If people don't respond to propecia, is their DHT not guilty

[phish]

the reason i think test has sum role in hairloss is take sum1 that is loseing a ton of hair on dutasteride for a good year if hes blocking 98.5 percent dht how can he still lose a ton it doesn't add up to me. i just think for the most part 90 percent or more dht is the main factor but the people that keep loseing on dutasteride their has to be a reason other then dht.

 

[Johnny24601]

re:

DHT is a metabolite of testosterone and they are therefore connected to each other. People keep discussing these chemicals as if they are completely separate.
You increase T (i.e. steroids) you increase DHT and increase hairloss. Propecia simply efects the action of the enzyme that converts T to DHT.

 

[jackstraw419]

it means that you are inherited with very sensitive androgen receptors gene that even free T can bind to the receptors readily. free T and DHT can both induce hair apotosis. because researchers belived dht has a much higher affinity than T, so they only care about how to stop DHT. but for some people like you with very sensitive androgen, this will be a multple side battle(DHT, T, radicals, etcc)..

therefore its best to get something that inhibit these androgen receptors.

 

[viperfish]

Stop advising people to waste money


http://www.baldingblog.com/2006/08/03/a ... aser-comb/

I'm gonna keep posting that link every time Person advises that someone use the lasercomb.

Those are old posts. He has changed his tune, as of late. Especially since the FDA approval. Posting those are not doing you any good. That is one doctor saying this. I trust the team of doctors and scientists that were present during the testings and analysis to grant the FDA approval. Propecia was ridiculed when it first came out too.

 

[docj077]

I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that testosterone can have the same effects or even a greater effect in some men taking finasteride. Especially, those with female pattern baldness-like hair loss. Afterall, the most common finding associated with female pattern baldness in women is HIGH testosterone and LOW DHT, so I don't see why similar conditions couldn't cause the same phenomenon in men. Especially, those taking aromatase inhibitors.

That's just my two cents, however.

 

[hair today gone tomorrow]

I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that testosterone can have the same effects or even a greater effect in some men taking finasteride. Especially, those with female pattern baldness-like hair loss. Afterall, the most common finding associated with female pattern baldness in women is HIGH testosterone and LOW DHT, so I don't see why similar conditions couldn't cause the same phenomenon in men. Especially, those taking aromatase inhibitors.

That's just my two cents, however.

awww, you had to say that Doctor...i have female pattern loss with a perfect hairline...propecia for 11 months id say worked for maintaining...I was thinkin about switchin over to dutasteride...but you got me thinking twice now.

 

[hair today gone tomorrow]

I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that testosterone can have the same effects or even a greater effect in some men taking finasteride. Especially, those with female pattern baldness-like hair loss. Afterall, the most common finding associated with female pattern baldness in women is HIGH testosterone and LOW DHT, so I don't see why similar conditions couldn't cause the same phenomenon in men. Especially, those taking aromatase inhibitors.

That's just my two cents, however.

but Doctor...back to the psuedo's in the DR...they have no DHT and they dont seem to bald at all....wouldnt you think that at least some of them would bald in a female pattern and the primary culprit would be Test and not DHT?

 

[docj077]

I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that testosterone can have the same effects or even a greater effect in some men taking finasteride. Especially, those with female pattern baldness-like hair loss. Afterall, the most common finding associated with female pattern baldness in women is HIGH testosterone and LOW DHT, so I don't see why similar conditions couldn't cause the same phenomenon in men. Especially, those taking aromatase inhibitors.

That's just my two cents, however.

but Doctor...back to the psuedo's in the DR...they have no DHT and they dont seem to bald at all....wouldnt you think that at least some of them would bald in a female pattern and the primary culprit would be Test and not DHT?

You bring up an excellent point. I do know that female pattern baldness in women is associated with elevated testosterone and often low DHT to normal DHT levels.

I can't find a lot of information, but it is entirely possible that the increase in testosterone associated with 5AR deficiency could lead to excess estrogen production, as well. Excessive estrogen should offset the effects of androgens. However, my previous thoughts have never been investigated by researchers.

The physiological balance between androgens, estrogens, SHBG, and their overall interaction is definitely something that needs to be investigated. Afterall, it is not androgens that control hair growth in the axillary and pubic regions. It is the conversion of androgens into estrogens. Aromatizable androgens are required. Also, estrogens are known to make a significant contribution to spermatogenesis and a lack of estrogen in males can lead to fertility issues. Estrogens are required for proper bone growth, as well.

It is unbelievable frustrating to see people inhibit the creation of estrogens in for the sake of their hair. Estrogen is very important...even in the male body.

