increased body fat?

RaginDemon

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nobody would take finasteride for no reasons, we all know that messing with hormone is NOT a good thing

unfortunately we just have to take it to keep some hair. :(
 

PhoenixFly

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RaginDemon said:
nobody would take finasteride for no reasons, we all know that messing with hormone is NOT a good thing

unfortunately we just have to take it to keep some hair. :(


Yes most of us are crazy enough to carry on using it anyway, it would be great to find out what else we could take to lessen the bad effects of finasteride, Im hoping slax could give advice on that, he seems to have good ideas.
 

stax

Experienced Member
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Yes Pondle has absolutely no proof, or facts that Mercks documentation in clinical trials are accurate,ect. Those are not what we call facts. Merck has obviously not painted the full picture for everybody, so we have to do our own research. Even my Doctor told me i could try propecia, but he said its an anti-male hormone, and you need that hormone as it has functions in our body, and you may not want to reduce it. Thats why we were born with it.


Now im not saying Propecia is the worst drug on the planet, Dutasteride is a different story. After trying it i think i know why it wasnt approved for hairloss, very bad experience.


When it comes to synthetic drugs, nobody has any facts, and you cant say that its %100 safe. They are pulling drugs off the market 5-10 years later that were claimed to be safe, linking them with certain health problems,ect and even death.



Bottom line we dont want to lose hair, and Propecia seems to stop loss and even thicken/regrow hair pretty well, so that can be a simple solution. But DHT has many benificial functions for us males, and only elevated levels of DHT, above normal range, have been linked to prostate problems, as i explained. ANYTHING in exess is not good.



While you can use Things like Aromasin and Letrozole ( low dose ) to pretect you from the estrogenic side effects Finesteride and Dutasteride may have ( everybody reacts differently ), they cannot replace DHT.



Lowering estrogen too much isnt good either, and can cause fatigue, lowered libido, dry joints, lowered immune system, low seratoin,ect.



You would want to get blood work done when using these drugs, and see where your levels are at,ect, and adjust dosages, re-test, see how you feel,ect.



I would suggest that if you are worried about estrogenic sides. start with 10-12.5mg of Aromasin EOD, and see how you feel, get your estradiol, testosterone,ect, checked aswell. If anything Letrozole at 0.5mg EOD or E3D.


Myself, im going to order some liquid Letrozole and liquid Finesteride, and start with Letro, then gradually try and add in 1mg Finesteride. Im also ordering Dr.Kleins ProMox, so im hoping i can use that, and drop the Finesteride. Even if i dont get sides on Finesteride and Letro, i dont want to inhibit DHT if i dont have to to maintain my locks.
 

Pondle

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It's true that drugs trials and systematic reviews are not automatically of good quality and should be appraised critically. However, Merck's trial results have been accepted by regulators around the world like the FDA, MHRA and NICE, and no-one on here has ever presented a genuine, rigorous critical appraisal of their methodology or validity.

The fact is that doctors, consultants and pharmacists like my girlfriend rely on the 'official' drug information in product monographs, SPCs and the British National Formulary to make decisions about the most appropriate, effective and safe drugs for any given condition. Or would you rather that their decision-making was informed by random anecdotes and opinions on internet forums? :crazy:

Nothing is "100% safe", but we have to live in the real world. If you feel that Propecia or any other drug is too risky for you, fine, don't take it. Either way, I'd say we should all be getting our medical advice from doctors or other medical professionals, and not from randoms (including me) posting on internet forums.
 

evildude

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meh, most doctors know very little outside the common illnesses and conditions.

as for trusting the studies, any science based on human psychology and behaviour through self reporting is far from trustworthy. it'll probably give decent indications of something, but most likely the findings will be off by some margin. how much, is anyone's guess really.
 

Pondle

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It's true that many docs - especially general practitioners - know little about about finasteride, but you can always get a second opinion. That's far more sensible than trusting advice offered by forum posters who usually have no training, no qualifications and no credentials for offering a medical interpretation or suggesting a treatment regimen.

