Immune system and hairloss!!

[garthbrooks]

I think the proof is common sense. Doesn't neccessarily mean it's possible. We are still talking about a business here.

 

[lentara]

I'm going to have to go w/paladin X on this... at least a bit. Let's be honest...the pharmaceutical companies are in it for the $$...plain and simple. They are not some benign force just out to help the world. They are a business. And if a cure for thinning/baldness does come about we're gonna have to pay out the *** for it! You know, give up our first born or what not. :lol:
Now, I don't think it's a conspiracy or that they'd stop a cure from being put on the market but it's still okay to question their priorities. Question authority and at least try to hold them to some accountability.
ah, what the hell...let's just all shave our heads and say f'ck it! ...or not... :wink:

 

[HairlossTalk]

You have found exactly what I found out when I went to a dermatologist.. The guy wrote me a prescription for propecia in 5 minutes and left the room. I felt robbed and every question I asked, this was before I became educated from this website, he couldnt really answer.

Health care today is a joke. The only value of doctors to me today, LITERALLY, is that they can write prescriptions for me. They have no other value. A little study reveals their information and "diagnosis" and analysis of test results to be flawed at least 30% of the time.

1. Doctors would all be sued and in jail for malpractice if the Immune System didnt kick in and resolve 90% of their "I dont know why that's happening" conditions, or complete misdiagnosis.

2. The internet has educated the general public more than any doctor could learn in a classroom. They hate the internet. They mask their hate as "sites that give misinformation". In reality its affecting their job security and their previous "god" status among us uneducated lowly non-physicians.

3. Somewhere near 18,000 people died in US hospitals in 2001 because of misdiagnosis, or doctors refusing to run diagnostic tests because of pressure from insurance companies.

I get attitudes from nurses, doctors, and assistants alike if you so much as do ANYTHING out of the ordinary to follow up, follow through, or do anything beyond sitting silent and letting them decree their diagnosis and walk out of the room (after making you wait 2 weeks for an appointment that only lasts 5 minutes). My car gets better service from my mechanic than my body does. If I hear so much as a "ticking" noise, its considered logical and normal to bring it in for an inspection... and they inspect it inside and out until they exhaust themselves. That's the best I can ask for, even if they find nothing.

Bring your body in for a "tick" and you will literally get looked at cross eyed, possibly asked why you are wasting their time with insignificant issues, and after a few times of this, labeled a hypochondriac.

I went in for my first "Complete Physical" in 29 years last month. Want to know what my doctor did? He sat down and asked me: "Any breathing problems?" (no) "Any digestion related issues?" (not that i can think of, sometimes i get [he interrupts] "Any skin related conditions?" (um, well i have some problems on my chin, flares up like crazy sometimes) "Oh thats just probably just eczema. Okay, any Blood in the stool, or urine?" (not really no). "Okay! All done". The end. That was my complete physical. Not a single blood test. Didn't even check my breathing. These people need to remember they are providing a service they are getting paid for. This is the one industry where the customer is always wrong.

Yes Im bitter. But Im also right.

HairLossTalk.com

Disclaimer: The above statements are not universally true. There are about 10% of the physician population that not only (1) care about their clients deeply but they also (2) do their best to stay educated on the latest in every condition they treat. Unfortunately it is the majority that ruins it for the few in this case.

 

[Jack_the_Lad]

Ok

Doctors spend very little time with thier cleints, I find them the same way, i usually only want to go to them to get prescriptions. I had to force a doctor to get a blood test on me, because I wanted to follow my hormones for finasteride, and also have my cholesterol checked aswell.

The just labelled me a natural worrier, I mean I'm paying for the tests and paying for his time so he should shut up and do his job. As it shows my cholesterol is slighly rised so it was just aswelll I got it checked, these are things you wouldn't notice about a person by just looking at them.

 

[Guest]

Actually the estimate of patients who die in US Hospitals due to error of all kinds is 180,000 per year. The majority of those are believed to be due to pres. drug errors.

Having said that, the industry IS working on those issues big time. Not to defend them, simply stating facts as they are.

Re: your doctor, fire him and find another. Their ARE good ones out there.

Good luck HairLossTalk.com.

 

[powersam]

i think those comments are both unfair and unwarranted honestly. i must state also that im in aus and maybe the problems in US are different to here but i doubt it.

