I hate going bald....lol...I'm too young!

[pharoh]

Hey

Thats the kinda routine I'm thinking about. I'm only 21 and my hairloss probably started around the age of 17, although due to always having a naturally 'receded' hairline its only become noticeable last couple of years. Last 6 months I've shed at a really fast rate its scary, take a look at my pics in the story section

I am curently on 1mg finasteride a day (for nearly a month now) also using nizoral, t-gel and also pantene pro-v as a normal shampoo and it seems reasonable.
I am still thinning out like hell, not that I actually noticing shedding like most guys because I always keep my hair buzzed short.

I am also planning to start minoxidil 5% soonish though have always been a little apprehensive about starting it for various reasons. However when I do start it I will only be using it once a day - I figure once a day is better than not at all and it should hopefully help. And as along as you have got finasteride and nizoral in you regimen then it sounds good to me and if you are a resonder you should see some form of success

good luck to you

 

[Kramer3]

Minoxdil isn't nearly as effective if you only do it once per night. I tried that for the initial six months (my denial phase) and didn't see any regrowth or even maintenance. Using it twice a day everyday makes a difference.

In response to your initial genetic therapy discussion i have to agree as well that certain aspects of it will be very appealing. But to what extent? If like you said we all had access to this innovative technology it would theoritcally be amazing. Girls would have nicer bodies; which i would enjoy. All of us guys wouldn't be stuck on a forum despertely trying to figure out a way to halt our impending baldness. But... at what point can we stop and say, woah were going a little too far here. What makes everyone unique is their little imperfections that enable them to differentiate themselves from one another. If people started using gene therapy to the extent in which you suggested then masses would all attempt to better themsleves. In certain instances such as terminant diseases, or hair loss, etc... this would be exceptable. But in general, hell no. Do you want a population where everyone looks the same. Not to mention the implications of trying to alter genes to make yourself generally look better. We might as well find the best looking and smartest people and start cloning them until everyone looks identical and acts identical to them. The reason why gene therapy is going to be restrained from public use is because people like you who would abuse it. It's a very precarious technology and although i do hope that they develop something to help out hair loss i would never wish that people would be able to use it like you suggested. I'm sorry to bring this discussion into a forum but after reading your post i was compelled to respond.

Good luck on your new regimen.. you should respond well

 

[x5o]

Kramer wrote, "What makes everyone unique is their little imperfections.", as an argument against widespread use of gentic engineering. Oh my God Kramer!, tell it to the blind or deaf guy or girl. Tell it to the morbidly obese kid or adult who just can't keep the weight off. Tell it the girl who is just plain lacking in the physical attributes that would make her desirable to men. Or the guy who rarely if ever gets a date because of his looks. Tell it to the parents of the kids who catch the "short" bus each day. Tell me if it offered you an absolute cure for baldness that you wouldn't mortgage your house to get it. I could go on, but you get the point.

Aside from hair loss you are suffering from "future shock". Years ago mainstream society had similar feelings about plastic surgery. Takes awhile to get used to radical new things. And genetic manipulation is certainly one of the most radical things to ever hit the medical field.

In regard to what you and Gardener feel about the difficulties involved in such therapies you both are very much off base. It is not nearly as difficult as you two think. Viruses being introduced into the body? Tiny robots (nano-technology)? That is not how the genes will be manipulated. They will be reprogrammed without the use of the things you mentioned. What is difficult is the decoding. Figuring out which gene controls what. That is where the real difficulty exsists. Can't be to careful here either. One mistake and you might grow a third eye somewhere. Powerful stuff. Definitely need to know exactly how you will affect the body before you manipulate a particlular gene. Science fiction? Nope. It's here. Only real question is whether or not it will be perfected and available to the general population within our lifetimes.

 

[Kramer3]

X50, When i say little imperfections i'm not referring to deafness, blindness, morbid obesity, or anyone else with genetic defects. If those in your mind constitutes "little imperfections" then how imperfect do you think our world is? What i am referring to is attributes such as bigger eyes, a rounder chin, a slight pertruding stomach. You get the picture. The inherent problem with gene therapy doesn't lie in people that wish to see or hear, it lies in people that believe that they can alter themselves just a little bit to make themselves more attractive. Their's a thin line in the sand when considering gene therapy and the most difficult problem is going to be determining what crosses that line and what doesnt.