As for studies, as far as I'm concerned we're interested in making sure that they were well designed - using randomisation, blinds to avoiding observer bias, and being of sufficient size to have some statistical power. If people want to criticise any of the Propecia, Proscar or Avodart trials on those bases that's fine.
 

evildude

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well, i disagree. just look at posts on boards such as these. people using finasteride, either have no idea whether side effects are a result of finasterid or they acclaim just about every new sensation to the use of finasteride. why would studies be any different, regardless of how well implemented and designed they are? the flaws are not within the statistics, but soft science in itself. it is inheritably unreliable.

only a minority of those on finasteride will experience side effects, but how big that minority is, no one knows. saying it's 2% is wrong. 2% reported experiencing side effects. it may seem like semantics, but there's a difference...
 

Pondle

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Like I said before, conclusively proving a link between an instance of phenomena A and potential causal factor B is impossible because of extraneous variables.

I'm not really bothered about that - what matters to me is not the absolute level of sides, but the relativity between randomised treatment and placebo groups. If there's a statistically significant difference in the incidence of a phenomena in the two groups, and the treatment group shows a higher level of incidence, there's a good chance that the treatment was a causal factor.

This is where the role of theory comes in, i.e. understanding the biochemical changes induced by the drug and how they might cause the various phenomena. As usual in statistics, the data would lend support to the explanatory theory, but absolute certainty is never forthcoming!
 

stax

Experienced Member
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Exactly, it is YOUR choice if you wish to rely on product "monographs" as the end all be all information guide for synthetic drugs, especially hormone altering drugs, without doing your research.


DHT is the most androgenic male hormone in our body for .... sakes.


But YOU nor ANYBODY else can go around telling people that increased estrogenic fat gain, fatigue, bloat, ect, isnt a side effects of Finesteride and Dutasteride because the "product monograph" doesnt say so.



Thats the abolute stupidest thing ive heard, you should have done your research before making a stupid comment like that.


Just because YOU didnt experience that doesnt mean you have the right to tell others, judge them, and tell them its not possible because it wasnt in the "product monograph". Especially when you dont know a damned thing on the subject of hormones, at least regarding DHT and how it can affect other hormones,ect.


Now if somebody says they turned gay on Propecia, or Propecia gave them athlete's foot, then im less likely to beleive them, because those have nothing to do with hormones,ect, which Finesteride and Dutasteride alter. If your gay your gay, bottom line, your born that way, and its been linked to genetics.



Now to be fair i never gained bodyfat or bodyweight on Propecia, other then a tiny bit of estrogenic chest fat, which when i got on some anti-e's, went away. But ive always been muscular and lean my whole life, and even though Propecia increases total testosterone ( not free testosterone ), the androgen receptors are upregulated, thus you may actually gain a bit more muscle on Propecia, but its less likely to be lean solid muscle, and ou can still gain some estrogenic fat in a womans pattern, and the estrogenic side effects may creep up on you slowly like they did to me, before i started doing my research on how DHT, Estrogen,ect, work and how they effect other hormones.



On Dutasteride my forams looked like friggin popeye's, because at my job i grab heavy boxes all day, but it also made my face puffy, i got fatigue, and my facial skin was pretty dry and looked like crap. My muscles looked more swole, thats forsure. When i added AIMF, i looked really vascular and harder,ect. Ive had comments in the past about my natural physique, but i must say when i lifted heavy weights during this time period, i was looking jacked as hell, like i was on some juice or something. Was getting a LOT more comments. I made gains in only a few seriously heavy weight sessions.


But the bottom line is when you alter your hormones, things that you dont normally experience, you can experience.


Exess testosterone can cause fatigue, exess estrogen can cause fatigue, too little testosterone and estrogen can cause fatigue, same goes for DHT. Increased androgens alone can cause some bloat,ect. These hormones effects insulin, and many more things,ect.



