Itch & Tingle

Confused

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Is there anyway to stop the itch and tingle on my head? Im always thinking about my thinning hair and if i stop thinking about it the itch and tingle remind me.

I use nizoral once a week and have started using tricomin shampoo, conditioner, & spray daily.

I have been on propecia for about a month. Will propecia help with this eventually?

Any ideas!?!
 

Confused

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I woke up the happiest I've been in a long time today. Itch was gone all day. I put hydrocortisone on my dome overnight in an act of desperation and it worked. 10pm and still no itch! When I look in the mirror it appears I have more hair also, just from not being itchy!

Felt so good I even quit smoking today. I swear!

This is a problem that should be discussed more often. It makes a big difference.

I was using tgel in the am and aloe at night for almost 2 years and it worked great. Then I built a tolerance...the itch came back and then my hair started falling out fast!

This combo was all I used for hair loss. I used it for a long time and it worked. Which leads me to believe eliminating the itch is very important.

If anyone has any remedies please post them now!!! I don't think its safe to keep using hydrocortisone.

The same treatment will not work for everybody. I have never had dandruff in my life and still don't. So my problem may be different than other peoples. I think my scalp is too dry maybe? Can I put lotion on my head or something?

Please post all you know about scalp itch here and now!
 

Follically Challenged

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Propecia definately helped but my itch is kind of back after almost 3 years of using it. Nothing that really bothers me though.
 
G

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my head itches too

but sometimes that's because i forget to shampoo for 3 or 4 days
 

docj077

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Hair loss seems to fall into a few different categories with a designation such as male pattern baldness not necessarily fitting all of them. There are many different types of alopecia and many of them have been noted, studied, and even given the opportunity for treatment.

For me, androgenic alopecia is divided into three categories:

1.Fibrosing alopecia consisting of temple recession with vertex balding being accompanied by an underlying fibrotic process secondary to androgen mediated release of TGF-beta and subsequent tissue remodeling controlled by dermal fibroblasts. 5AR inhibitors, DHT antagonists and TGF-beta antagonists all help treat this disease process. I will be quite interested to see what happens when TGF-beta receptor antagonists come out on the market. In lung, liver, and other tissues, when you remove TGF-beta from the picture through inhibition, the fibrosis that TGF-beta produces actually disappears over time.

2.Alopecia secondary to immune mediated processes occurring during seborrheic dermatitis. Bacteria can infiltrate the sebaceous glands of the hair follicle unit and create pro-inflammatory fatty acids. This causes an increase in perifollicular infiltrates and immune system activation leading to inflammation, itchy scalp, and scalp pain. To treat this disease, a person needs not only a 5AR type II inhibitor, but something to control the secretion of the proinflammatory sebaceous secretions. The drugs of choice here are dutasteride for the inhibition of 5AR type I function preventing sebaceous secretions and Nizoral for its anti-androgenic activities. Also, topical anti-inflammatories are a must and those that end up using steriods to cure the scalp inflammation are probably doing the right thing as that inflammation leads to tissue remodeling and fibrosis similar to #1.

3.An alopecia that presents as an overall thinning response to androgens is number three. With these individuals it seems as though DHT's release of TGF-beta and the subsequent growth inhibition of said molecule is the major problem. These are the people with thinning hair that see huge benefits from simple DHT inhibitory drugs, because they are not typically dealing with a fibrotic process. They are merely dealing with a growth inhibition problem, but it can progress to fibrosis if this person is susceptible or allows their hair loss to continue without treatment. Propecia, Avodart, and all other anti-androgenic drugs will give these people results...up to a point.

Now, it's also obvious that these processes overlap in many individuals, but what I've written down is simply what I've seen on the web and on these forums. The drugs I've listed and the possible mechanisms are what I've deciphered from doing research. There currently isn't any subcategories for androgenic alopecia, it seems, and it really is a shame as it doesn't appear to be one disease, but many pathologies giving the same horrific result...male baldness.
 

hawks05

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that was awesome, thanks Doctor.

is there any natural things i could do/take for the TGF beta?
 

docj077

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hawks05 said:
that was awesome, thanks Doctor.

is there any natural things i could do/take for the TGF beta?