"majority of deaths usually due to prescription drug errors" for the most partthis is due to prescriptions not being followed correctly , double dosing etc. all a doctor can do is tell you what to do , not make you do it

"doctors spend little time with their patients" a direct result of insurance companies. doctors make little to no money unless they follow the exact patient guidelines set out by insurance accountants. who usually say 15 mins is enough for any patient. go see a doctor who doesnt bulk bill and pay for it. you'll get far more time. plus a slight raise in cholesterol has little to no actual effect on your body. exercise more

and to hair transplant , you show through your other posts you put a lot of thought into anything you say , up until this point. the fact that doctors are being sued so much is why healthcare is so reserved and expensive , absolutely anything they do or say will be seized on to justify a lawsuit. doctors are people and sometimes make mistakes. they arent gods but people seem to expect them to be. you dont make mistakes? moreover medicine is both an art and a science , as not all the answers are known. an example of this is male pattern baldness , many guesses can be made about the cause but it isnt known for sure. the same is true of the human body as a whole , many diseases havent been discovered and new ones are coming along all the time. there is no way to keep up. if your immune system can handle it you shouldnt be seeing doctor in the first place. Moreover many interent sites to give misleading , contradictory and sometimes downright false information. the internet is a vast place with a lot of truth , lies and theories. the attitude get from doctors and nurses may be due to the fact that the majority of them work hugely long hours due to funding cuts , and maybe they are a little tired. simply put , it is a human profession with human mistakes , you say they think they are gods and then expect them to be just that, then get annoyed when they are not. there are the good and the bad in any and every profession , so why should this one be written off for being just as human as anyone else.


nb/ i am not a doctor nor connected to the health profession in any way , i am simply a great supporter of logical rational thought and fairp play in all walks of life

 

[flux]

This has got to be one of the worst threads I have read in a while.


I'm supprised nobody answered Jack's question,.

YES, the immune system causes hairloss. This is known.

There is a drug called Cyclosporin that will grow hair like nothing else,. far better then minoxidil or Propecia. The reason is, this drug suppresses the immune system (its intended to decrease organ transplant rejection), but nobody with any sence in their skull would use this for hairloss, because supressing the immune system can be fatal!


And that bullshit about big buisness not wanting a cure for hairloss, what big buisness are we talking about? Merck?? Who else stands to profit besides them and the makers of Rogain? And whoever did find a cure would certainly be raking in the dough forever, because while you might never need the cure again, theres a baldy born every minute, and with a real *cure*, you better believe that a lot more people would throw their $$ down then those of us who do for current treatments.

 

[HairlossTalk]

i must state also that im in aus and maybe the problems in US are different to here but i doubt it.

They very well may be, and that is a significant point to mention. Things aren't the same with health care even as close as Canada. My friends there are very happy with what is available.

"majority of deaths usually due to prescription drug errors" for the most partthis is due to prescriptions not being followed correctly , double dosing etc. all a doctor can do is tell you what to do , not make you do it

The number I quoted is different from Bruce's and was broadcast all over national television two years ago. So its accurate. There in fact is a man lobbying congress about this very issue, and this very number, and it was directly related to misdiagnoses by doctors and the refusal to run diagnostic tests. Something I have run into BLATANTLY from more than 10 doctors in my short lifetime, two of which blatantly admitting its because of pressure from insurance companies. There have been expose's on television all over the place here on how doctors who stay under a certain $ amount for diagnostic tests get financial kickbacks at the end of the year as a reward. This isnt opinion, its fact.

Watch the movie "John Q" if you want to see an entire movie repeating the opinions of my above post. There is a reason that movie was made. The acting is horrible but the message is loud and clear.

"doctors spend little time with their patients" a direct result of insurance companies. doctors make little to no money unless they follow the exact patient guidelines set out by insurance accountants. who usually say 15 mins is enough for any patient. go see a doctor who doesnt bulk bill and pay for it. you'll get far more time. plus a slight raise in cholesterol has little to no actual effect on your body. exercise more

All you're saying with that comment is that I am right. The health care system is F*cked up. That is not the way to run things when people's lives are at stake. Reform is needed badly. Just because insurance accountants and the almighty dollar are making the rules doesn't make it any less wrong. It makes it more wrong, and you've just verified why things are so backwards with the medical system.

and to hair transplant , you show through your other posts you put a lot of thought into anything you say , up until this point.

I can assure you, more thought has gone into the above post than any other post I have ever placed on this message board. I've got a pile of paperwork proving every word of it, as well as personal experiences with myself and family members. 5 years ago a man blocked off a highway in Los Angeles and set himself on fire, killing himself, with the sole message to the world that the HMO health care system was killing people. I feel very strongly about this issue and could talk for more than 2 hours with specific examples of how the health care system is not working, and is harming people in its current state. If it weren't for the fact that people had immune systems, the entire health care system would crumble to the ground tomorrow because the incredibly high # of errors. "Take 2 aspirins and call me in the morning". Why do you think that's the most well known doctor related cliche? Because they don't do a damn thing. They rely on the immune system to resolve 90% of problems and if it didn't, they would be shown for what most of them really are. Misinformed, undereducated, and grossly under-monitored.

the fact that doctors are being sued so much is why healthcare is so reserved and expensive , absolutely anything they do or say will be seized on to justify a lawsuit.