SO the bottom line is you cant tell people that certain side effects,ect, that they are experiencing from Finesteride/Dutasteride, or ANY hormone altering drug, arent possible because they arent in the "product monograph", especially when you havent done your research, and because YOU didnt experience those sides.



They have certain guidlines for how much your testosterone,estradiol,ect, will increase, but those are just guidlines, and they were testing older men, which isnt a practical guidline for young men like us.


Ive seen people's estradiol shoot through the roof on Finesteride, and free testosterone being lowered on Dutasteride,ect.



Bottom line when you alter your hormones and take them out of their natural balance, you can experience some changes. Good, bad, whatever.
 

Pondle

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I'm not judging anyone, and I'm just posting information that I've come across. I've cited peer reviewed studies and the official data from the monographs. The FDA requires that Merck list all side effects, and just to avoid lawsuits, drug companies usually list any potential side effects the drug can have as well. If you don't think the information is credible take it up with the FDA / MHRA / whoever is the regulator in your country.

As evildude says, some people are going to attribute every phenomena they experience to finasteride, but that doesn't mean that it actually was the causal factor. BTW, with reference to the fatigue issue, there was no difference in incidence between treatment and placebo groups in a study of younger men (the Glaxo phase II dutasteride hair loss trial). But we've been over this territory before.

I've seen no studies showing fat gain as a result of finasteride use; I found one study looking at the effect of finasteride on BMI. You can read the results yourself - and yes it was a study of older men with BPH, so not "ideal"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... d_RVDocSum

Neither I nor you are competent to offer a medical opinion on the side effects of finasteride. We can just repeat what we've read elsewhere and offer a personal view. Anyone who's concerned should seek professional medical advice!
 

evildude

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Pondle said:
Like I said before, conclusively proving a link between an instance of phenomena A and potential causal factor B is impossible because of extraneous variables.

it's impossible when dealing with self reporting. it is simply impossible to gather objective information when the observations themselves are subjective. each individual is supposed to evaluate a drug's effects on themselves. that is to me bad science. too many unknown variables. no way of actually measuring or determining how accurate an observation really is. a clear bias, one way or the other, from the observer. it all boils down how one 'feels'. it may be the best, most practical option available, but that still does not change the fact that it is bad science.

Pondle said:
This is where the role of theory comes in, i.e. understanding the biochemical changes induced by the drug and how they might cause the various phenomena. As usual in statistics, the data would lend support to the explanatory theory, but absolute certainty is never forthcoming!
this, i would agree with. studies can indicate certain issues. give certain clues, but to fully understand a problem or issue, one needs to identify the biochemical processes within the body. how and what does a specific chemical influence. only way to do that, would be to conduct actual tests. not just ask some random patient about how he 'feels'...
 

Pondle

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evildude said:
it's impossible when dealing with self reporting. it is simply impossible to gather objective information when the observations themselves are subjective. each individual is supposed to evaluate a drug's effects on themselves. that is to me bad science. too many unknown variables. no way of actually measuring or determining how accurate an observation really is. a clear bias, one way or the other, from the observer. it all boils down how one 'feels'. it may be the best, most practical option available, but that still does not change the fact that it is bad science.

I agree but it's unavoidable in the case of a phenomenon like loss of libido or headaches or fatigue, which are usually pretty subjective and difficult or impossible to measure by any other means.

If you're looking for a cast iron figure for the number of patients who experience phenomenon A because of treatment X, obviously we're sunk. But if you're only interested in the relativity between treatment and placebo groups, which is where I tend to focus, it's not such a big problem (assuming randomisation, blinds etc etc).
 

PhoenixFly

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stax said:
I would suggest that if you are worried about estrogenic sides. start with 10-12.5mg of Aromasin EOD, and see how you feel, get your estradiol, testosterone,ect, checked aswell. If anything Letrozole at 0.5mg EOD or E3D.


Myself, im going to order some liquid Letrozole and liquid Finesteride, and start with Letro, then gradually try and add in 1mg Finesteride. Im also ordering Dr.Kleins ProMox, so im hoping i can use that, and drop the Finesteride. Even if i dont get sides on Finesteride and Letro, i dont want to inhibit DHT if i dont have to to maintain my locks.


