Is this true about minoxidil

[Bryan]

I'm sorry but I dont believe that chart. I know for a fact that Finasteride works better than minoxdil.

What in the Sam Hell are you talking about?? Do you not see in Tynan's graph that the line for finasteride is ABOVE the line for minoxidil toward the end of the graph (around the 5-year point or so)?? That IS an acknowledgement of the fact that finasteride eventually overtakes minoxidil in effectiveness, my friend! The evidence seems to show that minoxidil is better in the short-term (at least in a small measured test-area like a baldspot), but because minoxidil doesn't really interfere with the fundamental balding process, finasteride eventually overtakes it after a period of time.

I thought everyone was on the same page about that, but like the old saying goes, there's always that 10% that doesn't get the word! :wink:

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

I think this is wrong. Minoxidil definately looses effectiveness after some time.

I don't know of any evidence to suggest that. As far as I can tell, minoxidil keeps working and working as long as you use it. It's your SCALP which continues to decline in health as the years go by, making it only APPEAR to be the minoxidil which is failing.

Bryan

 

[The Gardener]

I think this 'Minoxidil stops working after two years' phrase is the most widely misconstrued term on this board. When we say this, I don't think we are all on the same page, so to speak.

We are drawing conclusions from this statement because I think we have different definitions of what it is for Minoxidil to be 'working'.

From my understanding, if minoxidil works for you, it will ALWAYS work for you as long as you are using it. HOWEVER, it won't always regrow hair. In other words, after 'two years' or 'three years', any hair follicles that have withstood the daily minoxidil bombardment and have not switched from vellous to terminal status will NEVER switch to terminal status. Thus, the minoxidil only REGROWS hair for two to three years... but it still can continue to, quote un-quote, 'WORK' as it still keeps minoxidil-induced growth in anagen phase.

It may stop regrowing hair at year 2, or 3 or whatever depending on your own condition, but it continues to hold that hair in place for far longer than that. Additionally, even though hair count does not go up, minoxidil can continue to improve the thickness of existing but thinning hairs too. The 2-3 year 'end point' only applies to its ability to increase terminal haircount. Now, the scalp can deteriorate and make you lose some of these gains over time... Doctor Lee says with good scalp health and continued minoxidil use, he has maintained his Minoxidil regrowth for 14 years. I'm not sure if I totally buy that... but I suppose if I had a fricking Minoxidil factory in the room behind my office and got the 15% sh*t for free, that might very well be the case for me too.

 

[Guest]

but I suppose if I had a fricking Minoxidil factory in the room behind my office and got the 15% sh*t for free, that might very well be the case for me too.

 

[Bismarck]

I think this is wrong. Minoxidil definately looses effectiveness after some time.

I don't know of any evidence to suggest that. As far as I can tell, minoxidil keeps working and working as long as you use it. It's your SCALP which continues to decline in health as the years go by, making it only APPEAR to be the minoxidil which is failing.

Bryan

To tell how long minoxidil works one have to say *how* it works at all. See article in Exp. section.

 

[The Gardener]

No, not necessarily. Although we don't know exactly why minoxidil does what it does, it is possible to determine how long it works by observing people who have been on it for years in clinical studies.

I know that I am a big proponent of Minoxidil here on these boards, but this is not because I am in any way involved or have a bias towards particular treatments over another. I am an avid proponent of Minoxidil because, personally speaking, it works! At least for me, and for the majority of people who use it to promote regrowth and enhance the vitality of previously thinning hair. Minoxidil has done wonders for me.

 

[Bismarck]

No doubt that minoxidil is a potent growth stimulator. But I've heard so many times that people start to loose regrown hairs after 2 years of minoxidil treatment. So my question is: Why can minoxidil turn vellus into terminal at the beginning of the treatment but is unable to stop male pattern baldness after 2 years in the regrown area?

bis

 

[ACT10Npack]

I'm sorry but minoxidil does not grow more in 2 years then propecia does. minoxidil only grow peach fuze hair while propecia grows real hair. Although some may very the chart is false is every way. First off, on propecia.com they so a decrease after the first year at you show a decrease after the 2nd year. Second, in average minoxidil for 1 to 2 years then slowly stop working after year 3 to 4. There has not been any study done with minoxidil and finasteride.

 

[The Gardener]

But I've heard so many times that people start to loose regrown hairs after 2 years of minoxidil treatment.

The 'minoxidil tolerance' theory is false. You DO start to lose hairs, but not necessarily at the same rate as someone who were not on minoxidil. The slope is not necessarily as steep. To quote Dr Lee:

There are numerous misconceptions about minoxidil and developing a 'tolerance' to it. Minoxidil will help recruit atrophic follicles grow thicker hair again for a minimum of two to three years. Thereafter, topical minoxidil solutions normally keep hair follicles in the anagen phase. There are numerous cases in which minoxidil solutions continue to regrow hair long after the two to three year period. Dr. Lee, for example, has slowly continued to regrow hair since starting to use minoxidil solutions more than 14 years ago.