Ok mister logical thinker. Lets see. Its okay to sue someone if they put a razor blade in your soup. Its ethical to hold a marine accountable if he endangers the lives of his team or civilians around him. But we should look at doctors who are responsible for our very existences and have pity on them, and say GOSH... LETS STOP BEING SO HARD ON THEM. So what if they make mistakes and people die? Its your fault that you wait 2 weeks to see one, because you're all suing them for malpractice. Here's a news flash for you. Every single malpractice suit goes to court and has to be PROVEN to be legitimate. If it is found that the doctor royally screwed up, he will be found guilty, just like every other profession or crime. Yet you are on their side? Thats incredible. Its one thing to sue McDonalds for 20 million dollars because your coffee is too hot. Its another thing to take a doctor to court and win because he didn't bother to do his job. Don't defend them. Why can't someone build a system of checks and balances to protect doctors? If they had something like this, then patients would be followed up with by the doctors peer or superior. There are *so many* ways they could improve the system AND protect doctors more AND protect patients in the process. But they do none of it.

They are responsible for lives. Name any other profession on this planet that is responsible for lives that doesn't have the most STRINGENT code of conduct for its employees? The most incredibly complicated checks and balances to ensure that the PROPER and CORRECT decision was made. The most elaborate punishments if one of their own makes an error and lives are lost because of it. But what do doctors have? Well lets see. I walk into the doctors office complaining of severe chest pain. What does he do? Well lets not go into the fact that I waited 2 weeks to get there and had 14 days of sleepless nights while he was busy playing golf on his bankers hours and didnt have 15 mins for me. I get in there and he stands 10 feet from me, and tells me ... "Its Gas". Tells me to take some Gas-X and then walks out of the room. That night, what would have happened if I had gone home and died? Would anyone have even known I was just at "Dr. Swansons Office" that day? Would anyone know what was said to me? Would anyone hold him responsible for what he did? Did anyone check his diagnosis to make sure it was the correct decision? Did he do any diagnostic tests to rule out more serious problems? The answer to all of those is a resounding NO. 2 years later I was brought into the emergency room here in san diego with severe pain in my lower esophagus/stomach only to be told I had a longstanding ulcer that was severely affecting my stomach since I had done nothing about the pain. Why didn't I go to get a second opinion? I did. I saw 4 doctors. None of them did a G*d damn thing.

The emergency room doctor at Scripps Clinic in san diego was the most educated person I'd met. In 5 minutes she diagnosed it as a H Pylori infection. Put me on double antibiotics and antacid for 2 weeks. 15 days later I was literally cured of a severe ulcer and havent had pain since.

Tell me I haven't thought about how much the medical system sucks. You'd be wrong. This is just ONE of about 10 stories I have personally of blatant and absolute FLAGRANCE on the part of the medical community.

doctors are people and sometimes make mistakes.

That's why professions that involve saving and maintaining lives always have checks and balances. Someone needs to build in accountability, and followup. Im not one of those people who complains about "the way things are" without having thoroughly thought of a solution. I have several ideas but there isn't a chance in hell anyone would listen. It is going to take a major disaster before they do major reform. Unfortunately that is how human beings are. Take note of 911 and the flight safety issue.

As for the rest of your comments, all I am going to say is this:

1. You better hope you never get a disease that is preventable, and find yourself in the united states with an HMO to keep you alive.

2. You better hope if you do get that disease, that it doesn't progress quickly, because you will be waiting MONTHS before you get an accurate diagnosis and treatment, assuming a specialist is even available. The current wait for an endocrinologist appointment in san diego right now is SIX MONTHS.

3. You better hope your symptoms are classic of 1st grade level medicine training because if they're more elusive than that, you're not only not going to get diagnosed at all, but there isnt' going to be a doctor around who is going to be willing to run more tests on you, unless you kick and scream.

And lastly, as for promoting rational thought? Next time a relative dies because the doctor was late for lunch and didn't bother checking something about their condition, because they're "not god" and they're "just human" as you put it and "nobody's perfect" ... come knock on my door and tell me "No big deal, my dads dead, the doctor could have done more. he just made a mistake, oh well i dont want to upset him and take him to court for damages."

