HUGE POST------things that are proven in studies to help hai

[michael barry]

This is a long one. I'll cover Roxythromicyn, caffeine, copper peptides, latanaprost, minoxidil, proanthocyanidns, abscorbic acid, Jack Daniels (yes, Jack Daniels), and my own little test of Revivogen down below. Enjoy young gents and good luck. Reasearch and self test for four months any indication on in a test patch of your own body hair to see if a product is an effective anti-androgen (inhibits body hair growth) or a stimulant (encourages it) before making a long term financial commitment to any treatment. The big three is a good place to start, but there are other things that do indeed help. If youre young and just starting to thin..............youre lucky that its now. Here goes:




Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 609

Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:57 pm Post subject:

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Im going to post from the 2006 EHRS society absracts and from other sources concerning tests on WHOLE HAIR FOLLICLES in test tubes and sustances that DIRECTLY AFFECT THEM>

Roxythromicin.
Caffeine.
RU58841

I'll also touch on Latanaprost and Minoxidil and Proanthocyandin B-3 and abscorbic acid (in Prox-N) and Jack Daniels whiskey (dont laugh....you'll see).

Roxythromycin is now in Clinical trials (I have a link) for Androgenetic Alopecia. It was tested in Human hair follicles, obtained from plastic surgery with informed consent, cultured for 6 days. Hair elongation was 1.96 mm's on average in the control group...........................................compared to 3.4 mm's in the Roxythromicyn group (it was only 3.32 mm's in the highest dosage Roxythromicyn group). This is all in vitro. ENTIRE HAIR FOLLICLES IN TEST TUBES.

11 men with Androgenetic Alopecia were given topical roxythromicyn (which is a topical immunosuppressant, anti-microbial, anti-fungal) and 4 showed great improvement, 4 slight improvement, 3 no change in 6 months time. Its now, again, in clinical trials. Its an attempt to interefere with T-cells in the immune response most likely, but it obviously positively effected hairs in test tubes. Source EHRS. http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/pr ... =92842.pdf



Now, Caffeine...................some of this will come from Alpecin's site also as well as the EHRS. "Hair follicles from 14 biopsies, taken from vertex areas of male Androgenetic Alopecia patients, were cultivated fro 120-192 hours in the presence of normal William's E medium (control) or William's E medium containing different concentarions of testosterone and/or caffeine. Testosterone alone with the follicles suppressed growth . The WHOLE HAIR FOLLICLES have, of course, alpha five reductase enzymes in the outer root sheath.................so there was DHT made in those test tubes. Over a six to ten day period the Department of Dermatology and Allergology at the Fredrich-Shiller University in Jena, Germany and the University Hospital Schelswig-Holstein, University of Lubeck, Germany found that Testosterone alone inhibited growth, Caffeine alone stimulated growth, and that testosterone and caffeine together produced normal growth and EVEN SLIGHTLY above normal growth. All entire hairs in test tubes.

Tested in vivo over four months, the caffeine complex seen hair counts increase in Androgenetic Alopecia men, but I have not committed the specifics to memory.



RU58841. We all know this. Receptor blocker, Bryan posted on it. Whole follicles for two weeks. Beard hair denied testosterone slows growth, head hair denied testosterone grew much better. Head hair with just testosterone had growth slowed 23% in regards to keratinocyte activity and 12% polymerase DNA/RNA activity. WHOLE FOLLICLES


Copper peptides in South Korea................this was written:
Here is one study:
P38 THE EFFECTS ON HAIR GROWTH OF TRIPEPTIDE-COPPER COMPLEX L-ALANINE-L-HISTIDINE-L-LYSINE-CU2+(AHK-CU) IN CULTURED HUMAN OCCIPITAL DERMAL PAPILLA CELLS
Pyo HK, Yoo HG, Choi SJ, Won CH, Chung JH, Cho KH, Eun HC, Kim KH
Department of Dermatology, Seoul National University College of Medicine, Laboratory of Cutaneous Aging & Hair Biology Research, Clinical Research Institute, Seoul National University Hospital, Seoul, Korea