There are many things that a person could potentially do, but none of them involve drugs certified by the FDA for hair loss. The herbal route is about the only way a person can go with herbs like turmeric, bromelain, grape seed extract, and apple polyphenols (apple poly) possibly all having a positive effect on hair loss.

Personally, I take turmeric and bromelain, but I'm very weary and I don't plan on taking the two forever. TGF-beta inhibtion is a tricky thing and should probably be left to topicals. A topical using amacha, apple peel extract, turmeric, and grape seed extract is probably ideal as the herbs hopefully won't go systemic. If all else fails, simply applying apple cider vinegar to a one's head when combined with an anti-androgenic drug like propecia or finasteride could yield some results.

TGF-beta inhibition brings with it a double edged sword of possibilities. TGF-beta is normally a pro-apoptotic molecule in the fight against cancer, but it's also a molecule that can allow cancers to metastasize at a much faster rate. So, you take the good and you take the bad when using it as an internal. As an external, TGF-beta inhibition is probably a route that a person should explore as it has been used for that purpose around the world for centuries (psoriasis, etc.) and I've never seen a link between herbs like turmeric and cancer in any research.

I'm sort of experimenting with different herbs as I can't take 5AR inhibitors since they impact my ability to concentrate.
 

michael barry

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Doctor,

Why do you think apple cider vinegar would help TGF-beta? I assumed it would have +some+ B-2 apple proanthocyandins in it, but not B-3?


Have you done any research on barley extract B-3 proanthocyandins and their effect on TGF-beta 1?


You seem to fear that taking curcumin might aid developing cancers. Do you feel the cancer rate in India, where tumeric is eaten very often, reflects this as a concern?



Doctor...................my little cheapie idea on a topical with no-need to buy any extracts would be green apple peels boiled in apple cider vinegar and beer, with tumeric and crushed grape seeds thrown in the brew, perhaps along with some aloe vera juice and arginine. ..................a man could mix this up awfully cheap and have several month's supply at a time. Especially if he kept it refrigerated.


Enjoy reading your posts man.
 

docj077

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Michael Barry,

I have my doubts about TGF-beta inhibitory internals, but I do not believe that ingestion of turmeric in India is the cause. I checked out what sort of cancers seem to be endemic to India and I found the following:

-Aizawl-Highest incidence of lower pharyngeal and tongue cancer in men in the world

-New Dehli - Highest incidence of gallbladder cancer in women

-Wardha - Highest incidence of mouth cancer

-Pondicherry - Some of the highest rates of mouth and tongue cancers in men

- Kohima - One of the highest rates of nasopharyngeal cancer.

A person needs to remember that many cancers are multifactorial in their origin, but a person certainly does notice that this list is full of digestive system cancers, which would lead one to believe that it's something in the food. Turmeric is a spice that is used in India, but it's not the only spice used, so it would be tough to make such a conclusion. Also, nasopharyngeal cancer is more common in people who have been infected with Epstein-Barr virus (mononucleosis) and then have exposure to nitrosamines.

If turmeric is in the diet of these people and it is absorbed, then I would think you'd expect more disseminated cancers, as well...leukemias, lymphomas, etc., since the immune system should also be affected by any TGF-beta inhibition that occurs.

You have to also remember that India's medical system is behind ours a bit and their population is massive and localized to particular areas, so once they finally did start reporting, there was a lot to report. It's sort of like how cancer incidences in the U.S. jumped once everyone started reporting it to the appropriate agencies.

We also have to take into consideration that Turmeric really seems to be one of those crazy "wonder herbs". It heals acne scars, treats psoriasis, calms the digestive tract and relieves inflammatory bowel disease, and is quite capable of TGF-beta inhibition while removing fibrosis and decreasing the immune response.