Rational Thought? Please.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[HairlossTalk]

Bruce, only people who have several health related issues will fully understand the position I have. Most people glide throughout life without too much to complain about. Those folks will never experience the ins and outs of how disorganized, archaic, and poor the health system is right now.

On a positive note, because I am also a promoter of rational thought and fairness on both sides (when it is due) ... like PowerSam claims he is...

Scripps Clinic and the Scripps Research Institute and Scripps Hospital in La Jolla have always impressed me. You can tell in about 30 seconds whether a doctor is educated or not. This is a research institute, so all they do all day is "think out of the box" and continually update their personal education on whatever it is they work with. Those doctors are living examples of how health care should be.

I have the UTMOST respect for ER physicians. They are absolutely positively the CREAM of the crop. They are so incredibly overwhemlingly educated, on top of things, FAST, and CARING that I cannot even begin to explain it. The ones at Scripps, that is.

So yes, they do exist. But I believe they make up about 20% of the physician population, at most. They first need the heart to give a damn. Secondly they need continuing education with their last "class" literally being the night before, every single day. If you can have those two things, you will avert 99% of misdiagnoses, and avoidance of diagnostic tests. The doctor has to care and be educated.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[HairlossTalk]

Back on Topic, Flux is correct. Hair loss has been hypothesized as an elusive combination of both hormonal influences and immune system influences. Especially in the case of Alopecia Areata and the other types of alopecias. In Male Pattern baldness, the immune response can be seen in the inflammation and irritation that develops in many men. This is why handling it with anti inflammatories and antifungals can play a signifcant role in slowing down and stopping hair loss.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[HairlossTalk]

Sorry for the multiple posts, but I just ran across this comment from you in another thread PowerSam. Seems you already know exactly what Im talking about.

Also i went to a dermatologist and she basically looked at my hairline , from about 2 meters away and said "yes you have male pattern baldness , nothing can be done , you shouldnt care". Is it just me or does this seem like a very inadequate examination , and unhelpful information.

As you said ... don't be hard on her, she's only human, not god.

Right? :ermm:

Oh, and aren't you just ELATED that she just made $75 for saying 10 words to you and telling you to go home? Isn't that NEAT!

 

[Paladin_X]

Hairlosstalk

I couldnt agree more with you hairlosstalk.. I have felt the same for many years, and I think people do not realize how screwed up the medical industry is.. Once again bruce lee doesnt acknowledge the main concept thats being discussed, but trys to play the role of devil's statistical advocate. Bruce, once again, your comments are irritating, and your not proving any intelligence by looking up statistics and constantly trying to contradict people.. Im yet to see a single thought that originated from your own brain outside of a quick copy and paste.

 

[Dice_Has_Hair]

immune system

There are alot of people out there with autoimmmune disorders. There are alot of bald m****r fu**ers out there too. Hhhhmmmm. I wonder. Maybe if one could lower a overactive immunesystem with an immune system modulator like Moducare it could curb hairloss. I was on Moducare once for my allergies and it did work. I also read that this Moducare was used for prostrate enlargement successfully. It can be also used for many other diseases and disorders including AIDS. It is good for the immune system. It is supposed to lower an overactive and raise a low immune system. Its a modulator. It contains plant sterols and sterolins. Along with its treatment with prostrate enlargement it inhibits DHT and it supposedly helped these balding men with their hair. Of course the hair thing was anecdotal. Damn it. I really wish they would conduct some really good studies with natural remedies for hairloss that way there would be clear proof of their effectiveness. Just think of all the drug companies that would fall under if nature proved to be just as effective or more effective than drugs for treating diseases and disorders. Their business would greatly go down hill. Any body with a good head on their shoulders would want an effective treatment without all the side effects. Of course nature can give side effects as well if used improperly or irresponsibly. What do you all think? :? :? :? :? :? :? :hairy: :hairy: :hairy:

 

[Jack_the_Lad]

I wonder how you would know if your immune system was overactive. I definatly wouldn't take an auto-immune drug for hairloss or anything. I used to find it hard to have a piss before taking finasteride, bladder never quite empting, so I must of had an enlarged prostate to some extent, I thought that this was something that happened to much older men than me. Well at least I finally got the answer on the immune system, cheers for that guys.

 

[Dice_Has_Hair]

I wonder how you would know if your immune system was overactive. I definatly wouldn't take an auto-immune drug for hairloss or anything. I used to find it hard to have a piss before taking finasteride, bladder never quite empting, so I must of had an enlarged prostate to some extent, I thought that this was something that happened to much older men than me. Well at least I finally got the answer on the immune system, cheers for that guys.