INTRODUCTION: Tripeptide copper complex L-Alanyl-L-histidyl-L-lysine Cu2+ (AHK-Cu) is a growth factor for many kinds of cells. AHK-Cu is also known to increase growth factors such as VEGF and FGF, and to promote wound healing. OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the effect of tripeptide copper complex L-Alanyl-L-histidyl-L-lysine Cu2+ (AHK-Cu) on hair growth. METHODS: Cultured human dermal papilla cells (DPCs) were exposed to AHK-Cu (1 x 10-9 mol/L). The cytotoxicity and proliferation of cultured human DPCs were evaluated by MTT assay (3-(4,5-dimethylthiazol-2-yl)-2,5-diphenyl tetrazolium bromide). Annexin V-FITC staining was used for identifying apoptotic cells. We measured the expression of caspase-3, PARP (poly ADP-ribose polymerase), Bcl-2, and Bax by Western blot. We measured the length of the hair follicle in vitro organ culture. RESULTS: AHK-cu stimulated growth of DPCs. Apoptotic cells were decreased compared with control. The level of caspase-3 and PARP was decreased in AHK-cu treated group than serum-free control. In human hair follicle organ culture, the elongation of hair was increased over 155% in AHK-cu treated group. CONCLUSION: AHK-Cu seems to promote the survival of human DPCs by anti-apoptotic effects. Those results were confirmed by the decrease of the expression of caspase-3 and PARP, and by the increase of the ratio of Bcl-2/Bax. AHK-cu promotes the growth of human hair follicle and also has anti-apoptotic effects on the DPCs, which may play an important role in hair growth.


The study above didn't use whole follicles. HOWEVER, the peptides protected the hair cells from apoptosis, excited their growth RIGHT ALONG with what we would expect given to how well they did in phase 2 trials, where they achieved improved hair counts slightly better than minoxidil. The peptides tested were the alanine/histidine/lysine amino complex that is available in Tricomin and American Crew Revitalize.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract. The scientists studying it in Japan attribute its growth induction in hair to it being an analogue of prostaglandin F2alpha. They used another analogue of prostaglandin F2alpha, isorophyl unoprostone, and got stimulatory effects in the mice hair they tested it on in vivo. They ended in saying that the "stimulatory effects of PGF2 and PGE2 on hair growth have been discussed with regard to the role of protien kinase C and mast cells. This is what the scientists think about how this drug effects hair growth. It improved hair growth on macaques.

Minoxidil. Opens potassium channels, ups prostaglandin release, fights hardening of the connective tissue sheath that restricts dermal papilla enlargement that we see in male pattern baldness, ups VEGF.................very explainable.


Jack Daniels for hair?

quote:
Separation and identification of phytoestrogenic compounds isolated from bourbon.
Alcohol Alcohol Suppl. 1987; 1:551-5 (ISSN: 1358-6173)Rosenblum ER ; Van Thiel DH ; Campbell IM ; Eagon PK ; Gavaler JS
University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine, PA.

There is considerable evidence that several plant metabolites have estrogenic properties. Given that many alcoholic beverages are made from plants which have been shown to possess estrogenic activity, we considered the possibility that alcoholic beverages may contain estrogenically active substances. To evaluate this hypothesis we first extracted and then used gas chromatography/mass spectrometry to identify two phytoestrogens, biochanin A and beta-sitosterol in the bourbon extracts. Based on these findings we suggest that the feminization observed in chronic male alcoholics with liver disease may reflect, at least in part, the presence of biologically active phytoestrogens in the alcoholic beverages they consume.