 

[hair today gone tomorrow]

I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that testosterone can have the same effects or even a greater effect in some men taking finasteride. Especially, those with female pattern baldness-like hair loss. Afterall, the most common finding associated with female pattern baldness in women is HIGH testosterone and LOW DHT, so I don't see why similar conditions couldn't cause the same phenomenon in men. Especially, those taking aromatase inhibitors.

That's just my two cents, however.

but Doctor...back to the psuedo's in the DR...they have no DHT and they dont seem to bald at all....wouldnt you think that at least some of them would bald in a female pattern and the primary culprit would be Test and not DHT?

You bring up an excellent point. I do know that female pattern baldness in women is associated with elevated testosterone and often low DHT to normal DHT levels.

I can't find a lot of information, but it is entirely possible that the increase in testosterone associated with 5AR deficiency could lead to excess estrogen production, as well. Excessive estrogen should offset the effects of androgens. However, my previous thoughts have never been investigated by researchers.

The physiological balance between androgens, estrogens, SHBG, and their overall interaction is definitely something that needs to be investigated. Afterall, it is not androgens that control hair growth in the axillary and pubic regions. It is the conversion of androgens into estrogens. Aromatizable androgens are required. Also, estrogens are known to make a significant contribution to spermatogenesis and a lack of estrogen in males can lead to fertility issues. Estrogens are required for proper bone growth, as well.

It is unbelievable frustrating to see people inhibit the creation of estrogens in for the sake of their hair. Estrogen is very important...even in the male body.

Doctor, as far as i know they have very slightly elevated Test levels..but still within the physiologic norm...similar to that of finasteride users...there estrogen levels are also likely in the normal ranges....surely if TEST. played a larger role than DHT in mens hair loss one of the these men would have at least went bald...

The fact that none of these men have balded....and they all have slightly elevated test and estrogen levels and no DHT leads me to believe that DHT is by far the most potent androgen in hair loss REGARDLESS of the actual balding pattern.

Lastly who is inhibiting the creation of estrogens? From what i know estrogens actually protect the hair!!...I also thought women began balding after menopause b/c their estrogen levels DROPPED.

 

[docj077]

[quote="hair today gone tomorrow":ebab6]

I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that testosterone can have the same effects or even a greater effect in some men taking finasteride. Especially, those with female pattern baldness-like hair loss. Afterall, the most common finding associated with female pattern baldness in women is HIGH testosterone and LOW DHT, so I don't see why similar conditions couldn't cause the same phenomenon in men. Especially, those taking aromatase inhibitors.

That's just my two cents, however.

but Doctor...back to the psuedo's in the DR...they have no DHT and they dont seem to bald at all....wouldnt you think that at least some of them would bald in a female pattern and the primary culprit would be Test and not DHT?

You bring up an excellent point. I do know that female pattern baldness in women is associated with elevated testosterone and often low DHT to normal DHT levels.

I can't find a lot of information, but it is entirely possible that the increase in testosterone associated with 5AR deficiency could lead to excess estrogen production, as well. Excessive estrogen should offset the effects of androgens. However, my previous thoughts have never been investigated by researchers.

The physiological balance between androgens, estrogens, SHBG, and their overall interaction is definitely something that needs to be investigated. Afterall, it is not androgens that control hair growth in the axillary and pubic regions. It is the conversion of androgens into estrogens. Aromatizable androgens are required. Also, estrogens are known to make a significant contribution to spermatogenesis and a lack of estrogen in males can lead to fertility issues. Estrogens are required for proper bone growth, as well.

It is unbelievable frustrating to see people inhibit the creation of estrogens in for the sake of their hair. Estrogen is very important...even in the male body.

Doctor, as far as i know they have very slightly elevated Test levels..but still within the physiologic norm...similar to that of finasteride users...there estrogen levels are also likely in the normal ranges....surely if TEST. played a larger role than DHT in mens hair loss one of the these men would have at least went bald...

The fact that none of these men have balded....and they all have slightly elevated test and estrogen levels and no DHT leads me to believe that DHT is by far the most potent androgen in hair loss REGARDLESS of the actual balding pattern.

Lastly who is inhibiting the creation of estrogens? From what i know estrogens actually protect the hair!!...I also thought women began balding after menopause b/c their estrogen levels DROPPED.[/quote:ebab6]

I really don't have a good answer for you with regards to the impact that testosterone can have on hair. I know that it can be elevated, but I really do doubt that elevated testosterone is the cause of problems for people on finasteride or dutasteride.

As for the estrogen inhibition question, as far as I know there are many people on these forum either using prescription or herbal aromatase inhibitors to prevent gynocomastia and other side effects associated with increased estrogen levels in men. Although, I'd probably argue that it's not necessarily the increase in estrogen that is responsible, but the increase in SHBG due to the actions of estrogens that is responsible.