Unfortunately because many patients do not see significant 'improvement' after a few years, they assume the minoxidil has caused a tolerance and is no longer 'working' for them. If these patients are convinced to stop minoxidil therapy, all the new hair they have regrown will be shed within 3-4 months.

The point is that the combination of mechanisms that cause one to lose his hair WITHOUT minoxidil are different that the mechanisms that cause one to lose his hair while ON minoxidil, but past the 2-3 year mark.

 

[Bryan]

No, not necessarily. Although we don't know exactly why minoxidil does what it does, it is possible to determine how long it works by observing people who have been on it for years in clinical studies.

Yes, provided that there's also a matching long-term placebo group, to use for comparison! :wink:

Bryan

 

[The Gardener]

Good point, Bryan. We really need a good long term study on minoxidil to quantify this.

 

[Bryan]

No doubt that minoxidil is a potent growth stimulator. But I've heard so many times that people start to loose regrown hairs after 2 years of minoxidil treatment. So my question is: Why can minoxidil turn vellus into terminal at the beginning of the treatment but is unable to stop male pattern baldness after 2 years in the regrown area?

Because minoxidil doesn't interfere with the fundamental balding process! It doesn't have any significant antiandrogenic properties. It simply provides an "offset" of growth stimulation, but balding continues at its normal rate...

Bryan

 

[Bismarck]

No doubt that minoxidil is a potent growth stimulator. But I've heard so many times that people start to loose regrown hairs after 2 years of minoxidil treatment. So my question is: Why can minoxidil turn vellus into terminal at the beginning of the treatment but is unable to stop male pattern baldness after 2 years in the regrown area?

Because minoxidil doesn't interfere with the fundamental balding process! It doesn't have any significant antiandrogenic properties. It simply provides an "offset" of growth stimulation, but balding continues at its normal rate...

Bryan

This doesn't answer my question except the fundamental balding process always takes place after 2 years of minoxidil treatment.

 

[Bryan]

I'm sorry but minoxidil does not grow more in 2 years then propecia does.

Really? What are you basing that statement on? I based what _I_ said on numerous minoxidil and finasteride studies. I've been quoting the numbers from those studies for YEARS on these hairloss sites.

minoxidil only grow peach fuze hair while propecia grows real hair.

That's a ridiculous sweeping generality.

Although some may very the chart is false is every way. First off, on propecia.com they so a decrease after the first year at you show a decrease after the 2nd year. Second, in average minoxidil for 1 to 2 years then slowly stop working after year 3 to 4.

I'm not sure what any of that means. Your wording is rather confusing.

I think Tynan's chart is pretty darned accurate. I think it's pretty-well supported by the studies. The actual time-durations he has on there (in years) may not be right on the mark, but the lines themselves appear to me to be topologically correct (I hope you understand what I mean by that).

There has not been any study done with minoxidil and finasteride.

Yes there have been such studies, in both humans and stumptailed macaques. I've posted about them in the past.

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

This doesn't answer my question except the fundamental balding process always takes place after 2 years of minoxidil treatment.

I don't understand your point.

 

[Bismarck]

This doesn't answer my question except the fundamental balding process always takes place after 2 years of minoxidil treatment.

I don't understand your point.

I will clarify some points. First, I didn't say that mionox stops working but I mentioned the fact that minoxidil produces quite good regrowth in the first year which is often graudually lost after the second year mark. Bryan, you' ve posted the graphs showing that regrowth peak.
I don't think the loss of these regrown hairs can just be explained with the progress of male pattern baldness. My conclusion is that there is building up some kind of "tolerance" to minoxidil. And I don't see how an "aging scalp" contributes to the effectiveness of minoxidil.

bis

 

[Bryan]

I will clarify some points. First, I didn't say that mionox stops working but I mentioned the fact that minoxidil produces quite good regrowth in the first year which is often graudually lost after the second year mark. Bryan, you' ve posted the graphs showing that regrowth peak.
I don't think the loss of these regrown hairs can just be explained with the progress of male pattern baldness.

Why not? If the downward slope of lost hairs is the same in minoxidil users as it is in placebo users, what do you think is wrong with the interpretation that minoxidil is simply providing an "offset" of extra growth?

And I don't see how an "aging scalp" contributes to the effectiveness of minoxidil.

When I said "ageing scalp", that was basically just another way of referring to the balding process itself.

Bryan

 

[Bismarck]

I will clarify some points. First, I didn't say that mionox stops working but I mentioned the fact that minoxidil produces quite good regrowth in the first year which is often graudually lost after the second year mark. Bryan, you' ve posted the graphs showing that regrowth peak.
I don't think the loss of these regrown hairs can just be explained with the progress of male pattern baldness.

Why not? If the downward slope of lost hairs is the same in minoxidil users as it is in placebo users, what do you think is wrong with the interpretation that minoxidil is simply providing an "offset" of extra growth?
Bryan

Are you sure the "downward slope of lost hairs" is the same in both groups ?

 

[Bryan]

That's what Vera Price said. She said it was "nearly the same".

 

[Buffboy]

But using Proxiphen is more than just an offset regrowth right? I mean in addition to the growth, it should stop further loss?