PreMedline Identifier: 3426733


That was posted by Wookie on hair loss-R. Tom Hagerty mentioned a man that was admitted to a clinic in his hometown who drank a PINT of JD a day. He had very little body hair growth, b****-tits, 3+edema of his legs, testicular atropy, a phucked up liver.........................and probably a pretty damn good head of hair. Ive been interested in beta sis for a while because I think it mimics estrogen. Recently its been found out that stone/bronze/iron age Celts in Ireland used Pine oil as a hair gel. Pine oil has (BY VERY FAR) the highest amount of beta-sis of any known substance (about 18%). Avacoda oil only has .5% but is accredited with Mexicans having such a low incidence of prostate problems because they eat tons of the stuff. Rice bran oil (in American Crew Revitalize) has .75%. Its in sugar cane pulp (Garnier Fructis shampoo) and Soy also (.5%). I think it inhibits receptors or mimics estrogen in some fashion and yes, Im going to test it on my body hair to see what it does (currently a bit of avocado oil thats in garnier fructis hair gel, but going to buy some pine oil to really test it.................will let folks know in about six months. Its on the back of one hand---Im a fairly hairy guy).


Proanthocyanidins http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... query_hl=7 That was used to show it sped up hair cell growth 140 percent in vitro (epilitheal cells) and induced anagen in vivo.

why is that important if it only is a hair cell test? because as a stimulant the results were exactly the opposite of what DHT and T does to hair cells and whole hair follicles in tests. It grew hair where male hormone has been shown to slow its growth or even kill it (apoptosis) in in vitro tests.



Now for my own experience with revivogen. I used revivogen on one wrist for 2 and a half months. Both my arms are fairly hairy (good density). I take propecia and drink green tea (which should inhibit type one DHT a tad). Revivogen has beta sis and saw palmetto and vitamin b6 (lessens receptor expression). The hair on the treated wrist grew very weakly compared to the untreated one. I was so convinced, I stopped my little test a bit earlier than I should have because I was persuaded that revivogen was a good anti-androgen. I have come to believe that since I was inhibiting DHT already to a great extent, that the beta-sis, and the .1-.4% of beta sis in the saw palmetto extract and the lessened receptor production induced by the vitamin b6 or pyrxidine (the correct and expensive form of it) is why it worked so well. It either must have mimicked estrogen or blocked the receptors to a great degree, because the hair growth on the treated wrist (despite the grape seed proanthocyandins therein) was really shitty. It must have lost androgenic stimulation of Testosterone also. I was convinced, anyway.


A HUGE amount of researchers would have to be dead wrong for Stephen to be right. Maybe they are, as Stenn and Costarialis are working for a company called FOLLICA now on a "novel" hair growth product at the cellular level. We, over at hairsite, have not been able to find out why they are either splitting time with Aderans or have left it completely. Aderans has STILL NOT ENTERED phase one HM tests. ICX is promising it will begin phase 2 shortly, but have been delayed all year. They are only going to test one measly f****ing centimeter of scalp. This is NOT inspiring confidence in those of us who have followed cloning.

One more additive.........................body hair to the scalp for the most part has seen the circumference of the body hair being so weak be a huge issue for men whove taken the plunge. Was reading a post the other day by a Doctor who does them, saying you need 2-4 body hairs on your head for 1 scalp hair moved to get the same hair mass in his experience. Its not enlarging to head hair width. A Korean Study over six years time demonstrated that head hair moved to the body will adjust its anagen phase to fit that of whatever recipeint site its placed on, BUT its VOLUME stays the same. Like that big fat black hair Colin Jahoda moved to Amanda Reynolds arm. It indicates that there is a genetic difference in head and body hair just like every single test on the subject has shown thusfar

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michael barry
Experienced Poster



Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 609

Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 8:03 pm Post subject:

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Forgot,

On abscorbic acid (in prox-N)


Vitamin C is also known as "ascorbic acid" but what exactly is ascorbic acid 2-phosphate?


http://www.ehrs.org/conferenceabstracts ... 37-kim.htm



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quote:
P37 ASCORBIC ACID 2-PHOSPHATE PROMOTES HAIR GROWTH
Kim MK, Kim JC, Sung YK
Department of Immunology, Kyungpook National University School of Medicine, Daegu, Korea