 

[hair today gone tomorrow]

[quote="hair today gone tomorrow":954bc]

I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that testosterone can have the same effects or even a greater effect in some men taking finasteride. Especially, those with female pattern baldness-like hair loss. Afterall, the most common finding associated with female pattern baldness in women is HIGH testosterone and LOW DHT, so I don't see why similar conditions couldn't cause the same phenomenon in men. Especially, those taking aromatase inhibitors.

That's just my two cents, however.

but Doctor...back to the psuedo's in the DR...they have no DHT and they dont seem to bald at all....wouldnt you think that at least some of them would bald in a female pattern and the primary culprit would be Test and not DHT?

You bring up an excellent point. I do know that female pattern baldness in women is associated with elevated testosterone and often low DHT to normal DHT levels.

I can't find a lot of information, but it is entirely possible that the increase in testosterone associated with 5AR deficiency could lead to excess estrogen production, as well. Excessive estrogen should offset the effects of androgens. However, my previous thoughts have never been investigated by researchers.

The physiological balance between androgens, estrogens, SHBG, and their overall interaction is definitely something that needs to be investigated. Afterall, it is not androgens that control hair growth in the axillary and pubic regions. It is the conversion of androgens into estrogens. Aromatizable androgens are required. Also, estrogens are known to make a significant contribution to spermatogenesis and a lack of estrogen in males can lead to fertility issues. Estrogens are required for proper bone growth, as well.

It is unbelievable frustrating to see people inhibit the creation of estrogens in for the sake of their hair. Estrogen is very important...even in the male body.

Doctor, as far as i know they have very slightly elevated Test levels..but still within the physiologic norm...similar to that of finasteride users...there estrogen levels are also likely in the normal ranges....surely if TEST. played a larger role than DHT in mens hair loss one of the these men would have at least went bald...

The fact that none of these men have balded....and they all have slightly elevated test and estrogen levels and no DHT leads me to believe that DHT is by far the most potent androgen in hair loss REGARDLESS of the actual balding pattern.

Lastly who is inhibiting the creation of estrogens? From what i know estrogens actually protect the hair!!...I also thought women began balding after menopause b/c their estrogen levels DROPPED.

I really don't have a good answer for you with regards to the impact that testosterone can have on hair. I know that it can be elevated, but I really do doubt that elevated testosterone is the cause of problems for people on finasteride or dutasteride.

As for the estrogen inhibition question, as far as I know there are many people on these forum either using prescription or herbal aromatase inhibitors to prevent gynocomastia and other side effects associated with increased estrogen levels in men. Although, I'd probably argue that it's not necessarily the increase in estrogen that is responsible, but the increase in SHBG due to the actions of estrogens that is responsible.[/quote:954bc]

I see what your getting at now....thanks for the info.

 

[DHTcel]

If people don't respond to propecia, does that mean that DHT plays absolutely no role in their hairloss?

Because technically if DHT is what's responsible and this drug does a pretty damn good job at inhibiting it, then hair should grow back.

If it doesn't, isn't the only logical explanation that, DHT isn't to blame for your particular hair loss?

Or can it be that the drug just isnt reacting well with your system, and therefore isnt blocking DHT?

I don't understand how if DHT is involved in virtually everyone's hair loss, and this drug stops dht to a very high percentage why only 65% of men experience either regrowth or maintenance?

THat doesn't make any sense.

ALSO< why is it easier to maintain than to regrow?

Once a hair falls out then it's totally dead and there's no chance for that follicle to regrow any hair? Is that what it is?

It's confusing.

ANyways, I'm on:

Propecia/Proscar cut into 5ths,
Rogaine Foam 5%
Nizoral 1%
T-Gel
Shen Min lotion ( only on days when i don't do rogaine)
Nioxin shampoo


is there anything I should add to this or not add?

I've been off/on treatment since 2000. I haven't experienced anything significant yet because of my inconsistency, however, with what I'm on now, If I'm consistent, is there a chance that nothing may work at all?

How could all these proven treatments not do ANYTHING for hairloss at all?

I know some people are non responders, but the money thrown away is ridiculous.

Testosterone also causes hair loss, IT IS ALSO AN ANDROGEN, ITS CALLED ANDROGENETIC ALOPECIA, NOT DHT ALOPECIA FFS.

 

[DHTcel]

the reason i think test has sum role in hairloss is take sum1 that is loseing a ton of hair on dutasteride for a good year if hes blocking 98.5 percent dht how can he still lose a ton it doesn't add up to me. i just think for the most part 90 percent or more dht is the main factor but the people that keep loseing on dutasteride their has to be a reason other then dht.

estosterone also causes hair loss, IT IS ALSO AN ANDROGEN, ITS CALLED ANDROGENETIC ALOPECIA, NOT DHT ALOPECIA FFS.