Interesting documented reports of gynecomastia

joseph49853

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I wanted to post this to the "Scare stories or for real!?" thread, but decided to make a new topic instead. Just in case everyone in the 'Dealing with Side Effects' forum hasn't seen these. I believe we all should be afforded the right to make informed decisions about our own health... naysayers, money-makers, apologists, and those in denial be damned.


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Cytologic Atypia in a 53-Year-Old Man With Finasteride-Induced Gynecomastia

This is a documented case of a physician himself taking finasteride for hairloss and then developing, not only gynecomastia, but cytologic atypia, as determined by a biopsy. Bascially 'cytologic atypia" is a benign breast disease, which is associated with an increased risk of future breast cancer."The patient was a 53-year-old physician treated for alopecia with the drug finasteride (1 mg per day). After 10 weeks of therapy, he developed a 3-cm-diameter mass in the right breast, which was clinically believed to be gynecomastia. A fine-needle aspiration biopsy was performed using a 22-gauge needle and a 10-mL syringe; the aspirated material was placed into 0.9% sodium chloride solution."

The most interesting and revealing passages include, "Gynecomastia is a known complication of a variety of conditions characterized by hormonal imbalance. Several drugs, including chemotherapeutic agents used to treat prostate and other cancers, have been associated with gynecomastia.....Typically, the gynecomastia resolves after the drug is discontinued. Rarely, ductal or lobular carcinomas of the male breast have been documented to arise in these cases. The cytology of these cancers is similar to that seen in females....We believe this case report also represents the first description of the cytologic changes associated with finasteride therapy....The Food and Drug Administration and case reports in the literature have documented an association between finasteride and gynecomastia.... While male breast carcinoma is exceedingly unusual, we found 2 documented instances of adenocarcinoma, including a lobular carcinoma, arising in association with finasteride therapy."

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Case report: finasteride-induced gynecomastia in a 62-year-old man

The most revealing passages, "there were no pathologic conditions affecting other organs or pharmacologic treatments that could be responsible for gynecomastia.....It is possible that gynecomastia was caused by alterations of estrogen/androgen ratio because of a finasteride-induced decrease in circulating dihydrotestosterone levels....the authors confirm finasteride antiandrogenic activity and recommend a close follow-up of long-term treatments with finasteride to find out other possible side effects."

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Male Breast Cancer During Finasteride Therapy

This is a 2004 report in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute. A clinical study based on men taking 5mg of finasteride (Proscar) to treat benign prostate hyperplasia (BPH.)

"Conditions that result in relative estrogen excess or lack of androgen are associated with an increased risk of breast cancer in both women and men. An example of increased rates of male breast cancer associated with increased estrogen-to-testosterone ratios can be seen in men with Klinefelter's syndrome, who are 50 times more likely to develop breast cancer than their normal counterparts. This ratio may be affected by finasteride (Proscar), which has been widely marketed and used to treat benign prostate hyperplasia (BPH).....we strongly recommend that the FDA require that information about the possible association between male breast cancer and Proscar be clearly stated in the manufacturer's patient information leaflet for prescriptions and in its advertisements."
 

Harie

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Sounds about right to me. finasteride blocks the conversion of test into DHT, so the only other pathway it has is estrogen. Plus, finasteride increases test levels, which increases estrogen levels to keep balance. High estrogen can cause breast cancer and gives people gyno...If they're succeptable to either.

Which is why I totally agree with those that believe you should take finasteride with an AI like Adex, Aromasin, AIFM etc. Blocking both conversion pathways "should' allow your test to remain test.

With that said - gyno and breast cancer reports from finasteride/dutasteride are few and far between.
 

joseph49853

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Harie said:
Sounds about right to me. finasteride blocks the conversion of test into DHT, so the only other pathway it has is estrogen. Plus, finasteride increases test levels, which increases estrogen levels to keep balance. High estrogen can cause breast cancer and gives people gyno...If they're succeptable to either.

Which is why I totally agree with those that believe you should take finasteride with an AI like Adex, Aromasin, AIFM etc. Blocking both conversion pathways "should' allow your test to remain test.

With that said - gyno and breast cancer reports from finasteride/dutasteride are few and far between.

I have no general problem with this statement. Change it to "reported cases of gyno from finasteride/dutasteride are few and far between" and I'm even further in agreement. I know it took me a long time to admit there was a problem. And when something like this hits you, suddenly the percentages don't matter.

I'm also sure there will be just as many people willing to play those percentages, risk their own body chemistry, and chase one drug with another. But there's also just no way of knowing the true long term real-world risks of any drug based on limited clinical studies. Meet me back here in another fifty years time. I remember reading about all those doctors who thought early hormone replacement therapy for women suffering from menopause was such a neat idea, but it wasn't a specialized enough field to cater to individual patents, and was based mostly on incomplete information. A one size fits all type therapy, and lots of women ended up suffering maladies much later in their lives, some even life-threatening.

