Is Tricomin or finasteride necessary when using Xandrox and spironolactone?

[dead]

Bryan's right. From all my reading, I have found NO EVIDENCE that azelaic acid does much. I have looked and looked and looked.... found NOTHING.

Devils avacado (sic) mode: ON

Prehaps there is no evidence, but this does not negate its efficacy, it simply means that if it does work to inhibit DHT we have no data to back it up. There was no 'evidence' as to finasterides efficacy in the 1930's but this did not negate it efficacy, I know this is desperately cluthing at straws but you haven't just shelled out $200 on Xandrox ! :freaked: LOL!!

Devils avacado (sic) mode: OFF

One other point, if Dr Lee says spironolactone is a better inhibitor of DHT than azelaic acid then it must be pretty good stuff because he claims azelaic acid inhibits 100% of DHT where applied !!! So spironolactone must do something like 150% of DHT.

Still I am sticking with the Xandrox as azelaic acid is needed to keep 15 minoxidil in solution (I believe ??) and it sounds good..aazzee lay ak acid.

 

[Old Baldy]

Bryan's right. From all my reading, I have found NO EVIDENCE that azelaic acid does much. I have looked and looked and looked.... found NOTHING.

Devils avacado (sic) mode: ON

Prehaps there is no evidence, but this does not negate its efficacy, it simply means that if it does work to inhibit DHT we have no data to back it up. There was no 'evidence' as to finasterides efficacy in the 1930's but this did not negate it efficacy, I know this is desperately cluthing at straws but you haven't just shelled out $200 on Xandrox ! :freaked: LOL!!

Devils avacado (sic) mode: OFF

One other point, if Dr Lee says spironolactone is a better inhibitor of DHT than azelaic acid then it must be pretty good stuff because he claims azelaic acid inhibits 100% of DHT where applied !!! So spironolactone must do something like 150% of DHT.

Still I am sticking with the Xandrox as azelaic acid is needed to keep 15 minoxidil in solution (I believe ??) and it sounds good..aazzee lay ak acid.

I understand Branco. He's the doctor, I'm a layman. Just wish I could find some evidence on azelaic acid other than "statements".

 

[dead]

I understand Branco. He's the doctor, I'm a layman. Just wish I could find some evidence on azelaic acid other than "statements".

your message is cryptic ?

prehaps empirical data would do the trick (starts to phone Dr Lee's relatives)

 

[The Gardener]

[quote="The Gardener":2436e]Ty, the spironolactone works just fine with the Xandrox. In Lee's xandrox faq, he answers a question about this and says that spironolactone is compatible with it. Go with the 5%, in the cream. It's just the thing for the application area you are contemplating.

Mr G

Why is there a 2% formula and 5% formula available ? presumably there are issues with the strength of 5% ???

Don't mean to jump in for Gardener but I think the 2 percent is a liquid product and, I know, the 5 percent is a cream product. I assume it has to do with solubility.

I agree with Gardener, the 5 percent is a good product and is cosmetically acceptable to boot. (The amount you get in each jar should last a long time.)[/quote:2436e]

Right on, Old Baldy. Different vehicles designed for application on different balding types. 2% liquid is better for application on vegetated areas, i.e. diffuse thinners. 5% better for already bald areas, or along the hairline, upper temples, etc.

Ty, for the temple area you are referring to, I suggest the 5% cream. The 5% doesn't have the odor issues that can happen on occasion with the 2%.

 

[Cornholio]

He's the doctor, I'm a layman. Just wish I could find some evidence on azelaic acid other than "statements".

Background: Azelaic acid (pronounced az-uh-LAY-ic) is a simple molecule ( HOOC(CH2)7COOH, CAS Number 123-99-9, also known as 1,9-Nonanedioic acid) that is found in some whole grains and in trace amounts in human bodies. Although it is an acid, it is an extremely weak acid - much weaker than vinegar. It's current use in medicine is in Azelex or Skinoren, which is a cream base containing azelaic acid as 20% of its weight. Azelex is available by prescription in the USA and is used in the treatment of acne. Skinoren is available outside USA.

Azelaic acid may be useful as a hair growth stimulant. A research report by Stamatiadis in 1988 suggested that azelaic acid (and combinations of it and zinc ion and vitamin B6) was a strong type I 5-alpha reductase (5-AR) inhibitor. The enzyme 5-AR (both types I and II) convert testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT). DHT has been shown to contribute to male prostate enlargement (benign prostatic hyperplasia, BPH) and to damage hair follicles.

