I think male pattern baldness is dependent on the HPA axis

[Hoppi]

Baldie101 - Sorry to hear about all that mate

How is your digestion? (I know I say that too much lol)

Sparx4444 - Why, what's wrong with it?


In general news, I think I have managed to calm my gut completely, meaning my serotonin and histamine production should be much, much lower.

My current diet is - other than hydrogen peroxide - just meat/fish, bamboo shoots (the cooked ones in tins), water with sugar and salt melted into it on the hob and erm... that's pretty much it lol

White rice seems to be ok too, and maybe mashed potatoes and a few other things, but I've decided to keep it simple and stick to the meat and bamboo shoots -centric thing for now. It's inspired by Ray Peat, but obviously it's ridiculously simple just because I want to take it back to basics.

I was doing just white rice and meat, but the fibre content is so low and I want to give the hydrogen peroxide some room in my gut to work. White rice did seem fine though in terms of GI reaction.

On bamboo shoots and meat (and sugar/salt water) though literally my gut is absolutely, completely calm - no gas, no bloat, no nothing. It's eerie lol

 

[squeegee]

I always heard it was because they implant the hair to a different depth?

I think you are on something Hoppi. no jokes.. I know for a fact that DHT cause hardening of the tissue.. Minoxidil is a potent vascular smooth muscle relaxant.

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This just doesn't wash with me...My front has receded, but there are a few hairs that refuse to die...they still are black and when I pluck them, they grow back...they are surrounded by bald scalp...

Same here LOL.

 

[Baldie101]

Baldie101 - Sorry to hear about all that mate

How is your digestion? (I know I say that too much lol)

Lol, that's fine. I know from my parents and me reading med for some years that some body parts being sick can affect the rest of the body aka losing hair.
I would say it's been...quite good in the past. My metabolism is/was like my dad's, fast. This caused me to never get fat no matter what I ate. A year ago when I started on Finesteride and became 30, I started gaining weight. So my metabolism is slower now.
Now to the interesting part. The 1½-2 years I've have been ****ting water/thin :hairy: meaning diarrhea. I do **** something stable some times but most of the time it's thin. The doctor visit will have to wait until I get some free time.

I suspect the pills I take. I didn't take any kinds of pills in the past and used go with fresh food. I noticed that 3-4 years ago that if I take some kind of pill, whether it's medicine or vitamin I get diarrhea. Starting on the normal vitamin pill, later adding Finesteride and now a month ago D-vitamin (since my level was on 5-20 the last 7 years)...may have something to do with it. I also noticed that my stomach can't handle stuff like it used to in the old days. I'm Asian of origin meaning I should be able to handle chili but I can't do that anymore. So no eating chili for me Guess I'm getting old

Now related to the stress part: I just remembered that when I started to lose hair I did have a depression which made the losing worse. Quite sure my stress level wasn't low when I went through that. :tongue:

This just doesn't wash with me...My front has receded, but there are a few hairs that refuse to die...they still are black and when I pluck them, they grow back...they are surrounded by bald scalp...

Oh, oh, oh, they are long and thick as when your hair was normal, right? I got those too but in my case I'm not bald in the area around them. I got hair but it's tiny hairs that won't grow longer than 1mm and get thick. They are there to give me false hope and despair since you can only see those tiny hair if you look damn close up on the scalp.

 

[salar_s]

hi dudes
I am 21 y/o male and i suffered form hair loss since i was 13,14.
i know my situation is weird ,but i need your help,because i am in depression and when i visit dermatoligist ,he prescribes me finastride ,but it is more different form male pattern baldness,because no one suffered form male pattern baldness in my family (not father and not mother side).from my childhood i had severe stress and anixety because if my family sturggles and situations like that.and i lost lot of my hair in side and back of the scalp and my sideburns hair become less and less ,my beard is like my sideburns
maybe it is mineral deficiency but i can not know what mineral.
PLZ help me,PLZ

 

[5rugrats9]

Salar, stress (and depression means lots of stress and that your HTPA axis is out of whack) is a known and potent hair killer. Learn to release stress through exercise (including stretching) and by fixing behavioural habits, in addition to replenishing diet and minerals. Try to learn about stress reducing herbs. You probably have weakened adrenals so take vitamin-C. Ensure good dietary zinc intake via meats, eggs. Good quality liver is great for minerals and vitamins. Ensure you are moderate in sexual habits, as that too adversely impacts hormonal system. Comb your hair with a wooden or boar brush. Massage scalp sometimes with essential oils.

