I think androgenic hair loss is reversible (edited)

[CCS]

I think people are not responding to my post because it is too long, or not enough proof. Let me summarize.

***I think scalp estrogen can reverse negative growth factors from DHT.
I think this because
1. Female hair loss is generally reversible, and
2. dutasteride 2.5mg did so much better than the others, and probably caused by far the most estrogen to form.
I believe dutasteride 2.5mg would continue to regrow more hair year after year, but it would be better to use one of the many topical 5ar1 inhibitors in combination with finasteride.

***I think the biggest immediate hormonal factors affecting hair loss are (biggest to smallest)
A. DHT produced in the follicle.
B. Follicle and scalp Estrogen levels (which are determined by available testosterone)
C. DHT spillage from nearby sebum glands.
Finasteride has been proven to reduce fibrosis. This is because fibrosis and immunological factors are triggered by the hormonal pathway. The immune system uses free radicals to attack the follicle, and the free radicals also take NO (a growth factor) and turn it into a worse free radical. While these immunological factors seem big, they are caused hormonally, and topical anti-oxidants do help. Many are also stimulants, 5ar blockers, or AR blockers, or estrogen mimickers.

1. Female hair loss:
A. Female hair loss occurs during pregnancy and menopause usually, and happens when estrogen levels fluctuate.
B. Testosterone turning to DHT can also reduce available local testosterone for making estrogen.
C. Estrogen therapy or topical estrogen helps both men and women, though men get side effects.
D. If DHT took years to put out negative growth factors, estrogen may take years to undo it.

2. Interpreting Dutasteride PhaseII results:
A. If follicle DHT were the only big factor, then what is the difference between 98.5% and 99.X precent 5ar2 inhibition, and why does 2.5mg so outperform 0.5mg? The researchers said that visually Proscar, 0.1, and 0.5mg looked the same, but 2.5mg looked noticeably better.
B. finasteride and dutasteride 0.5mg reduced scalp DHT 40-55%. Not much difference, as backed by 1 year mark studies that show all but maybe 2.5mg are equal. 2.5mg reduced it 85%. That leaves a lot more testosterone than can be aromatized locally into estrogen, for a much better effect.

 

[CCS]

I don't think we can topically apply estrogen without side effects. But if we can locally increase testosterone at the cost of DHT, the local aromatase can make its own estrogen. And DHT is quickly broken down in the blood, whereas testosterone is not. And 2/3 of the DHT in the scalp is made by 5ar1.

dutasteride 2.5mg increased scalp testosterone 254%. Some of you might not believe that number, but when you realize that over 2/3 of scalp testosterone is turned to DHT, and dutasteride 2.5mg stopped 85% of 5ar1 and all of 5ar2, the number is very believeable. And I bet with over 3x as much testosterone available, the scalp had more estrogen production too.

dutasteride 2.5mg is expensive and I just don't want to change my 5ar1 levels in nerves by that much, reported side effects or not. But with oral finasteride, and topical white curcumin, maybe we can get similar local effects.

 

[blaze]

Are you sure curcumin is a 5AR inhibitor? I thought it just had anti-inflammatory actions, as well as being an anti-oxient.

 

[CCS]

Re: I think androgenic hair loss may be reversible

Yes, it definitely seemed that way in a hampster flank organ test where it inhibited growth by 80% in the presence of testosterone. I want to know how to maximize absoption. I have showers and retin-A. Any other ideas? Dermaroller is out.

 

[liquidfirex]

Re: I think androgenic hair loss may be reversible

I personally believe estrogen plays a very big role in hairloss, one that has yet to be understood.

 

[CCS]

Re: I think androgenic hair loss may be reversible

I think people are not responding to my post because it is too long, or not enough proof. Let me summarize.

***I think scalp estrogen can reverse negative growth factors from DHT.
I think this because
1. Female hair loss is generally reversible, and
2. dutasteride 2.5mg did so much better than the others, and probably caused by far the most estrogen to form.
I believe dutasteride 2.5mg would continue to regrow more hair year after year, but it would be better to use one of the many topical 5ar1 inhibitors in combination with finasteride.

***I think the biggest immediate hormonal factors affecting hair loss are (biggest to smallest)
A. DHT produced in the follicle.
B. Follicle and scalp Estrogen levels (which are determined by available testosterone)
C. DHT spillage from nearby sebum glands.
(serum DHT almost does not matter at all)

1. Female hair loss:
A. Female hair loss occurs during pregnancy and menopause usually, and happens when estrogen levels fluctuate.
B. Testosterone turning to DHT can also reduce available local testosterone for making estrogen.
C. Estrogen therapy or topical estrogen helps both men and women, though men get side effects.
D. If DHT took years to put out negative growth factors, estrogen may take years to undo it.

2. Interpreting Dutasteride PhaseII results:
A. If follicle DHT were the only big factor, then what is the difference between 98.5% and 99.X precent 5ar2 inhibition, and why does 2.5mg so outperform 0.5mg? The researchers said that visually Proscar, 0.1, and 0.5mg looked the same, but 2.5mg looked noticeably better.
B. finasteride and dutasteride 0.5mg reduced scalp DHT 40-55%. Not much difference. 2.5mg reduced it 85%. That leaves a lot more testosterone than can be aromatized locally into estrogen, for a much better effect.