Hey Stax thanx for the info, I'm pretty new to all of this, after researching a bit on google, I know a LITTLE bit more about these, it seems body builders who use certain drugs also use it to combat Gyno.

Now you see i think I may have a little gyno, I'm not sure if its because of extra fat, So Ive started exercising(jogging) to see if it goes. But I would really like to try what you advised also.

Few things I'm wondering:
1.If I start taking Aromasin EOD, how long would I have to take it? Do I just use it until I think the gyno is gone(how long would that take? lol), and only use it again if I think it comes back? Because DAMN these are expensive.

2. Whats best for getting rid of gyno, Aromasin or Letrozole. If its Aromasin do you want to use Letrozole because its better just to prevent it, and aromasin is better for those wanting to get rid of it?

3. Where do you buy Aromasin EOD, I can only find aromasin. Or is EOD just a word that means something else?

4, Minor question whats Dr.Kleins ProMox? cant find any info.

Sorry for asking you these questions, but Its better than asking in a bodybuilding forum, because this is more about finasteride. And you know a lot, you seem like the best guy here to ask about this. If you would PLEASE help me, thank you! this would be a BIG help.

Peace.

By the way I have NO other side effects, I feel great, except for possible gyno.
 

joseph49853

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PhoenixFly said:
Hey Stax thanx for the info, I'm pretty new to all of this, after researching a bit on google, I know a LITTLE bit more about these, it seems body builders who use certain drugs also use it to combat Gyno.

Now you see i think I may have a little gyno, I'm not sure if its because of extra fat, So Ive started exercising(jogging) to see if it goes. But I would really like to try what you advised also.

Few things I'm wondering:
1.If I start taking Aromasin EOD, how long would I have to take it? Do I just use it until I think the gyno is gone(how long would that take? lol), and only use it again if I think it comes back? Because DAMN these are expensive.

2. Whats best for getting rid of gyno, Aromasin or Letrozole. If its Aromasin do you want to use Letrozole because its better just to prevent it, and aromasin is better for those wanting to get rid of it?

3. Where do you buy Aromasin EOD, I can only find aromasin. Or is EOD just a word that means something else?

4, Minor question whats Dr.Kleins ProMox? cant find any info.

Sorry for asking you these questions, but Its better than asking in a bodybuilding forum, because this is more about finasteride. And you know a lot, you seem like the best guy here to ask about this. If you would PLEASE help me, thank you! this would be a BIG help.

Peace.

By the way I have NO other side effects, I feel great, except for possible gyno.

This forum is far more conservative in its approach than the forums at bodybuilding.com, which is a good thing. However, posters here are also far more limited in their scientific scope, certainly in terms of hormonal regulation. They center their compendium of knowledge around typecasting DHT as the 'bad guy,' while seeing all other hormones merely revolving around it. Anyway, trying to rid finasteride sides is like a dog chasing its own tail, but good luck. :) Although, I'll admit reading the few messages by Stax in this thread have been a breath of fresh air.
 

stax

Experienced Member
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All i can say is that everybody is different.


I used Propecia without any anti-estrogen for the first 10 months as i didnt know about them then, and i didnt gain any fat weight, though it definetly is possible. I got other side effects though.


I DID however, gain a timy bit of fat tissue in my pecks, like the female pattern type thing.


I did quit for a little bit and used an Anti-E, Letro then Aromasin at the time, it went away, then started on dutasteride. Big mistake for me.



Even though i kept any fat or gyno under control, i got a host of other side effects, and just felt like sh*t on the drug no matter what.



I suggest that nobody use Avodart, thats my suggestion. If you do, your own your own i dont think you are going to beat the side effects of that drug by adding another.



If your on Finesteride and devoloping gyno, then i would quit Finesteride, get on some Letrozole 0.5mg to start if the gyno isnt that bad, and 2.5mg everyday if you have lumps, and continue on that dose untill they go away. How long it takes to get rid of depends, there is no specific time. It could take weeks or months. Also make sure you just dont have chest fat opposed to fatty tissue or lumps.