What I have recommended are natural methods. If you should incorporate them in your lifestyle, they will stand you in good stead. You can combine these things with any other recommendations from other members. Above all, do whatever it takes to reduce stress in your life, change your attitudes to deal with it too. And don't let the thought of hair loss increase your stress levels. Take steps to address hair loss, and be merry. Good luck, and be optimistic about this.

 

[Sparky4444]

you know what guys, this is fun to engage in but male pattern baldness hairloss is a condition, biochemical process, systemic and targeted...male pattern baldness is not an environmentally induced process...not to discount the advice given here, it's good in general for life...but for hair, this isn't it...

 

[struggle]

Hi Toppi, i've been suffering from non optima diggestions lately. This month it was really bad, I had 3 days where I ****ted a lot of times, it was actual diarrea, but I think this was a punctual virus, but on average my digestions aren't optimal, now it got better again, but as I said, it's not perfect.

What is your take on topical cetirizine? I can buy it real cheap in liquid form. Im considering using it since it worked for some people. I haven't started yet with finasteride/minoxidil (im going to take finasteride topically), my hair is approaching NW2 status so I need to act soon, but first I need my bloodworks. What about 3 ml of cetirizine weekly? Besides inhibiting PGD2 on the scalp, if there is systemic absortion who cares? you are reducing histamine in any case, and since it's a second generation antihistaminic it shouldn't present any problems. I would take this at night after shower, and focus on the itchy areas (im having really annoying itchyness lately, I hope cetirizine helps on there)

Is there anything I should consider for my bloodwork besides the usual? (test, dht, estrogens..). Is there a way to know your histamine and serotonin levels in a bloodwork?

Thanks

 

[Hoppi]

Heya guys sorry I went quiet

Yeah as I understand serotonin is the hormone that regulates things like water entering the GI system, probably mainly the large intestine. I believe it does that to move the food along faster, if the body perceives the food as a problem.

So, if you have regular diarrhea, one would imagine that could cause balding due to the HPA stimulation by the elevated serotonin.

I'm still learning too, but it does seem to fit together pretty well.

As for histamine and antihistamines like cetirizine, I don't understand how they would work topically. I was under the impression that if histamine played a role in male pattern baldness it would be via stimulation of the HPA axis, like serotonin.

It is true that histamine is involved in inflammatory responses, but I think the inflammation is due to infection such as dandruff.

Muscle relaxants on the back and sides of the head may have a chance of stopping male pattern baldness as they might sufficiently relax the galea muscles.

Stress is like poison for hair in terms of the hormonal effect via the HPA axis, but having said that I was stressed for years and it was only when my gut started playing up that I began to lose hair, so the body usually seems to be able to take a lot of stress before it really starts throwing things out of whack.

 

[benjt]

I object.

I am most laid-back and relaxed, I don't feel stressed at all (yes, even though I suffer from male pattern baldness - can't change it anyway, just trying my best to keep them). Still, they're going down at a very fast pace.

My digestion is in a very good state. I eat healthy and not too much meat. I don't eat junk food at all, and drink only water and fruit juice.

 

[struggle]

Heya guys sorry I went quiet

Yeah as I understand serotonin is the hormone that regulates things like water entering the GI system, probably mainly the large intestine. I believe it does that to move the food along faster, if the body perceives the food as a problem.

So, if you have regular diarrhea, one would imagine that could cause balding due to the HPA stimulation by the elevated serotonin.

I'm still learning too, but it does seem to fit together pretty well.

As for histamine and antihistamines like cetirizine, I don't understand how they would work topically. I was under the impression that if histamine played a role in male pattern baldness it would be via stimulation of the HPA axis, like serotonin.

It is true that histamine is involved in inflammatory responses, but I think the inflammation is due to infection such as dandruff.

Muscle relaxants on the back and sides of the head may have a chance of stopping male pattern baldness as they might sufficiently relax the galea muscles.