 

[liquidfirex]

This may or may not be relevant to the conversation:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... stractPlus
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... stractPlus
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... stractPlus

Doesn't really do much but confuse, but figured I'd throw it out there.

Trying to find out if DIM raises beta or alpha estrogen... can't seem to figure it out, any help?

 

[blaze]

What your suggesting CCS seems plausable. However do transexuals, who take both anti-androgens and estrogen regrow lost hair?

Michael Barry has done a little research in regards to this(transexuals and hairloss), he will probably know.

 

[CCS]

This may or may not be relevant to the conversation:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... stractPlus
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... stractPlus
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... stractPlus

Doesn't really do much but confuse, but figured I'd throw it out there.

Trying to find out if DIM raises beta or alpha estrogen... can't seem to figure it out, any help?

Good finds.
Looking at the first one:
Very strange that estrogen grew hair on the back of mice. Human women have very little hair on their bodies, and lots of estrogen. Of course humans mostly have hair on their heads, and animals have FUR all over there bodies, so maybe we can't assume them to be the same. If human scalp hair is different from human body hair, who knows what else is different. The study did say that male mice body hair responded differently than female mouse body hair too.
The only thing I can see from this is that estrogen did have a large affect at least on these mice.

I'll read the other ones in a bit. BTW, the two routes were topical solution and injection, that big word they used. Dictionary.com.

 

[CCS]

What your suggesting CCS seems plausable. However do transexuals, who take both anti-androgens and estrogen regrow lost hair?

Michael Barry has done a little research in regards to this(transexuals and hairloss), he will probably know.

Good thinking, though even that is not a direct comparison:

trans
Estrogen levels: maybe the same locally if we take lots of dutasteride?
Testosterone: much lower than ours, though we have AR blockers
Androgen Receptors: just as bad
DHT levels: Their scalp levels are lower from less testosterone, but maybe
without finasteride they have more.

So if the transexuals have reduced their testosterone by 90%, and take enough estrogen to have at least average female levels, and are taking finasteride, and a mild topical androgen receptor blocker like spironolactone, and still don't regrow hair, then my idea is wrong.

 

[mulder]

What about using phytoestrogens topically as well? Isoflavones from soy and clover, lignans from tree barks and flax seeds and pumpkin seeds.

 

[Guest]

I want a scalp transplant from a dead man who didn't bald.

 

[Artista]

So CCS, if you were a 42 y/o chic desperate to hang on and regrow some hair doing the following:

Rogaine foam 5% 2x/day since last Nov
Fincar 2.5 mg since Aug
Yasmin
Oral spironolactone 200mg since Jan, started at 150 last Nov

What would you do when you see nothing seems to be helping and time is up? Mix in dutas to rotate with fincar like every other day or something?

 

[abcdefg]

How do we know finasteride doesnt help in part because because of the much higher estrogen and not the much lower dht? How can we seperate there effects? Do the hermaphradites have higher then normal estrogen or unusual estrogen patterns?

 

[liquidfirex]

To the user above, you hit the nail on the head. My sudden hairloss (very very sudden and completely diffuse) was triggered by high levels of B5 intake. I have been researching for YEARS as to why this happened, as my DHT levels did not rise. As well, some people don't get hairloss with large amounts of B5. I take propecia and it helps me, but not others who lost their hair because of B5, so I think the reason has all to do with estrogen.

 

[abcdefg]

Well the thing is it seems like it could. How can we say for sure either way what one is actually helping? How do we know the reason most men bald and most women dont isnt that they have low androgens but high estrogen. Does science even know what estrogen does? The most unsettling thing to me that prevents me from taking propecia or most other prescription medications is it doesnt seem like science knows whats going on with a lot of this. All these hormones I dont think science really understands them that well in relation to all the other series of events and how they all tie together. I mean why does estrogen change and what does it do on say cancer rates? science cant correlate what that is without testing or studying it for years.

 

[RaginDemon]

even you catch your male pattern baldness early and start on effective treatment, I dont think its possible to get your hair back to pre-male pattern baldness stage.

 

[Bryan]

This may or may not be relevant to the conversation:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... stractPlus
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... stractPlus
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... stractPlus

Doesn't really do much but confuse, but figured I'd throw it out there.

Why do you think those studies "confuse"? They fit-in just fine with the new paradigm that estrogen has site-specific effects on hair follicles; specifically, that it SUPPRESSES the growth of body-hair, and ENHANCES the growth of balding human scalp hair.

 

[Guest]

Bryan - my current regimen - dutasteride, nizoral, and soon minoxidil with ret A.

Want more SCALP DHT suppressed do you suggest topical estrogen or spironolactone? Pick one. Or something else.

 

[Bryan]

What your suggesting CCS seems plausable. However do transexuals, who take both anti-androgens and estrogen regrow lost hair?

As has been discussed REPEATEDLY on alt.baldspot over the last several years: even complete androgen ablation does not result in full regrowth of all lost hair. Once your hair is gone, it's pretty much gone, except for what you may be able to get back by a comprehensive program that includes not only antiandrogens, but also powerful growth stimulators. The earlier you start, of course, the better.

None of this stuff is new; it's basic Hairloss 101. I'm surprised you even have to ask such a question.