Is Low Test Just As Bad As High Test For Hair Loss?

[Feelsbadman]

I've had low test for a few months now and my hair has gotten thinner
This doesn't make sense as high test = more dht??

however i read somewhee that if you have low test than your DHT will up regulate so this will be bad for hair? is this true?

 

[Bigbone]

I can't remember the study, but I've seen one that came to the conclusion that men with low T often had high DHT and E-levels. I'm starting to believe that DHT after puberty only acts as a counter estrogen when the body can only manage a certain amount of T, that's just my guess. Have you done a full test?

 

[Ollie]

No. A % of test is typically converted to DHT. Having lower test (like when you get older) should also mean equally declining DHT levels. Although i doubt that changing within in normal range will have a huge effect on your hair. Instead its the sensitivity of the receptor itself along with the countless other mechanisms at play.

What i could envisage though that if your T has dropped a fair amount then you will also be suffering from a potential decrease in E..which could explain the worsening of hair.

 

[Feelsbadman.jpg]

I've had low test for a few months now and my hair has gotten thinner
This doesn't make sense as high test = more dht??

however i read somewhee that if you have low test than your DHT will up regulate so this will be bad for hair? is this true?

Testosterone can compete with DHT for receptor expression and testosterone is way less androgenic. Having lower testosterone will not necessarily lower DHT as this is dependent more on the amount of 5AR enzyme that you have.

To achieve maximal DHT production (the maximum amount you can produce through 5AR) does not require high testosterone. Think why older men have more body facial hair than younger despite lower T.

For example, to max out DHT production for the amount of 5AR you have, say you need 200 ng/dl of testosterone with the normal range for adults being 200-1100 ng/dl. If your T was 800 ng/dl, you would have the same amount of DHT being produced as if you had 200 ng/dl due to the conversion being limited by the amount of available 5AR. However, w/ higher T, the DHT is less active as less of it binds to receptors. It has to compete w/ Testosterone.

So lower testosterone won't lower DHT levels (unless you get really low, like castration levels) but it can make the DHT you normally produce more active. In other words, high T can blunt the effects of DHT (DHT is highly androgenic where as Testosterone is more anabolic) somewhat.

Furthermore, there are actually two types of androgen receptors (A and B, just like estrogen receptors).

"Two isoforms of the androgen receptor (A and B) have been identified." From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_receptor.

My hypothesis is that these have different effects, anabolic and androgenic. With estrogen receptors, they up regulate when they are stimulated. SERMs (Selective estrogen receptor modulators) can stimulate only estrogen receptor B and cause an increase in estrogen receptor b expression which is genrally attributed to good effects of estrogen (smooth skin) while estrogen receptor A is associated w/ negative (breast cancer).

Finasteride has been shown to up regulate androgen receptors and yet it still grows hair. http://ehrs.org/conferenceabstracts/2000marburg/guestlectures/s04-sawaya.htm

When you take finasteride, you remove the primary androgenic stimulus for androgen receptors. This allows testosterone to act more anabolically which would cause an upregulation in the androgen receptor type responsible for anabolic effects and a down regulation in the receptor type responsible for androgenic effects.

So in conclusion, when you have low T, you still have DHT and this DHT is more active due to less Testosterone binding. The more DHT that binds, the more upregulation occurs for androgenic receptor expression. It is a feed forward mechanism.

 

[Feelsbadman]

Testosterone can compete with DHT for receptor expression and testosterone is way less androgenic. Having lower testosterone will not necessarily lower DHT as this is dependent more on the amount of 5AR enzyme that you have.

To achieve maximal DHT production (the maximum amount you can produce through 5AR) does not require high testosterone. Think why older men have more body facial hair than younger despite lower T.

For example, to max out DHT production for the amount of 5AR you have, say you need 200 ng/dl of testosterone with the normal range for adults being 200-1100 ng/dl. If your T was 800 ng/dl, you would have the same amount of DHT being produced as if you had 200 ng/dl due to the conversion being limited by the amount of available 5AR. However, w/ higher T, the DHT is less active as less of it binds to receptors. It has to compete w/ Testosterone.