Stress is like poison for hair in terms of the hormonal effect via the HPA axis, but having said that I was stressed for years and it was only when my gut started playing up that I began to lose hair, so the body usually seems to be able to take a lot of stress before it really starts throwing things out of whack.

Well word around town cetirizine lowers PDG2 and works against greasy hair too.

 

[Hoppi]

benjt - I never said that IBS or even HPA axis stimulation are the ONLY paths to male pattern baldness. For example, someone taking supplementary DHT or any natural or synthetic supplement/drug that affects androgens might cause it as well.

It may be simple but it's not THAT simple! hehe

struggle - Strange it would work against greasy hair as well! I didn't think histamine had anything to do with oil production


I also had a weird thought regarding my gut.

Around the time my IBS started (in fact not long before) I ate this proper dodgy sandwich. It was a day out of date and had been sitting in a not-very-cold fridge and had chicken in it, and the packaging was all puffy (sign of bacterial growth).

But... I was dumb back then and I ate it anyway.

Perhaps I am experiencing the wrath of whatever bugs were in that sandwich

It's possible.

 

[struggle]

benjt - I never said that IBS or even HPA axis stimulation are the ONLY paths to male pattern baldness. For example, someone taking supplementary DHT or any natural or synthetic supplement/drug that affects androgens might cause it as well.

It may be simple but it's not THAT simple! hehe

struggle - Strange it would work against greasy hair as well! I didn't think histamine had anything to do with oil production


I also had a weird thought regarding my gut.

Around the time my IBS started (in fact not long before) I ate this proper dodgy sandwich. It was a day out of date and had been sitting in a not-very-cold fridge and had chicken in it, and the packaging was all puffy (sign of bacterial growth).

But... I was dumb back then and I ate it anyway.

Perhaps I am experiencing the wrath of whatever bugs were in that sandwich

It's possible.

Some people has experienced a relaxed scalp by removing itchiness with cetirizine too, I think it' worth the try. I may try it soon myself. Also Im sure most people with hairloss have high histamine levels too.

 

[Hoppi]

Some people has experienced a relaxed scalp by removing itchiness with cetirizine too, I think it' worth the try. I may try it soon myself. Also Im sure most people with hairloss have high histamine levels too.

Oh yeah I agree, but I think the histamine is in response to the infection resultant of overactive sebaceous glands.

I mean... why would the body just attack its own hair follicles.. especially when many people with male pattern baldness have dandruff.

I dunno though, I mean it might help

 

[ladysmanfelpz]

No wonder all the old guys I see with full Norwood are all bums.

So true Resu. I made a post about this, but think I deleted it as I thought I sounded insane. We've all heard it before that stress causes hairloss, but it is extremely difficult to reduce stress and for some to identify what true stress is. My male pattern baldness started early and same with my brother so I know it is genetic for us as much of my family is bald as well, but I am making it a point to reduce stress the rest of my life. I see it all the time to resu and even made it a point to show my brother as we pulled up to multiple intersections and near all the bums, no matter what age, had full heads of thick, usually long hair. My post was about mindset as I honestly think liberal, free-spirited people have better hair than the rest. The people that don't give a **** about the world and whats going on in it show it through their hair. I completely believe their is truth in stereotypes, and guess what the stereotype is for bald men? That they are wise. I think genes in intelligence and male pattern baldness must be linked. Just look at how many bald CEO's and especially bald doctors their are. The typical image of a doctor is a slim built guy with a small forehead and sloped skull with hair only on the sides of his head. There is something more to "hippy hair" rather than just declaring yourself a hippy and growing your hair out. I go to a very liberal school in a small liberal town, and I have never seen so many full thick heads of hair in my life. Just look at Stephen Colbert compared to Jon Stewart. Both full Norwood's but Colbert had his straight conservative looking cut, while Stewart has thick flowing locks. Its no wonder the only friend in my clique who turned liberal has a full Norwood and the thickest hair of all of us.

 

[Jacob]

Long hair hides balding/thinning though. There are plenty of balding bums.