Anyway, the information is here in case anyone wants to take a more serious look.
 

Harie

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joseph49853 said:
I have no general problem with this statement. Change it to "reported cases of gyno from finasteride/dutasteride are few and far between" and I'm even further in agreement. I know it took me a long time to admit there was a problem. And when something like this hits you, suddenly the percentages don't matter.

I think that people that have any side effects from a drug are on the internet searching and complaining. I know that if I got gyno from taking something, I'd find people to ask about it...And online is the best resource we've got.

I agree that we don't know a lot about a lot. But we're learning more every day. And finasteride has been around for 10+ years, and is probably one of the most studied drugs there is besides maybe asprin etc. And there are side effects for every drug and natural substance. Heck - you can die from taking Asprin...But it's safe for millions and millions for every 1 that has bad sides.

And AI's have been out for quite some time and are treatments for breast cancer. Pretty hard to get breast cancer when you're using a breast cancer treatment. :)

Everyone should be informed of the possible risks and decide for themselves though.
 

joseph49853

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Like I said, the one-size-fits-all treatment needs to go into the stone ages, where it belongs. We need to decide on optimal levels, and start testing for them -- and other factors -- and base treatments correspondingly. A good doctor currently won't even prescribe simple vitamin D (in clinical situations) without first giving a 25-hydroxy vitamin D test. Obviously, hypervitaminosis D, or overdosing on vitamin D can be just as serious as being deficient.

Meanwhile, those same doctors will turn around and give 40mg Lipitor prescriptions to almost everyone entering their offices, based on some arcane and incorrect formula. These practices still happen today, some of the motivation is based purely in greed. Or how about the far greater instances of osteonecrosis just now being found in those taking bisphosphonates, all those years later, contrary to FDA supported studies. And Fosamax has been in clinical practice even longer than finasteride, more than twelve years, and has been studied as much.

Although, I especially believe people who self-medicate on the Internet have the greatest chance of sides. They run the risk of over and undermedicating, or incorrectly diagnosing themselves. Which is why I highly recommend reducing dosage of finasteride, upon any instances of sides. There's no scientific proof it hurts or helps, I can only give my anecdotal support. Only when your areola drastically changes not only size and shape, but color, do you know there's a serious problem, needing immediate attention.
 

Harie

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Doctors don't like vitamins becaue they don't get $$ from pushing them. If you write 5000 (random made up #) scripts for ______ drug, sometimes you get perks etc. So the doctors have more incentives. Plus, people want drugs, and they'll make the doctors life hell, or go to someone who will give them what they want.

This reminds me of the over prescribing of antibiotics to fight viral infections. The doctors know they don't need antibiotics, but the people want them, so the doctors give them what they want. Good ol' people pleasing doctors. lol

But optimal levels of DHT mean nothing. If you're not predisposed to male pattern baldness you could have very high DHT levels and it would cause no harm. However, if you're predisposed to male pattern baldness, even normal levels of DHT cause problems. I do agree that, optimally, one would get their blood work done before they started taking an AI or self medicating.

But the clinical definition of normal estrogen levels may not be normal for me. I could be getting gyno, but have estrogen levels that fall within the norm. Unless you had blood drawn before finasteride and while on finasteride to monitor your blood levels, you'd not be able to rely on the clinical definition of "normal".

Under normal circumstances, yes, if you get sides, reduce your dosage. I researched finasteride and dutasteride for a few months before I started them. Then upon further research, I decided to switch from finasteride to dutasteride...But only take dutasteride once per week to absolutely minimize the risks of any sides.
 

buzzmenot

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Hey Harie with your take on the estrogen issue with finasteride, do you believe that phytoestrogens like soy increase the likely hood of cancer?
 

Harie

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buzzmenot said:
do you believe that phytoestrogens like soy increase the likely hood of cancer?

There is much research that says it increases the growth of certain types of cancer cells if you've already got said type of cancer.

I do not know if soy products increase the risk of someone actually contracting cancer though. It seems that there is a lot of conflicting research on the issue.

Personally, I think that men should limit their consumption of soy products and have believed that for years. Especially with the abundance of phytoestrogens in plastic, sometimes drinking water, fast food cooking oils etc.

With that said, a few months ago after reading many, many positive studies on soy, I was 1/2 convinced that it was ok stuff and went out and bought some soy milk. After a few weeks of drinking 8oz/day I began to notice that I was having overly sensitive nipples, and some days they hurt like hell. Once I noticed the nipple pain, I dumped the remaining soy milk down the drain. Once I stopped consuming soy, the pain/sensitivity went away.
 
G

Guest

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but

have you noticed that only the first research was about 1mg finasterid and breast cancer, the other two was about 5mg (dose used only on prostatic cancer, not on alopecia treatment) and relationship with male breast adenocarcinoma?although i have to admit that it is truly concerning that they have found two adenomacarcinoma malepatients when it's so rare usually.
 
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