You say

"Let everyone have a high IQ. Only those who have a natural born advantage of looks or high IQ would complain because the playing field would be leveled"

As far as intellect is concerned although their might be certain genes which would enable one to learn better, the vast majority of people become smart not soley based on their predispostion but rather on their upbringing and the effort they exerted when they were a child. I have a friend who is by no means naturally bright at all but through his assidous work efforts has become one of the smartest people i know. The only reason those people with a high IQ might complain is become some lazy bastard thinks he can make up for all of those years sitting on his *** and watching tv, by altering his genes. To that guy, i say go get a library card and check out some books.

If the world becomes what you wish it to be, then were all going to be ingenuously similar replicas of people that we believe to be beautiful.

 

[x5o]

Mr. Kramer, Mr. Kramer..............

Where to begin??

Well, first of all I do not think what I listed were little imperfections. But keep in mind that it is very subjective what constitutes a little imperfection. Most, of course, could agree that horrible birth defects (eg. missing limbs) are more than little imperfections, however, many thngs, especially those dealing with looks and performance (intellectual or otherwise) would draw hot debate regarding there importance. I say, let 'em debate while I and others who are like minded get better looking, smarter, and hairier ! I, personally, do not want anyone telling me how bright white is to bright white for my teeth, how much hair I should have on my head, or how tan my skin should be or how high my IQ can be. You must be really good looking and smart or enjoy being regulated. Not me pal, on either count.

Getting back to your distinguishing between what should and shouldn't be allowed in genetic manipulation I find it interesting that you would include hair loss and terminal illness in the same vein. I, of course, know why because I suffer from hair loss too, however, many would not. The issue of what is important enough to use gene therapy for can be extremely subjective. You mentioned in your post some things you thought to be insignificant and not worthy of gene therapy to correct. You mentioned protruding stomachs, big chins, and big eyes (did you see and alien lately or watch to much Jay Leno?). Many would throw hair loss in with those. Unless you suffer from the things you mentioned who are you to say that they are insignificant things unworthy of gene manipulation? Even if you did have those features you still couldn't speak for other people who had them as well. And while we are on the subject, who is anyone to say that any ailment is not worthy? Again, let the individual decide.

What will you lobby for next?..................Getting rid of supplements that might help an individual get bigger at the gym? Getting rid of supplements and drugs that might improve memory? Getting rid of my Crest White Strips because they make an "insignificant" thing like whiter teeth possible? Gene therapy has the exact same goal as pharmaceuticals and supplements.............improved health, wellbeing and performance. It just does a better job.

Gene therapy is not a nefarious thing. It WILL be the gold standard of medicine. Your assumptions about everyone looking the same are simply nonsense. Your remarks about intelligence are also flawed. IQ is predetermined at birth by, yes, your genes. And it does have a lot to do with how you are able to assimilate the knowledge that you are exposed to in school, the library and everyday life. Go tell a person with a 65 IQ to go bust there *** at school or in a library and get real "smart". Aint happenin' buddy! There is already talk about micro chip implantation into the human brain to add knowledge. Are you going to "belly ache" that "Joe Whoever" got some knowledge this way? Who cares if he did? Not me. Hell if I had the benefit of "smart" genes or a micro chip I would have known that the friend you made reference to in your post had *diligent* work efforts. I would not have had to look up the word assiduous that you used. For that matter you too could benefit from the technology we are discussing as you spelled the word wrong.

Come on Kramer, give in. This technology that we debate is a good thing. It is, very simply put, just advanced medicine.