Once it goes away then slowly taper off of Letrozole to avoid an estrogen spike rebound, and re-introduce Finesteride slowly to start at mabye 0.25mg.


Then if everything is okay i would either use some AIMF 1 pump monring, 1 pump at night, or Aromasin 12.5mg EOD, and see how you feel.


Reducing DHT can have side effects of its own, or generally make you feel not as good, and there is nothing you can do about it.



All an Anti-Estrogen can do is reduce some of the possible estrogen related side effects caused by lowered DHT and increased Estradiol.



I can tell you guys from personal experience, that DHT indeed does protect you from elevated Estradiol and the possible side effects of elevated Estradiol. Estradiol also doesnt do sh*t to protevt my hair against DHT, so good riddons Estradiol, its good for nothing but gyno, loss of sex drive, increased ability for fat gain, inhibiting proper Testosterone function, inhibiting thyroid hormones, and f*****g up your prostate. Men need very little Estradiol, its best to be on the lower side of normal range.



For example i tried a product called Dermacrine recently to raise my low DHEA levels, and my Testosterone increased as a results. I didnt use an anti-estrogen during this time.


I got blood work done 3 days after i finished the Dermacrine, and my results were the following.


DHEA-S - 3.3 LOW Range 7.6-17.4
Estradiol-17 Beta - 224 HIGH Range Up To 206
DHT= 3391 - Range 860 - 3406


So you see my Estradiol was high, and DHT was borderline high.

I didnt have any gyno symptoms at all, or symptoms of high estrogen, and my body was hard.


So that goes to show you that DHT does antagonize Estrogen, and protects from it negative effects.


It is obvious that when you use Finesteride to reduce DHT, you first lose the egtrogen antagonizing effects of DHT, plus Estradiol increases even more on top if it all.


So you can see why some people get side effects.

There are a lot of negative side effects from estrogen dominance. Do some research if you already havent experienced them for yourself.



At the end of the day i suggest getting blood work done before you start Finesteride, then after 2 weeks or so, get a repeat test of your blood work done.


Most importantly, see how you feel because even though you may have normal Estradiol levels, DHT wont be around to protect against its possible negative effects.
 

joseph49853

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I might also suggest a more simple - yet perfectly plausible -solution: supplementation with pregnenolone, especially for anyone over the age of 35-40. As the mother of all hormones, prenenolone will allow your body to find its own level of hormonal homeostasis. While pregnenolone itself is not a hormone, it is a precursor to all hormone production -- manufactured from cholesterol. In my estimation, this is a lot less variable an approach.
 

blaze

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Most importantly, see how you feel because even though you may have normal Estradiol levels, DHT wont be around to protect against its possible negative effects.
This makes alot of sense.
 

IBM

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I believe the key to scalp improvement is on phytoestrogens. Things like chickpeas and beans are good sources of phytoestrogens. Unfortunately i cant find flax seeds.
 

stax

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Pregnenolone can convert into Progesterone, and Progesteroen can also cause gyno. Progesterone also has DHT regulating effects and can lower DHT.


DHT has anti Progestin effects aswell, so when you are blocking DHT and introduce Pregnenolone, it "may" pose some problems due to its conversion to Progesterone.


The Dermacrine that i used contained Pregnenolone aswell, and i got the odd nipple itch, and my hair actually looked thicker for a little while i was on it.


Im suspecting the Pregnenolone to Progesterone conversion reduced my DHT possibly, and when i finished it my DHT soon returned to normal.


I dont think Pregnenolone will allow your body to find its own level of hormonal homeostasis, when you are on Finesteride, because you are lowering your DHT by about 75%, and its kind of hard for your body to be balanced when you do this.


Pregnenolone will also do absolutely nothing as far as Estrogen is concerned.


I would only use Pregnenolone if you have low levels of it, or DHEA,ect.
 
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