Abstract of Stamatiadis' 1988 study:

Br J Dermatol 1988 Nov;119(5):627-632 Inhibition of 5 alpha-reductase activity in human skin by zinc and azelaic acid.

Stamatiadis D, Bulteau-Portois MC, Mowszowicz I

Laboratoire de Biochimie B, Hopital Necker-Enfants-Malades, Paris, France.

The effects of zinc sulphate and azelaic acid on 5 alpha-reductase activity in human skin were studied using an in vitro assay with 1,2[3H]-testosterone as substrate. When added at concentrations of 3 or 9 mmol/l, zinc was a potent inhibitor of 5 alpha-reductase activity. At high concentrations, zinc could completely inhibit the enzyme activity. Azelaic acid was also a potent inhibitor of 5 alpha-reductase; inhibition was detectable at concentrations as low as 0.2 mmol/l and was complete at 3 mmol/l. An additive effect of the two inhibitors was observed. Vitamin B6 potentiated the inhibitory effect of zinc, but not of azelaic acid, suggesting that two different mechanisms are involved. When the three substances were added together at very low concentrations which had been shown to be ineffective alone, 90% inhibition of 5 alpha-reductase activity was obtained. If this inhibition is confirmed in vivo, zinc sulphate combined with azelaic acid could be an effective agent in the treatment of androgen related pathology of human skin.

PMID: 3207614, UI: 89087983


This is the ONLY published study... Dr Lee adds assurance that his Xanadrox is higher enough in concentration that azelaic acid should be carried into the scalp, and that in his patients it seems to work when minoxidil does not. (And if he splits the 15$/bottle extra with me Ill sign a letter supporting that view). I seriously doubt he actually did the needed 1year followup with hair counts study needed to prove this. Why would he? It would only cost him and potentially hurt his sales if negative.

 

[Bryan]

This is the ONLY published study...

Yes, and there's NO in vivo study at all. Everyone's familiar by now with the Stamatiadis in vitro study.

Dr Lee adds assurance that his Xanadrox is higher enough in concentration that azelaic acid should be carried into the scalp, and that in his patients it seems to work when minoxidil does not. I seriously doubt he actually did the needed 1year followup with hair counts study needed to prove this.

"Seriously doubt"??? Cornholio, I guarantee you that Dr. Lee has NEVER done haircounts of any kind on Xandrox! :wink:

Bryan

 

[Old Baldy]

This is the ONLY published study...

Yes, and there's NO in vivo study at all. Everyone's familiar by now with the Stamatiadis in vitro study.

Dr Lee adds assurance that his Xanadrox is higher enough in concentration that azelaic acid should be carried into the scalp, and that in his patients it seems to work when minoxidil does not. I seriously doubt he actually did the needed 1year followup with hair counts study needed to prove this.

"Seriously doubt"??? Cornholio, I guarantee you that Dr. Lee has NEVER done haircounts of any kind on Xandrox! :wink:

Bryan

Yes Corn, the problem is there isn't any in vivo evidence that it works. It's been around long enough for there to be some in vivo info. If it was cheap to get, I'd put some in a homemade topical but it's pretty expensive from what I've seen.

 

[Baller]

Hey guys,

so I've been using xandrox 15% for four weeks and xandrox 5% and spironolactone for only the last week. Let me tell you, I have gotten better results in this short period of time than at any point in my hairloss fighting career. I attribute this mainly to xandrox 15% because spironolactone I have been only been using for the past week and xandrox 15% gave me results even prior to using the spironolactone. Specifically, my temples have been darkening in and there are a couple of vellous hairs that sprouted up even at my original hairline (when I was 19).

Now, there is some debate about whether the azelaic acid works, but for me xandrox 15% works. Maybe it's the minoxidil and the azelaic acid doesn't matter, but it's helping. This is after using minoxidil 5%, kirkland brand for 2 years and not getting any response for hair regrowth even with nizoral and finasteride. The BIG three for two years may have stunted some hairloss but did nothing to regrow.

I've been on this forum and looked at all the posts long enough to hear about various methods and only try the proven ones. Dr. Lee's xandrox has been working for me, so I figure why not keep trusting him.