Cultured dermal papilla cells exhibit normal fibroblast-like morphology at early passage. In contrast to the dermal fibroblast, cultured dermal papilla cells can induce hair follicle growth in vivo, although their inductivity is gradually lost during subculture. It is known that ascorbic acid 2-phosphate (Asc 2-P) stimulates growth of dermal fibroblasts by enhanced production of collagen synthesis. However, it is not known whether Asc 2-P stimulates growth of dermal papilla cells and promotes hair follicle growth. In this study, Asc 2-P stimulated growth of dermal papilla cells and promoted hair follicle growth in organ culture model. On the other hand, Asc 2-P did not significantly promoted the growth of outer root sheath keratinocytes. The mRNA level of IGF-1 was increased 3.8-folds with Asc 2-P treatment while that of HGF, VEGF and KGF were not affected in dermal papilla cells. Versican expression in dermal papilla was also increased by Asc 2-P. However, the mRNA level of collagen types I and III was not affected by Asc 2-P in dermal papilla cells. These data, first time to our knowledge, demonstrate that Asc 2-P stimulates growth of dermal papilla cells and promote hair follicle growth in vitro. The growth stimulation of dermal papilla cells and induction of hair follicle growth seems to be, at least in part, mediated by IGF-1 over-expression from dermal papilla cells by Asc 2-P. In addition, these data suggests that signalling pathway that leads to versican expression is activated by Asc 2-P and Asc 2-P may keep dermal papilla cells to maintain hair-inducing activity by regulating versican.





Also, things that inhibit androgen receptor expression......................................Retin-A, vitamin b6 in its pryixidine form, gensitien soy isoflavone.

Things that have proanthocyaindins,,,,,,,,,pine bark, grape seeds, green apple peels, cherry bark, barley, hops...................see all this in old remedies for baldness. The ancients werent so stupid were they? Thousands of years of trial and error

 

[HARM1]

WOW great post !
But I do not get it, what does testug outside of the body tell you ?I mean is much different then cells in the body.

another thing- You claimed T alone kills hair fallciles, that maybe true, BUT people of lack of 5AR2 never grow bald , so maybe the T is not really that strong.
And, well if DHT alone can kill fallicles, where does the emune system come in? Could it be that DHT destroies MHC ( which is a self identifieng molecule)
And then the the emune system sees the fallicle as a forign object and attacks?

 

[Strat54]

Well, a few days ago I was joking about drinking and pouring Jack Daniel’s……… go figure.
http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?t=28953

 

[iamnaked]

Great post, Michael Barry - I just wanted to point out with regard to:

"Roxythromycin is now in Clinical trials (I have a link) for Androgenetic Alopecia. It was tested in Human hair follicles, obtained from plastic surgery with informed consent, cultured for 6 days. Hair elongation was 1.96 mm's on average in the control group...........................................compared to 3.4 mm's in the Roxythromicyn group (it was only 3.32 mm's in the highest dosage Roxythromicyn group). This is all in vitro. ENTIRE HAIR FOLLICLES IN TEST TUBES. "


... that elongation is not the holy grail of curing hair loss. You either want thicker hairs or a longer growth phase. Making hair grow faster doesn't mean much. A mutltitude of things will make hairs grow quicker, including stressing hair follicles (which is bad for them).

Finally, in vitro tests have been known to conflict with in vivo findings. There is only a finite amount of testosterone/DHT in an in-vitro test. In an in-vivo, it is being continuously replenished.

 

[michael barry]

I am naked,

Roxythromicyn was tested in vivo and improved growth in 8 out of 11 men. It is now clinical trials in human beings. So it will be around five years for it to ever to be really released to the public. You can buy it at a very overpriced rate at lipoxidil, or make your own if you know how to mix it with a correct topical that wont interfere with it and get it down to follicle depth for a good timed release (Im no chemist).