So lower testosterone won't lower DHT levels (unless you get really low, like castration levels) but it can make the DHT you normally produce more active. In other words, high T can blunt the effects of DHT (DHT is highly androgenic where as Testosterone is more anabolic) somewhat.

Furthermore, there are actually two types of androgen receptors (A and B, just like estrogen receptors).

"Two isoforms of the androgen receptor (A and B) have been identified." From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_receptor.

My hypothesis is that these have different effects, anabolic and androgenic. With estrogen receptors, they up regulate when they are stimulated. SERMs (Selective estrogen receptor modulators) can stimulate only estrogen receptor B and cause an increase in estrogen receptor b expression which is genrally attributed to good effects of estrogen (smooth skin) while estrogen receptor A is associated w/ negative (breast cancer).

Finasteride has been shown to up regulate androgen receptors and yet it still grows hair. http://ehrs.org/conferenceabstracts/2000marburg/guestlectures/s04-sawaya.htm

When you take finasteride, you remove the primary androgenic stimulus for androgen receptors. This allows testosterone to act more anabolically which would cause an upregulation in the androgen receptor type responsible for anabolic effects and a down regulation in the receptor type responsible for androgenic effects.

So in conclusion, when you have low T, you still have DHT and this DHT is more active due to less Testosterone binding. The more DHT that binds, the more upregulation occurs for androgenic receptor expression. It is a feed forward mechanism.

Thanks for this

do you know if its ok to take finasteride if you have low T?

 

[Mandar kumthekar]

The jigsaw puzzle of hairloss could have trillion small pieces thrown in bushy jungle. To arrange them and solve the puzzle has zillion in one chance.

 

[Feelsbadman.jpg]

Thanks for this

do you know if its ok to take finasteride if you have low T?

Well I'm not going to dole out medical advice, but if anything, I believe finasteride should help you increase your T as this has been my experience and what various studies have also shown. It has benefited me.

DHT limits testosterone production. Your body has a set value for the amount of sex steroids it wants in your body. The hypothalamus part of your brain regulates this. So the more DHT you have, your brain thinks you have plenty of sex steroids and does not send the message to your testes to produce as much T.

This is why if you lower DHT and or Estradiol (most potent androgen and estrogen), T increases. It's not just because less is coverting, it's also because your brain senses less sex steroids circulating and, in response, the hypothalamus releases Gonadotrophin-releasing hormone which binds to the pituitary gland which then releases luteinising hormone which in turn cause the testes to produce more T. It's a feed back mechanism through the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis.

So finasteride will wipe out roughly 70% of DHT which will free up a lot of "room" for more T production.

The other thing you need to address if you have low T is estrogen. Low Estradiol and DHT will lead to high T and maintaining high T means DHT and Estradiol remain low. I would not recommend taking aromatase inhibitors as it most likely not necessary. Unless you have a lot of body fat, you probably don't have a problem with having too much aromatase enzyme. I would start with optimizing thyroid health.

Thyroid hormones actually detox and break down the more potent estrogen into weaker ones which allows for more T production. Selenium, iodine, magnesium, and vitamin C will help your thyroid function correctly which in turn helps your body effectively clear out any excess estrogen.

Also, bone density plays a role in estrogen formation the male body. Vitamin D3, vitamin k2, and magnesium along with dietary calcium will ensure you have dense bones. Vitamin k2 can reduce estrogen formation https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15763078

This may be why estrogen increases in older males, body is trying to maintain bone density. If bone density is well maintained, less estrogen is needed.

Lastly, to minimize harmful estrogens, sort out your fatty acid ratios. eat less omega 6 and more omega 3 and saturated fat. High omega 6 intake increases inflammation partly by influencing the way estrogens are metabolized.