If people don't respond to propecia, is their DHT not guilty

[Nickie]

If people don't respond to propecia, does that mean that DHT plays absolutely no role in their hairloss?

Because technically if DHT is what's responsible and this drug does a pretty damn good job at inhibiting it, then hair should grow back.

If it doesn't, isn't the only logical explanation that, DHT isn't to blame for your particular hair loss?

Or can it be that the drug just isnt reacting well with your system, and therefore isnt blocking DHT?

I don't understand how if DHT is involved in virtually everyone's hair loss, and this drug stops dht to a very high percentage why only 65% of men experience either regrowth or maintenance?

THat doesn't make any sense.

ALSO< why is it easier to maintain than to regrow?

Once a hair falls out then it's totally dead and there's no chance for that follicle to regrow any hair? Is that what it is?

It's confusing.

ANyways, I'm on:

Propecia/Proscar cut into 5ths,
Rogaine Foam 5%
Nizoral 1%
T-Gel
Shen Min lotion ( only on days when i don't do rogaine)
Nioxin shampoo


is there anything I should add to this or not add?

I've been off/on treatment since 2000. I haven't experienced anything significant yet because of my inconsistency, however, with what I'm on now, If I'm consistent, is there a chance that nothing may work at all?

How could all these proven treatments not do ANYTHING for hairloss at all?

I know some people are non responders, but the money thrown away is ridiculous.

 

[tomas99]

I believe that if Propecia at least do not stop hairloss (like in FDA trials), there could be different issue.

It is hard to say if you are losing on it faster or at the same rate. If there is really NO improvement, it could be something different. Simply, if you have an agressive hairloss and you are losing 5K each year and year on Propecia you lose also 5K hair, that means it is not working - it is not blocking any DHT or the reason is something else than DHT.

Even if you have mega sensitive follicles, it should at least be slowed down a little bit.

 

[Johnny24601]

re:

No one knows for sure but non-responders IMO either 1.) have another issue that is controlling their hairloss; or 2) (more likely) their follicles have progressed to such a point or have been pre-programmed to be highly sensitive to DHT and it is just too late or near impossible to fight this genetic predisposition.

 

[Guest]

no hair should not necessarily grow back on propecia. it should stop for most people, but even people who are castrated and eliminate the dht and most testosterone in their body don't grow back much hair if anything. they do stop losing it though.

dutasteride is far closer to castration though than finasteride is, because dutasteride inhibits 98.5% of 5ar2 in the follicles, while 1 mg only inhibits about 85%. that is a significant difference. I could see the 15% of remaining 5ar2 DHT still doing damage in people with strong hair loss genes, but having 1.5% of DHT left like on dutasteride makes it far more unlikely imo. dutasteride is really a lot stronger at inhibiting. I'd try it.

 

[person]

Re: If people don't respond to propecia, is their DHT not gu

If people don't respond to propecia, does that mean that DHT plays absolutely no role in their hairloss?

Because technically if DHT is what's responsible and this drug does a pretty damn good job at inhibiting it, then hair should grow back.

If it doesn't, isn't the only logical explanation that, DHT isn't to blame for your particular hair loss?

Or can it be that the drug just isnt reacting well with your system, and therefore isnt blocking DHT?

I don't understand how if DHT is involved in virtually everyone's hair loss, and this drug stops dht to a very high percentage why only 65% of men experience either regrowth or maintenance?

THat doesn't make any sense.

ALSO< why is it easier to maintain than to regrow?

Once a hair falls out then it's totally dead and there's no chance for that follicle to regrow any hair? Is that what it is?

It's confusing.

ANyways, I'm on:

Propecia/Proscar cut into 5ths,
Rogaine Foam 5%
Nizoral 1%
T-Gel
Shen Min lotion ( only on days when i don't do rogaine)
Nioxin shampoo


is there anything I should add to this or not add?

I've been off/on treatment since 2000. I haven't experienced anything significant yet because of my inconsistency, however, with what I'm on now, If I'm consistent, is there a chance that nothing may work at all?

How could all these proven treatments not do ANYTHING for hairloss at all?

I know some people are non responders, but the money thrown away is ridiculous.