Most indications for things like hair will get tested on hair cells, and hair follicles in test tubes FIRST before they get put in people (human tests cost mucho dinero). Roxymothricyn has apparently done well enough to get further testing as a hairloss indication.

Directly attempting to counter the immuno attack on the hair follicle after androgens "do something" to it is a pretty novel approach. Copper peptides try to counter the superoxides the immune system sends at the follicle, but otherwise try to repair the damage. This roxymothricyn actually tries to interefere with the T-cells in the attack before it really happens in the scalp. Its interesting from a scientific standpoint. It may not be a treatment all by itself thats super successful. But if one combined it with finasteride, and prox-N.....................the results might be rather astonishing over time.

 

[michael barry]

Harm 1 wroteosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:01 am Post subject:

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WOW great post !
But I do not get it, what does testug outside of the body tell you ?I mean is much different then cells in the body.

another thing- You claimed T alone kills hair fallciles, that maybe true, BUT people of lack of 5AR2 never grow bald , so maybe the T is not really that strong.
And, well if DHT alone can kill fallicles, where does the emune system come in? Could it be that DHT destroies MHC ( which is a self identifieng molecule)
And then the the emune system sees the fallicle as a forign object and attacks?
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People without 5ar2 never go bald...............thats correct, they dont. However when just plain testosterone is added to hair cells or whole hairs in test tubes, they also inhibit growth. Since many on propecia witness a slow recession of hair on it, many (including me) have begun to think of DHT as the great initiator of baldness, and perhaps over time hairs that are genetically predisposed begin to have a sensitivity to just plain testoserone also. This might be why guys that use finasteride AND apply sprio a couple of times a day are happy with keeping what they have for a very long time. They dramatically lessen the amount of both DHT and T that is uptaken by the receptor sites.


"Where does the immune system come in"------Man, I wish we knew. Dr. Proctor according to Bryan has written about how immune system marker cells gather around predisposed follicles in higher than normal numbers and seemingly "mark" the follicle for attack, just like they do in auto-immune disorders where the immune system attacks things that it shouldnt. Thats how the immune system works in a nutshell, the marker cells travel throughout your body (they are made in you chest, thighs, and underarm areas........and I think somewhere else too) and travel the body looking for any foreign invader (bacteria, viruses, infections) and "mark" them, then T-cells show up and direct an attack against the invader...............and eventually killer cells are produced and show up and kill the invader. If you didnt have an immune system, youd live a short, sickly life like someone with AIDS.............which is Aquired Immuno Deficiency Virus. Cyclosporine, and immunosuppressant used in organ tranpslants, has been effective according to Dr. Proctor in treating alopecia in organ recipients and has even regrown fairly substantial amounts of cosmetically -acceptable hair, but its long term usage would kill you.

Roxythromicyn, is acti-microbial, and anti-fungal, and suppresses the activity of T-cells locally. Perhaps the actions of the anti-bacterial and anti-fungal nature would protect someone's scalp from infections, etc. during usage so it would be proven safe. Thats why they do trials. However, the immune process scars the follicle structure and damages, ages, and thins the skin around the follicle to a great degree. Getting hair back on a shiny bald area is practically impossible because the hair cells themselves have underwent apoptosis, or cellular death. Whether its the androgens, the immune system, or both (probably both) that caused that is an intriguing question..............................

However, if you can just keep androgenic transcription to a low minimum by using something like propecia and spironolactone (2X a day) or (my opinion) revivogen...............your scalp would be hosting very little androgenic stimuli and you could perhaps keep your hair for many, many years.


