dutasteride-Flut-Alcohol liquid to the Mico-minoxidil. Shaken the mixture lightly and what I have left is 50ml of finasteride-dutasteride-Flut-Mico-Minoxidil. Sounds nice, it would even be nicer if it could bring some regrowth I think a good addition would be Azelaic Acid, unfortunately I didn't have any..




The only thing I'm a bit fearful, is that the sludge left at bottom still contains a big part of active ingredients. Let's hope at least some of them actually dissolved in liquid...

- - - Updated - - -

Just a FYI..not all gelatin or gelcaps are made from pork. There are a lot made from beef...then there's plant..etc
And see my post above on SP getting a boost from astaxanthin.

Yes, thanks for the tip, I will look for these when my current SP runs out.