As for the apple cidar vinegar, I wasn't really aware of its poly content. It seems like all unpasteurized juices (of whatever you might call them) from apples seems to have what I'm looking for, but you again make a good point. I'll have to look into it. All I know is that apple cidar vinegar stinks like you wouldn't believe, but it leaves your hair and scalp feeling incredible.

Lastly, I don't know much about getting the polyphenols out of the apples. I don't even know if they survive boiling. That's something else that I would like to find out.

You have an excellent idea for a topical there. If I knew how to make topicals, I'd be doing it.
 

michael barry

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Doctor,

.........on my topical idea. I was looking at compounds that inhibited IGF-beta 1, protien kinease C, and TNF-one.

Apple B2 proanthocyandin inhibits PKC. By the way, apple cider vinegar smells when you put it on, but your scalp absorbs it. You cant smell it later on.


Barley extract has been shown to grow hair on mice at a pubmed link Ive posted a few various places. It worked in vitro on epilitheal cells. The scientists checked and found that TGF beta 1 was what the barley B-3 proanthocyandins were suppressing. It worked in mice to grow hair. Thats in vivo. 140 percent was the increased growth if I remember correctly.

I thought topical grape seed extract counteracted TNF alpha. I might have to recheck...............here is one source for TNF alpha here:

TNF-a down regulation- Curcumin, Ginkgo Biloba Extract, Stinging Nettle Extract, Green Tea Extract, Fish Oil, Borage Oil, Perilla Oil, and Topical Perilla leaf extract

Thats from male pattern baldness-research.org. I'd choose topical borage oil or topical curcumin or topical ginko biloba (a weak alpha five inhibitor) rather than topical green tea.
Green tea inhibits angiogeneisis. Thats why its a good cancer fighting compound. But you WANT angiogenesis with hair.


Riboflavin is a alpha five inhibitor also that would be easy to make.


I remember reading a recipe by Waseda on preparing topical grape seed proanthocyanidins and it was to get water, alcohol, and grape seed extract and boil. I dont think the oligomers would degenerate at 120-130 degrees.




Doctor,

If a man could make a topical that inhibited the three negative growth factors, perhaps with a tad of topical dht inhibition to be used before the shower/during the shower, with a little prox-n at night, he'd probably keep his hair for ages. Or at least unitl cloning comes out (Aderans is now recruiting for phase one tests here in America and phase two is underway in England as we speak-------I really expect this in less than ten years now, and possibly five somewhere on the earth).

I know you dont want to screw with your internal hormonal profile, and I dont disagree with that. Even though Ive never been bothered by finasteride, I'd rather handle this topically if I could.


The old beer and eggs shampoo rememdy thats been around for hundreds of years perhaps wasn't such a bad idea. I had found one website that had a recipe for this that was simple.........boil beer until it loses about a quarter of its volume (most of the water and alcohol) and mix it with any old cheapie shampoo. Suds up and leave in for a few minutes. The barley and hops proanthocyanidns should penetrate. Apple cider vinegar, grape pulp (native american indians) barley have all been used for ages for hair. We didnt stop using this stuff unitl scientists told us it was stupid and testosterone caused baldness back early last century. Maybe we should have trusted Grandma and not listened to them for a while. I would STRONGLY imagine that apple cider vinegar, barley malt, and grape seed pulp applied to the head with aloe vera juice and an anti-inflammatory essential oil like thyme or rosemary would have outperformed minoxidil over a long period of time because they counteract alot more of the bad stuff happening in baldness than minoxidil does.


Ive spoken half jokingly about the barley malt and beta sitosterol content in Bourbon and wondered aloud if Jack Daniels to the head could slow baldness a great deal. Ive tested (successfully to my own curiousity) whether the beta sis in pine oil could slow body hair growth, thus proving the beta sis therein really had a anti-androgenic effect (it did). I suspended that little experiment because Im satisfied with the result. Im currently putting latanaprost on one forearm and have started putting a little bourbon on one cheek. I'd like to see that if in a few weeks the untreated cheek grows beard stubble faster after a shave at a few days (thus showing me that there is enough beta sis in boubon to inhibit androgenic binding there). Im going to try to apply twice a day.