You are doing a lot for your hairloss. On top of what you are using add a topical dht blocker (revivogen or fluridil - i will determine which one is better after my experiment) and a Hairmax Lasercomb. After this your only other option is dutasteride or a hair transplant.

 

[Guest]

Stop advising people to waste money


http://www.baldingblog.com/2006/08/03/a ... aser-comb/

I'm gonna keep posting that link every time Person advises that someone use the lasercomb.

 

[tomas99]

no hair should not necessarily grow back on propecia. it should stop for most people, but even people who are castrated and eliminate the dht and most testosterone in their body don't grow back much hair if anything. they do stop losing it though.

dutasteride is far closer to castration though than finasteride is, because dutasteride inhibits 98.5% of 5ar2 in the follicles, while 1 mg only inhibits about 85%. that is a significant difference. I could see the 15% of remaining 5ar2 DHT still doing damage in people with strong hair loss genes, but having 1.5% of DHT left like on dutasteride makes it far more unlikely imo. dutasteride is really a lot stronger at inhibiting. I'd try it.

Yeah, but logically, certain number of DHT (e.g. level 100) should not simply make same damage like 15 of DHT. I think it could be due to other factor, or that DHT is just something where it begins, so miniaturization process /which leads to death of follicle) is already there and once some proteins like TGF-beta have been stimulated by DHT, you can lower DHT as much as you want but you will not stop the process that is already set up.

 

[Guest]

tomas i don't put any stock in what you say at all. i've been watching you debate this with Doctor and it's clear that you don't have a good grasp of the role dht plays in hair loss. the huge role that it plays. you're one of the diet/nutrition people who thinks that male pattern baldness can basically be arrested with a proper diet and you're wrong.

 

[tomas99]

I really really hope that my male pattern baldness will stop or reverse even if I would not be on Propecia. Cause if it is like that, you could not say anything against such proof (with pics of course. Both you and Doctor will simply have to agree that it is possible.

I have never said that DHT does not play major role in hairloss. I have said that diet can have affect on DHT which means that not only DHT is the cause because due to certain diet DHT can be much more powerful.

 

[phish]

im a personal trainer who has their diet down to a science with best foods one can consume and was still losing hair, diet has no affect on male pattern baldness period maybe in about 2 percent that have horid diets but for the most part its androgens that destroy the hair follicle ie testosterone and dht, and no diet is going to reduce those significantly short of cuting ur balls off. so get on a dht blocker early either finasteride or dutasteride and pray for sumtin better in future. cheers

i have a firm belief that in a year if finasteride has not slowed down your hair loss or reversed it you either have way to strong of male pattern baldness and not much hope or dht is not causing the death of your follicles but testerone is. what would be real intestring study to me is if you could eliminate 100 percent of dht in the person balding that didnt respond to finasteride and see if he still loses more hair but keep his test levels the same. i suspect that that he might still lose hair but we may never kno sum1 work on that study.

 

[tomas99]

im a personal trainer who has their diet down to a science with best foods one can consume and was still losing hair, diet has no affect on male pattern baldness period maybe in about 2 percent that have horid diets but for the most part its androgens that destroy the hair follicle ie testosterone and dht, and no diet is going to reduce those significantly short of cuting ur balls off. so get on a dht blocker early either finasteride or dutasteride and pray for sumtin better in future. cheers

i have a firm belief that in a year if finasteride has not slowed down your hair loss or reversed it you either have way to strong of male pattern baldness and not much hope or dht is not causing the death of your follicles but testerone is. what would be real intestring study to me is if you could eliminate 100 percent of dht in the person balding that didnt respond to finasteride and see if he still loses more hair but keep his test levels the same. i suspect that that he might still lose hair but we may never kno sum1 work on that study.

OK so tell me what do you basically eat and I will tell you what in your diet is bad (for hair) and what is missing there (still talking about hair). Only from my opinion of course

Regarding to Testosterone causing hair loss - there is no such proof and saying this is like saying diet is important when it comes to hairloss - I too have no proofs about this, just speculation Still, there are people with 5AR deficiency and they never get bald, although they definitely have some Testosterone.

 

[Guest]

phish you are wrong i believe. i don't believe someone who eliminates 100% of DHT in their body is likely to ever lose another hair. the pseudohermaphrodites have basically no DHTbecause they have no 5ar2 enzyme.