There are quite a few people that have overactive immunesystems and probably don't even know it. I have allergies. I've been told it is a form of autoimmune disorder. The best way to find out if you have one is probably through a good doctor. It would be cool if you could lower the immune system response to the hair follicles at the scalp. My opinion it would probably have to be a topical. A systematic probably wouldn't be very promising that it would go all over the body not just the scalp. It would probably be dangerous for ones health. I guess for now a DHT blocker, hair growth stimulator, and an antiinflammatory are among the chosen treatments of choice. Surely there has got to be more out there as far as treatment goes.

 

[powersam]

sorry for the thread hijack there people.

hair transplant if you want to continue this discussion , i would be more than willing. the thing is i think the health system is totally flawed also , i just dont like the fact that doctors are lumped in with the evil doers. its a very very hard profession made harder by the fact that many assumptions are made about it with little knowledge ( not a remark aimed at you) . although on the topic of sueing doctors , it seems to me a little bit like when a western doctor is kidnapped by some random jungle tribe and told cure the chief or we'll eat you, and if you cant , your screwed. not everything can be cured, and not every diagnosis can be made without hugely expensive tests which the patients dont want to pay for. i think doctors should answer to some governing body , and then that governing body answer to the patients. just a thought

 

[Jack_the_Lad]

I wonder how you would know if your immune system was overactive. I definatly wouldn't take an auto-immune drug for hairloss or anything. I used to find it hard to have a piss before taking finasteride, bladder never quite empting, so I must of had an enlarged prostate to some extent, I thought that this was something that happened to much older men than me. Well at least I finally got the answer on the immune system, cheers for that guys.

There are quite a few people that have overactive immunesystems and probably don't even know it. I have allergies. I've been told it is a form of autoimmune disorder. The best way to find out if you have one is probably through a good doctor. It would be cool if you could lower the immune system response to the hair follicles at the scalp. My opinion it would probably have to be a topical. A systematic probably wouldn't be very promising that it would go all over the body not just the scalp. It would probably be dangerous for ones health. I guess for now a DHT blocker, hair growth stimulator, and an antiinflammatory are among the chosen treatments of choice. Surely there has got to be more out there as far as treatment goes.

I don't have any allergies, but what kind of test does a Doctor do to find out about autoimmune disorders. My guess is that a doctor would do a red and white blood cell count. I reacon the only final cure for baldness will have to be a genetic cure i.e( clonning hair or gene therapy ) something along this line what do you think

 

[Dice_Has_Hair]

[quote="Jack_the_Lad":af326]I wonder how you would know if your immune system was overactive. I definatly wouldn't take an auto-immune drug for hairloss or anything. I used to find it hard to have a piss before taking finasteride, bladder never quite empting, so I must of had an enlarged prostate to some extent, I thought that this was something that happened to much older men than me. Well at least I finally got the answer on the immune system, cheers for that guys.

There are quite a few people that have overactive immunesystems and probably don't even know it. I have allergies. I've been told it is a form of autoimmune disorder. The best way to find out if you have one is probably through a good doctor. It would be cool if you could lower the immune system response to the hair follicles at the scalp. My opinion it would probably have to be a topical. A systematic probably wouldn't be very promising that it would go all over the body not just the scalp. It would probably be dangerous for ones health. I guess for now a DHT blocker, hair growth stimulator, and an antiinflammatory are among the chosen treatments of choice. Surely there has got to be more out there as far as treatment goes.

I don't have any allergies, but what kind of test does a Doctor do to find out about autoimmune disorders. My guess is that a doctor would do a red and white blood cell count. I reacon the only final cure for baldness will have to be a genetic cure i.e( clonning hair or gene therapy ) something along this line what do you think[/quote:af326]I agree. But for some reason cloning and gene therapy sounds like you are really screwing around with mother nature bigtime. Some thing would have to go wrong. I guess if one is desprit enough for curing hairloss then hop on the bandwagon. Ya know what I mean. :hairy: :hairy: :hairy: :hairy:

 

[Jack_the_Lad]

well they say clonning individual hairs isn't that far around the corner but I'm not so sure about that. It would be a bit too drastic to physacally change your genetic makeup

 

[20something]

well they say clonning individual hairs isn't that far around the corner but I'm not so sure about that. It would be a bit too drastic to physacally change your genetic makeup

How is that changing your genetic makeup? It's not gene therapy. Just cloning/multiplying hair through different techniques and then implanting. The industry seems comfortable at projecting this at 5 years out all the time. Articles from 1-2 years ago predicted '5 years from now'. Articles from today predict '5 years from now'. I'll believe it when I see it.