 

[Kramer3]

X50:
Ohh wouldn't it ever be soo great if we could eventually live in the magical world that you have so passionately depicted for us. Isn't gene therapy simply the cure too all of our little inhibitions? You seem to have this fantasy that when gene therapy comes out that it will be easily-accessible to the public and that everyone will reap from its benefits. This could be in part the aspect of gene therapy that your most disillusioned with. How many people do you know that could afford plastic surgery by an acclaimed surgeon? what makes you believe that gene therapy is going to be any cheaper? If gene therapy does become as prominent as you suggest then do you know who will be the only ones to benefit? The people that are already rich, smart, and good looking and who cannot help but long to be better off. While the poor mass of people with inferior intelligence and physical flaws are left in the dust because they dont have enough cash to ditch out for gene therapy. If anyone benefits from this it won't be the person with the 65 IQ because the chances are anyone with an IQ that low will be lucky enough to save up for the next meal, let alone gene therapy. If you honestly think that people have a predetermined fate, your sorely wrong. I realize that genes code for every aspect of us, but our environment in certain instances can have a more dramatic effect upon our development. I gurantee you that if that child with a 65 IQ had been nurtured, sent to private schools his entire life and recieved the proper guidance that he would be much smarter. Granted there may be a limit to how bright he'll be able to become.

I know its rather vain of me to include hair loss into this discussion but the reason why i believe that it would be something worth pursuing in gene therapy is that it'd be the simplest to change. How can you make someone's eyes smaller once they've already developed without impinging on them the risk that they may never see again? With hair loss their isn't nearly as many forseeable risks and it's something that everyone would concede could only help. Some people may like bigger eyes, no one likes being bald.

I'm not lobbying for anything, all i'm trying to do is explain to you that gene therapy isn't going to be the ultimate cure to everything like you seem to think it will be. Tell me something, will supplements help you if you don't work out? As i said before there are certain things that you can do to enhance yourself and their other things you just cant. It is a thin line. By taking the role of God into your hands the risks may become more then we can bear. What are you going to be endorsing next, finding the most appealing people in the world and cloning them, so that we can all be them. You are the way you are man, if your so disappointed with the way you turned out then you should seek someone to help boost your confidence. Its natural to want to alter certain components of yourself but intelligence and personality, should never be one of them.

ps. I'm sorry if my spelling is inaccurate for certain words, i dont have the time to revise my posts.

 

[Hairless Potter]

Help! Help! Runaway post! :freaked2:

 

[The Gardener]

Have any of you seen the movie Gattaca? It was fascinating, addresses this issue. Basically, it is set in a future time where genetic engineering was commonplace. When one had a baby, they would choose the certain genetic "add ons" like high intelligence, aversion to certain diseases, or aptitude in certain skills. Of course, all these add ons came at a price, since of course getting the genetic material of a genius into your baby's DNA has its costs, and there is a market for it.

Well, there developed a second class of citizens who were naturally born, i.e. the result of natural genetic combinations that took place when two people screwed (usually the result of clandestine relationships, ahem) and neither of the two parents wanted to spend the money on add ons or could not afford them. The protagonist of the story is just such a man. And he had a dream of being a spaceship captain.

Well, the spaceship firms of course only chose genetically excellent humans to be captains. So, for the entire movie, this guy does whatever he has to, makes deals to steal urine and blood samples from genetically perfect people for example, to get himself into the spaceship firm, in short he fools the system by hook and crook. The point being that despite his genetic imperfection in tangible terms, he had intangible skills (in his case, determination and drive!) that, in effect, made him come out on top of all of his genetically perfect competitors for the position.

Additionally, there is a counterpoint side-story in the movie. The genetically perfect person from whom he bought blood and urine to pass the genetics tests ended up being suicidal. Despite this person's genetic perfection, he was lazy and NOT determined because he relied on his privileged genetic makeup to get him through life.

It is a slow and plodding, but fascinating movie. I recommend it for all who are interested in the subject.

 

[x5o]

I'll just address Kramers post real quick, one by one, here goes..............

It would be great if we could live in a magical world minus disease, defects, depression, and yes.........hair loss.

Gene therapy is not the cure for everything. I never said that.

I am not *disillusioned* with any aspect of gene therapy. Your writing suggests that you believe me to be *illusioned* with gene therapy. If you were to convince me that you were correct about such technology, than you might say I was *disillusioned*. <that won't happen though!

No, quite the opposite, I do not think that it will be easily accessible to the general population.

I do believe I stated in an earlier post that road blocks would exist to the mainstream use of gene therapy. I do not believe it will be cheap initially, as our capitalist society certainly has its share of profiteers.