Liberal vs Conservative? I'm seeing no connection there either. Reagan..Gingrich...etc. Doctors and Ceo's...the Docs I've been seeing, and it's a lot of 'em thanks to a friend of ours, all have thick heads of hair. Of course there are balding ones as well. Same with CEO's.

 

[squeegee]

Even apes and monkeys go bald..lol in captivity or not!

 

[Hoppi]

So true Resu. I made a post about this, but think I deleted it as I thought I sounded insane. We've all heard it before that stress causes hairloss, but it is extremely difficult to reduce stress and for some to identify what true stress is. My male pattern baldness started early and same with my brother so I know it is genetic for us as much of my family is bald as well, but I am making it a point to reduce stress the rest of my life. I see it all the time to resu and even made it a point to show my brother as we pulled up to multiple intersections and near all the bums, no matter what age, had full heads of thick, usually long hair. My post was about mindset as I honestly think liberal, free-spirited people have better hair than the rest. The people that don't give a **** about the world and whats going on in it show it through their hair. I completely believe their is truth in stereotypes, and guess what the stereotype is for bald men? That they are wise. I think genes in intelligence and male pattern baldness must be linked. Just look at how many bald CEO's and especially bald doctors their are. The typical image of a doctor is a slim built guy with a small forehead and sloped skull with hair only on the sides of his head. There is something more to "hippy hair" rather than just declaring yourself a hippy and growing your hair out. I go to a very liberal school in a small liberal town, and I have never seen so many full thick heads of hair in my life. Just look at Stephen Colbert compared to Jon Stewart. Both full Norwood's but Colbert had his straight conservative looking cut, while Stewart has thick flowing locks. Its no wonder the only friend in my clique who turned liberal has a full Norwood and the thickest hair of all of us.

I do think you have a point (HPA axis stimulation via psychological stress)... HOWEVER.

Do remember that "bums" may also decrease HPA axis due to eating less. If you eat less your GI system will be less agitated and therefore release less serotonin and histamine and stimulate the HPA axis less.

Remember that the human stress response is not ONLY stimulated by psychological stress, that's a huge, huge part of this IMO

Even apes and monkeys go bald..lol in captivity or not!

Well, just because they're other primates doesn't mean they aren't under physical or psychological stress

 

[bushbush]

you know what guys, this is fun to engage in but male pattern baldness hairloss is a condition, biochemical process, systemic and targeted...male pattern baldness is not an environmentally induced process...not to discount the advice given here, it's good in general for life...but for hair, this isn't it...

This. There is so much pseudoscience going on in this thread it is unreal.

 

[Hoppi]

Ok I have some great stuff to report! I have done some reading.. I'll just share the entire post I made here:

I'm 95% sure that IBS leads to hair loss via the 5-HT2C receptor, because that's the serotonin receptor that activates the HPA axis eventually leading to Androgenetic Alopecia after serotonin has been increased by IBS/IBD (eg dysbiosis).

I've looked into the other receptors and hormones including histamine.

I am very confident (but not 100% positive) that if we (partially) block this receptor for those with Androgenetic Alopecia after IBS, their hair loss will stop and I think their health will improve. However of course the underlying gut issue is still there and will need treatment to boost health further.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-HT2C_receptor

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17596444

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2777260

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0016377


Hoppi


EDIT --

http://www.google.com/search?q=natural+5-ht2c+antagonist

Obviously feel free to search for drugs too. Apparently 5-ht2a agonists can have the OPPOSITE effect, I'd imagine due to reducing a competing receptor. It's complicated though but I personally can't see the difference being huge.

So far I am hearing about agomelatine, kudzu (puerarin), curcumin and possibly St John's Wort as at the very least 5-ht2c antagonists.

http://www.iherb.com/product-reviews/Kudzu-450-mg-90-Veggie-Caps/5407

"The puerarin in Kudzu is a natural 5-HT2C Antagonist. It is reported that Saint Johns wort also works at 5-HT2C (and others). May help with some types of depression. This is one of the receptors involved in male erection. I use it to block an over stimulation of 5Ht2C. Seems to work well in that regard."

http://herbs.mxf.yuku.com/topic/4428816

As for pseudoscience... well, maybe, but you don't have to listen if you don't want to

Plenty of other threads to read!