Thats about all the natural substances I can really think of that might help with hair. There is a particular melon native to france that has a high amount of superoxide dismutase naturally. Ive done a little pubmed research on antigens that get suppressed by blueberries. It does ALOT. Blueberries are in alot of folk remedies for hair. The anthocyandins therein might be the most powerful anti-oxidants known to man. Blueberries, pomegranates, and cranberries are considered "superfoods". All three help with BPH. There are proanthocyandins in cranberries.

Doctor, I feel we might have "cures" for baldness in some plants, but just dont know it yet. However, Im still just hoping for cloning so I can forget about this sh*t once and for all to be honest.


If you ever try a topical....................I'd still suggest prox-N from LifeExtension.org. Proctor is a smart guy and baldness is all he studies. I think his product is the best non-hormonal treatment for this stuff going personally. Dutasteride is probably the best overall, but even I didn't feel like myself on that.
 

melbwest

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i can find prox-n but it is on sites that promote every single thing from advecia to provillus...

also, MBarry is there likely to be a shed period on prox-n?
 

michael barry

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I didnt experience a shed.


It targets alot of aspects of the male pattern baldness process.

A regimine that consisted of say..........finas, spironolactone, prox-n........should keep a guy "in hair" or at least hold on to what he has for a long while. There should be a cloning procedure ready before such a man would start losing more. You young'un's are lucky. We were all told there was nothing that could be done about baldness in the late eighties and that minoxidil was a fluke discovery and no one knew how it helped and it was only good for bald spots in the back.


Prox-N attempts to fight the "late" happenings in the male pattern baldness process.

First there is androgenic transcription of DHT and T (to a lesser degree).
Then there is the dermal papilla cells releasing growth inhibitors to the rest of the follicle such ast TGF-beta 1, TNF-alpha, and PKC. (we might be able to counteract these to some degree with curcumin, topical apple proanthocyanidns, topical barley proanthocyandins, grape seed extract).

Thirdly there is an immuno response to the slower growing follicle. This "may' be due to the secretion of TGF-beta 1 by the DP cells since its associated as a negative growth factor in autoimmune conditions in other parts of the body. But then again maybe not.
Anyway.............the marker cells from the immune system gather round the follicle and inflammatory cytokines sort of attack the follicle. Excessive sebum seems to get produced as the follicle gets smaller and isnt taking up as much sebum. The sebum becomes an environment conductive for micro-organisms setting up shop. Its been postulated that the immune system may also see these tiny critters as problematic and attack them also. Thats all speculative however. MSM will help with excessive sebum (and quite frankly the sulfer in onion juice topically might help there also). Anyway, the immuno attack can be best couteracted or its damage repaired with peptides that trick the skin into remodelling itself by giving off signals to do so. They are profoundly powerful anti-inflammatories. The immune system sends superoxides at the follicle also. There are extra superoxide dismutases in prox-n. Proctor doenst simply rely on the SOD-activity of the peptides to counteract these.


If I had to guess a good, SAFE way (I think dutasteride for decades might really have a bad effect) to combat baldness it would be:

propecia or reviogen

apple proantho's, barley proanthos, grape seed proanthos, ginko biloba topically before shower----leave in for a good 10 minutes while you bathe.

spironolactone 2X a day applied with prox-n at night


other internals would be MSM, a good multivitamin, arginine, grape seed extract, and a healthy diet. -----------should hold onto what you have until cure comes unless your propensity to bald is absolutely overwhelming.


Id use nizoral a couple of times a week.
 

melbwest

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thanks MB.

very thoughful posts as usual

im going to go with (as i said in another post)

revivogen/crinagen (might try finasteride again)

spironolactone

prox n

msm

green tea
 
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