You asked about what specifically garnered the immune system's attention. ..............................The dermal papilla can release mitogens (growth enhancers) in reaction to stimuli or antigens (growth inhibitors) to androgenic stimuli or it can simply do nothing. In body hair, we know that obviosly growth enhancers are released, because if you put spironolactone or fatty acids (Ive done this) on your body hair, you'll get less of it after a few months in the treated area. But in the head hair...............antigens are released in folks with male pattern baldness. I think people who dont have male pattern baldness, nothing gets released and their hair isnt' sensitive to testosterone and its metabolites (my opinion). Antigens are mentioned alot in articles about the immune system, perhaps their presence gets the immune system to see the follicle as a foriegn body.

But, perhaps not. Dr. Rolf Paus, a famous hair researcher from Germany, thinks there is some tiny subclinical inflammation in or around the hair follicle itself that gets the immune system to attack it. Its a long pronounced process that ages the skin around the follicle, damages the microcapillaries that feed the follilce, scars the follicle structure, hardens the connective tissue sheath around the follicle's dermal papilla (making it hard for the DP to enlarge and make a big hair root), damage follicle DNA with superoxides, and sends various chemcial growth inhibitors like TGF-beta 1 at the follicle cells. Big ugly attack.

It all stops if you get castrated though. And you stop losing hair...........................but dont regain much of what you had lost. It takes other things to help with this. Long lost hair though................apoptosis and skin damage makes that pretty much out of the question.

There has been one experiment where vellus hairs were moved to immuno deficient mice and they regrew fairly well, but we dont know conclusively what the androgen levels were in those very sick mice. Hard to say.



BY the way, on testing outside the body........................man its alot easier and much much much cheaper to extract a few hairs, put em' in test tubes, and add substances suspected to help and see if they aid follicle growth or keep follicles alive longer (they usually only last about two weeks outside the body) than to run a trial with fifty people (and risk any side effects) that costs a fortune (insurance costs, etc). Its more realistic too. Researchers, of course, would like to see substances that counteract what happens inside the dermal papilla when androgens are transcripted, but this is super-small happenstance. Its hard to tell what is going on in there at such a small level. Until then anti-androgens combined with peptides is a good strategy to hold onto what one has. The roxythromicyn might help further by much lessening the attack.


Look at this possible regimine for instance...........finasteride, spironolactone applied with prox-N twice a day, roxythromycin at night topically, nizoral a couple of times a week..............................If one kept losing hair on that.....................then their genetic tendency to bald would probably be overwhelming and they should just give up. I wish I was 20 and just starting to lose it now as opposed as in my mid-thirties and NW3. Im pretty confident I'd have kept my hair with whats available now. Ive held on to what Ive had for a good five years now. I dont use all of the above though........................Currently just finasteride, prox-N. Im kinda lazy as I know getting back the temporal loss is pretty much impossible and Im waiting (like everybody else) for those cloning researchers. That might be 5-7 more years though as they have obviously had some setbacks in my opinon. They are finally going to start phase 2 tests at ICX, but the SOB's are just going to test one measly square centimeter on 20 men. This does not inspire confidence in me at all. It will be a few years yet (5). I hope Im wrong about this though.

Best of luck

 

[htownballa]

Michael, if you were young and just starting to lose it, what regimen would you use for yourself

 

[michael barry]

htwnballa.,

There really are some choices out there. Id start with finasteride.

Then either topical sprio 2 times a day or revivogen once a day.


That would be my anti-androgen routine.


That alone might be enough, but one might consider that caffeinated shampoo or a copper peptide product like American Crew, Tricomin, Folligen, or prox-n if they wanted really robust growth. I know that spironolactone can be applied with prox-n, but not stored together.


Just finasteride and revivogen on a guy just starting to see recession (and perhaps nizoral a couple of times a week, and that caffeinated shampoo on other days) should keep a guy in hair for a good while in my opinion unless he really has strong baldness genes. That would not be a very expensive regimine.


We know (I do for sure) that finasteride alone just isn't enough as I slowly receeded when I used it alone for years. I tested revivogen on my wrist about a year back while still using finasteride and it definitely inhibited hair growth there. We know from animal studies that sprio twice a day will do that too. Thats a choice up to the guy. I wonder about another topical like a peptide interfereing with the revivogen though. I dont thin the copper peptides would do this. American Crew Revitalize has the same peptides that tricomin does and it also has some rice bran oil and saw palmetto extract which I think would have a weak anti-androgenic effect if they dont react with the peptides in the bottle with them. Thats an intriguing idea.




To play it conservative with things absolutely proven to work though.................it would be finasteride, sprio twice a day, pehaps nizoral two or three times a week. If one was young.........



You young fellas are lucky. Us old fucks were told there was absolutely nothing we could do, minoxidil only worked in the back, etc. There is much more that really can help a man hold onto what he has now.

 

[CCS]

we need to get some follicles from people difficient in 5ar2 and put them in a test tube the various levels of testosterone. they we can see if testosterone actually does any damage or helps hairs or does nothing, since there will be no DHT production.

 

[Felk]

we need to get some follicles from people difficient in 5ar2 and put them in a test tube the various levels of testosterone. they we can see if testosterone actually does any damage or helps hairs or does nothing, since there will be no DHT production.

Time to go bag ourselves a psuedohermaphrodite!

 

[CCS]

no, just send a mocking bird after one.

 

[Felk]

...sorry, im not familiar with that phrase... whats a mocking bird?

If you mean you think i was mocking you, i wasn't, you read it wrong, just the idea of going over to the Dominican Republic and tracking down a "psuedo", it conjured up a very comical image in my mind... dressed up in Khaki and wearing those british explorer helmets, brandishing an enormous butterfly net...

 

[Bryan]

Actually, we don't need to get hair follicles from pseudo's to test the effect of testosterone. All we need to do is add a reasonable amount of dutasteride to any balding scalp hair follicles to prevent the formation of any DHT. I can't understand why that obvious experiment hasn't already been done long ago.

Bryan

 

[CCS]

a mocking bird is a bird that rips hair out of the backs of live dogs and cats and flys away and uses the hair to make its nest.

 

[CCS]

can we buy beta sis cheaply, in tables perhaps? I don't want to smell like a brewery.

 

[michael barry]

Collegechemistry student,

On beta sis.......................thats my own little pet theory. Im just beginning to test it. I think it probably mimicks estrogen and competes for androgen receptors. I'd love for it to be an all natural receptor blocker.

The reason I think it might do this are the article wookie posted about long term whiskey/bourbon alchoholics and the beta sis therein. Beta sis is the one thing that saw palmetto, pygeum, nettle, pumpkin seeds all have in common.

Im currently putting a tad of avocado oil on the back of one hand. Im ordering some pine oil.


There is nothing in nature other than pine oil or Tall oil (what its usually called) that really as alot of beta-sitosterol therein.
Tall oil has between 10-20%. It averages something like 18%. It would probably also have some proanthocyanidin content as pine bark has this. Its made from pine cones.

Corn oil has about 9%, but its associated with cancer in mice when used topically a great deal.

Rice bran oil has .75%
Avocado oil has .5%
Corn fibre oil (whatever the hell that is) has 12%
Olive oil has .2%
Saw palmetto oil has .1%-.4%

Its supposed to be in sugar cane pulp also and a few other things.
Ive seen some of this stuff in hair products (L'Oreal's Garnier fructis shampoo, American Crew Revitalize shampoo and spray).

There has been a patent taken out in Japan for beta sis as a baldness indication.

Iron and Bronze age Irish Celts used it in their hair (why?) as well as other plant oils.

I'm gonna put it on the back of my hand for a few months and compare the hair growth (I, like many of us men with male pattern baldness, am fairly hairy) and see if I get less hair than the other hand like Revivogen did for my one wrist vs. the other.

Who knows? might work, might now. We'll know when Im finished as I'll log on and tell everybody if I had any luck.

 

[CCS]

let me know where you get your tall oil. if i add 5 drops to my minoxidil, that should be affordable.