 

[person]

I think T plays a minor role in hairloss. I may be wrong but don't certain posters always use the argument of some boys who have been castrated and didn't lose a single hair therefore DHT is 100% responsible. Well if you are castrated you will not produce T as well so maybe some peoples hair follicles are super sensitive to T.

 

[hair today gone tomorrow]

I think T plays a minor role in hairloss. I may be wrong but don't certain posters always use the argument of some boys who have been castrated and didn't lose a single hair therefore DHT is 100% responsible. Well if you are castrated you will not produce T as well so maybe some peoples hair follicles are super sensitive to T.

TEST. plays more than a minor role.

 

[tomas99]

OK but could anyone post some study about direct influence of T on hairloss or something like that? Not because I do not believe this (still I dont ) but I would like to educate as much as possible

 

[Guest]

person, testosterone plays a huge INDIRECT role in hair loss. without test, you have no dht. so if you castrate yourself you won't lose more hair basically. but the pseudo boys with no 5ar2 enzyme have roughly normal levels of test but without the enzyme to convert it to DHT, they don't lose hair.

so test is relevant in people who have the 5ar2 enzyme to convert test to dht, but test by itself binds with a much weaker affinity to the androgen receptor than dht.

 

[person]

Nickie I suggest you do your own research on the lasercomb and make your own mind up about it. hair transplant surgeons reccomend their patients who have just had a transplant to get on finasteride, minoxidil and laser. I saw one of the top dermatologists in England a few months back and she said lasers are exciting and we are only just learning about what they can do. I have no idea what Jayman does for a living but I know he is in his early twenties so he could not possibly be a doctor. Nickie, in my opinion we do not have enough information and knowledge about the lasercomb yet. If you watch the follicle five story (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6590766/) you will see the great progress the laser dude made. I personally think you should include it in your regimen because in 2002 it was approved for safety and in 2007 it was approved for hairloss. If it doesn't work the only bad thing is you have wasted $600 but can you really put a price on hairloss? For me no.

 

[person]

person, testosterone plays a huge INDIRECT role in hair loss. without test, you have no dht. so if you castrate yourself you won't lose more hair basically. but the pseudo boys with no 5ar2 enzyme have roughly normal levels of test but without the enzyme to convert it to DHT, they don't lose hair.

so test is relevant in people who have the 5ar2 enzyme to convert test to dht, but test by itself binds with a much weaker affinity to the androgen receptor than dht.

Ok I wasn't sure if these boys you mentioned had T in their bloodstream. But now I know.

 

[person]

person, testosterone plays a huge INDIRECT role in hair loss. without test, you have no dht. so if you castrate yourself you won't lose more hair basically. but the pseudo boys with no 5ar2 enzyme have roughly normal levels of test but without the enzyme to convert it to DHT, they don't lose hair.

so test is relevant in people who have the 5ar2 enzyme to convert test to dht, but test by itself binds with a much weaker affinity to the androgen receptor than dht.

What I meant was, I think T has a minor 'direct' role in hairloss. I am just saying what others are saying - I would like some evidence on this though to substatiate it or rather not.

 

[Guest]

person, testosterone plays a huge INDIRECT role in hair loss. without test, you have no dht. so if you castrate yourself you won't lose more hair basically. but the pseudo boys with no 5ar2 enzyme have roughly normal levels of test but without the enzyme to convert it to DHT, they don't lose hair.

so test is relevant in people who have the 5ar2 enzyme to convert test to dht, but test by itself binds with a much weaker affinity to the androgen receptor than dht.

What I meant was, I think T has a minor 'direct' role in hairloss. I am just saying what others are saying - I would like some evidence on this though to substatiate it or rather not.

Yes it is possible for it to have a minor direct role in hair loss. Like I said, it can bind to the androgen receptor as plain test. How much effect it has exactly is not known, but it has much less of an affinity for the androgen receptor when compared to dht, and also does less damage to the follicles. i fully believe though that if you eliminated 100% of DHT from the body(whether this is wise is questionable), people with male pattern baldness wouldn't lose any more hair, or at least not NOTICE themselves losing any more hair, because the loss would be so small as to be insignificant.