You mention a poor mass of people with inferior intelligence and physical flaws being left in the dust..................I don't know if they exist in masses as you suggest, but, regardless of their numbers they are left in the dust now, without genetic engineering being in use.

I never said people have a pre-determined fate. I do not believe that at all. Determination and sheer will account for a great deal. <Hey, we agree on something! :nod:

I don't think your inclusion of hair loss was vain of you at all.

I don't think certain physical traits (like eyes) can be changed by gene therapy once the person is formed. Gene therapy will most dramatically effect the fetus prior to such attributes forming.

Contrary to what you wrote, some people like being bald. Albeit probably a nominal number. Not everyone who shaves their head bald has a hair loss problem.

I do not think gene therapy will be the "ultimate cure" as you stated.

Supplements will help to a certain extent even if you don't work out. If I did an 8 week cycle of testosterone and sat on the couch and drank protien all day, I would still gain muscle mass. That is a fact, however, most certainly it would be nothing compared to what the gains would be if I worked out during that cycle.

I do not think that gene therapy = playing God.

You and this cloning thing! No, No, No again. I have already addressed this. I don't know why you are so stuck on this irrational fear of a world of clones.

I am not that disappointed with the way I turned out. I think most everyone, no matter who they are could give you a list of things they would love to change about themselves.

I frequently seek out ways to boost my confidence. I think most of us do. Certainly it is not an unhealthy thing to do. It's human nature.

You say one should never try to alter their personality or intelligence. Wow, you are definitely the minority on that one. Self help/improvement books sell by the millions. Now nutritional supplements claim to enhance memory and moods - they sell like hot cakes. Pharmaceutical companies are making millions off of anti-depressants now being pushed as "social anxiety" drugs. That is just a fancy way of saying they can alter your personality. I earned a degree to become more "intelligent". I and many others have consumed alcoholic beverages to alter our personalities and become more "social".
Point being.........People try to alter their intelligence and personality all the time. Been going on probably since the begining of time.

Please don't apologize for misspelling words (I'm sure I have a few typos and misspellings myself.) I enjoy the debate.

 

[Kramer3]

X50:

This debate could go on forever. I'm not one that concedes that my perspective is wrong unless someone provides substantial evidence, which could never happen for a topic such as this. I will though respond to your statements just for the sake of clarification.

I didn't really mean that you were disillusioned with gene therapy in the terms that you presented. What i meant was that you expect that it will be able to alter things that it will not be able to. How can you know at birth what your babies eyes will look like when they fully develop? You can't. Therefore you cannot attempt to use gene therapy to change them. There is a very limited number of attributes that aren't dependant on environmental development.

I'm not stuck on the clones issue, i was just insinuating that the train of thought you were expressing is the same perspective that could eventually lead to something that dramatic.

In regards to altering your personality and intelligence, people don't neccessarily alter them as they do build upon the foundation they've already achieved. People don't typically alter themselves with all of the many ways in which you suggested above. They improve themselves. Tell me with your degree did your personality change? Or did you simply become smarter because all of the work you did previous to getting your degree and during school enabled you to learn. Alochol doesn't change your personality, it simply brings out the audacious side of you that because of whatever inhibitions your afraid to bring out under normal circumstances. It gives people an excuse for their behavior. I like that excuse as well. :lol:

Although i thorougly enjoy this debate, for the sake of the forum it will have to end sometime. So if i dont respond to your reponse, dont take it as neglection on my part.

The Gartner: thanks for synapsis of that movie, i've actually never seen it but i think i might go check it out now.

 

[x5o]

Agreed, this debate could go on forever, especially given that we have polar opposite views on the issue.

"Improving", "Building upon" vs. "Altering" or "Changing"...............I believe them to be the same.......you're simply getting into semantics.

Alcohol most definitely changes ones personlity.

I am not afraid to bring out anything under any circumstances.

Again, in conclusion, we can agree that this is probably not the forum for a debate of this sort as we have strayed faaaaaaaaaar from the topic of this forum.

Good debating with you though.

 

[Kramer3]

Agreed, good debating with you

 

[flux]

So the essay contest is over? :wink: